Dr. Tovah Klein on Raising Resilient Kids in Times of Uncertainty

Debbie:

Hey Tovah, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Tovah Klein:

Thank you, I’m excited to be here.

Debbie:

So I’m really excited to get into your new book, which I’m just noticing was a USA Today National Bestseller. That’s very cool. And it’s called Raising Resilience, How to Help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty, which we are living through. I feel like we have been for the past 10 years, but every week it seems to get more and more uncertain. So a very timely book. But before we dive into that, you’re a new guest for the show. I’ve already read your formal bio, but would you take a few minutes and talk about it? You have a really interesting background. Tell us a little bit about how you came to write this book and your personal why in this space.

Dr. Tovah Klein:

Yeah. So the idea of this book came, well, the original idea came a number of years ago, well before the pandemic, because when you write a first book, which I did, How Toddlers Thrive, then immediately the pressure is, when’s your second book coming out? I was like, whoa, just wrote the first one. But I started at some point to think about the two areas of my work, big areas of my work that I see as going together, but often think, people ask me, why do you do these two separate areas of work? Which is that I run a center for young children and families at Barnard College. And I work with families and children of all ages now, because when you’re in a career long enough, that’s what happens. And that’s the everyday challenges, whether that’s learning or getting out the door for younger children, or I’m concerned about my child, do they need extra support, whatever it is, up through, say, divorce and tensions in the house. And then I have another area of work where I started years ago working with children and families who have lived through devastating situations. So that’s like 9-11, the tsunami in Japan, but also on an individual level. So children who’ve been abused, I worked with in pediatric AIDS during kind of a height of the AIDS crisis in America. So I’m interested in both trauma when really bad things happen and how the relationship can be a buffer for that. And then every day, that parent-child relationship and what that does. And so what I realized the commonality in my work is, is this concept of uncertainty. And that’s where the book started. It was, what I’m helping parents deal with every single day, it doesn’t matter what year, is that there’s always uncertainty. 

You don’t know how your child’s going to wake up today. You might have new work pressures or financial pressures. You may be trying to figure out who your child is, like your really little throne, like what’s going on here. And then there’s the world, there’s your community, and then there’s the world. And they’re always shifting. And so I thought, I need to write a book on uncertainty and what that does to parents and children, how we can help children thrive. And then I kind of put it aside because life happens. I wrote a full proposal and then the pandemic came. And in March of 2020, I thought, that book on uncertainty, this feels really uncertain. And that’s really how I came to this. And then, you know, once the proposal was bought by HarperCollins, and we did the first draft, I have a wonderful co-writer, by the way, Billy Fitzpatrick. And I had the book out there, the first manuscript, and the editor read it and said, you know, this is a book about resilience. And I said, okay, that’s fine, but that’s just a buzzword. And she was like, No, Tovah, everything you do is about resilience. You’re talking about the resilience of children. And we went back and forth because I said, I don’t do buzzwords. I’m not superficial. And that led to her saying to me, reframe this book and own this. Own this concept of resilience so that you can help families really help their children adjust to life. That’s what you’re doing. And I thought, OK, she’s not wrong. So there was this big reframing, not so much rewriting the content, but reframing it. And that’s the book here is raising resilience. And it really has to do with raising children in uncertain times. But what I want to say to every listener is every time is uncertain. Yes, right now feels very uncertain to us, wherever you are in the world. But the truth is every day is uncertain always, whether you’re living through a war or depression or a new election, whatever it is, it’s always uncertain.

Debbie:

Yeah, unfortunately. I’m going to just add that this is the topic of so much conversation between me and my therapist is like, I find uncertainty, especially when it comes to my child, intolerable. It is so hard to navigate that we don’t have control. But what I love about your book is it’s helping us not have control, but kind of own our experience and best show up for the times that we’re living in, in a way that can help us feel a little more peace and calm in the process. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think you’ve achieved it. All right. So you mentioned that resilience is a buzzword. And before we hit record, I said that the word resilience, think, especially parents raising neurodivergent kids, I think we have somewhat of an uncomfortable relationship with the idea of resilience. And we can talk about that more, but I would love to know how you define resilience. What does that mean?

Dr. Tovah Klein:

Yeah. So I really think of resilience, I’m to tell you what I think it is not. So often the myth about resilience is that a person has it or doesn’t, and nothing could be further from the truth. It’s not like tough love or this like tough strength. That’s not what resilience is. I think we get thrown because when something really bad happens to a person and they eventually get through it and they get back up, we go, she’s resilient. But really when I think about resilience and I look at the literature, whether that’s on stress and coping or any of the pieces that say, how do we help children through life? What I define resilience as is the ability to adapt, to adjust, and to be flexible. And flexibility is very hard. It’s very hard for young children. And it takes on a special sort of case with neurodivergent children depending on what their kind of wiring and issues are. But it’s that ability to adapt and adjust and it’s built over time in the everyday relationship with parents. So whether your child is on the spectrum, has, you know, it’s twice exceptional, is kind of down the middle of the road, typical, whoever they are, they need help building this ability to handle life.

That’s really what I see this as, handling life. And that doesn’t mean kicking them out of the nest, you know, and saying, just go, you’re on your own. It means letting children know, I’m here for you. I’m with you. I’m going to be your stability. call it the anchor. And I’m going to help you in all of these years that you’re with me on a day-to-day basis. And I impact that pillar by pillar to say, resilience is this dynamic that’s between the parent and child and then resides in the child so that they can handle any hurdle that comes their way. But it doesn’t mean they do it on their own. And I think we often think with resilience that it’s like this individual characteristic. And we think of it in a tough way. And I think that’s just unfair to any child.

Debbie:

I appreciate that definition. As you were explaining that, was thinking, too, of Michelle Borba says that resilient children are made, not born, that it’s not like some people come in with this, which I think is comforting to know. And also, the way you’ve described that, it feels accessible to everybody, right? And I think that is where some of that tension in this relationship with resilience and the neurodivergent community for parents is, like, well, if this is what you need to be resilient and those are things my child has trouble accessing, then we’re out of luck, right? But the way you present this, and we’ll get into your pillars in a few minutes, but it is accessible to everybody because it’s really about our relationship with our kids.

Dr. Tovah Klein:

It’s totally about a relationship with our children. And in a child who’s neurodiverse, which, I mean, obviously every listener knows that’s a broad category, right? It’s not like, here’s what neurodiversity is. It’s who’s my child. And as we get to know who our child is, even though sometimes you’re thrown back like, wait, I thought I understood what you needed. And once again, I’m a little bit at a loss which happens for every parent, as we get to know them, we say, how can I support this child? And as you support them, you’re building this strength in them that doesn’t always show itself. But I could tell every parent it’s there or it’s being developed. And that’s what you need to know when they melt down for the umpteenth time. And you’ve gotten through it somehow. And then you come back together and you say, that was a rough go between us, wasn’t it? And I’m sorry I didn’t handle that better, but I’m still with you. I still love you. And I’m glad you’re feeling better. That reconnection is building a piece of the child that goes, I’m not alone. We can get through this. I’m not alone. That’s the basis of resilience.

Debbie:

Yeah, that feels, it feels comforting and doable and yeah, and good. It just feels good in my body even to hear you say that. So in the book, you have lots of really useful concepts and the visuals are helpful for me. So I love this idea of an anchor and a container. The container is what I feel I’ve been for the past six years or something of my now 20 year old neurodivergent kid’s life that has been my role to be the container. But can you explain what those concepts are and how parents can be that for their kids?

Dr. Tovah Klein:

Yeah, so when I think of anchor and container, I’m thinking of a number of things. And again, I write about it, but the anchor is this stability that every child needs. It’s what we call security or a safe place, a safe base. In my first book, How Toddlers Thrive, I write a lot about the safe base, like you are their rock. And as children get older, we often forget that they still need us. Yeah, they might be moving out further in the world and your neurodivergent child may be doing it on a different or slower or zigzaggy or path than other children, but they’re still gaining independence in whatever ways they’re gaining it at school, at home. And what they need to know is that they are not alone in this world. And that anchor says to them, I’ve got this even in your worst moments. It’s in those worst moments that children need to know they’re gonna still be accepted. They haven’t alienated anybody. The container is what I think about as in a relationship, there’s always two people, which sounds so obvious, but sometimes we forget this. In this case, there’s a parent and there’s a child. There’s only one adult there, which sometimes we forget is the parent. We’re the adult, even if that’s a five foot 11 child, there’s still the child. And so I think of it as the space between. It’s literally when I put my arms out, it’s like there’s the parent, there’s the child, and there’s this space in between where the parent is able to convey, I can handle all of these emotions, even when it’s hard. The good of you, the bad of you, I say they’re rotten, not because they’re a rotten person, but all those behaviors that are gonna come.

And it’s the part of the relationship that says, I’m gonna, in that anchoring, I’m gonna weave a story for you. And you know, I call it in my book, the narrative, but I use this a lot when I work, particularly individually with parents or in parent groups. What’s the narrative to help a child understand what’s going on, either within them or around them? You know, yes, mommy and daddy have been fighting sometimes and you’ve heard us, but we want you to know we still love each other. That’s not your fault that we’re fighting. It’s this narrative, a bad thing happened today, what do you know about it? I want to hear what you know, and I’m gonna tell you what I know. It’s this creating of safety that’s the container. And that has all to do with emotions. And in our ability to handle our children’s emotions, which is our challenge, especially those negative ones, yeah.

Debbie:

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you talk about that. You talk quite a lot in the book about our own baggage, for lack of a better word, that we bring into our dynamic with our kids from our childhood experiences and our own triggers, and that they can lead us to really set up guardrails in kind of the wrong places. So can you talk about what we’re bringing into this dynamic from the get-go? 

Dr. Tovah Klein:

Yeah, in many ways, I think this is the most important contribution in my book. So which is it’s all about us is how I say it with parents. And I say that lightly and with humor, like, you know, there’s nothing wrong with us as parents, but we’re humans. And here’s the piece, I think that nobody tells us before we become a parent or when we become a parent. I have three children now, young adults, although one of them is like a middle adult. How long can you say young adult? It makes me feel younger. But I’m still their mom. I’m still helping them through life, right? Which is that we bring our full selves, our history, the good of our history, the not so good of our history. We bring that into this relationship with each of our children. And if you have more than one child, it’s a unique relationship with each child. It’s not like one relationship that I have with all three. And it’s that background that we bring. And what happens in relationship with our children, it also happens if you have a partner, is we get pushed for past memories, emotions, and we don’t always know it. You know, I joke around sometimes about like, where did that synapse come from? Like, what piece of me is now on fire with this particular child? I have one child who’s a lot like me and we could push each other. I can push him, he can push me in ways that my other ones don’t. And you have to become aware of what that’s going on within me. Because our emotional reaction to our children is what then drives their sort of next step in their emotional reaction. Because it’s a back and forth. My child’s upset, I get upset or tense or mad. They feel that. They then go up more. I have this graphic in there from Steve Porges about arousal, right? The more aroused we get with our child at a time that they need helping calm, the more aroused they get. So it’s like their arousal, our arousal, then they keep upping us, not because they’re trying to, not because they’re out to get us, but because they can’t do anything else. And so that’s all of the stuff that we bring. That’s our history. And that’s why I have in all the content chapters, not the intro kind of background about stress and why we like control and why we don’t like uncertainty. 

But all the other chapters, I have these reflective questions really with the aim of helping parents stop for a moment and say, hey, what do I bring from childhood? What good stuff that I want to keep? What was I missing? What do I absolutely want to avoid? As a way to start to get to know oneself because awareness is the first step. People often say to me, well, I’m aware, I’m, and I say, stop right there. Awareness is a huge leap forward. Once we can say, that behavior of my child always makes me tense. Why? I remember being in that position as a child. yuck. Then you can start to move forward and say, this is not about me now. I need to work on that piece of me. It also helps us look at our child and say, it is not about you. You’re not a bad human. You’re struggling. It’s the sort of exhale that helps us get through it. So I think that’s a really important piece. I call it the you factor. I have a you factor journal actually on my website. If your listeners go and they put in, I’ll give you the secret code. Tova 24, they put that code in, then they can actually download. I compiled all the questions together in a journal. You know, so you can just do that reflective work yourself. A couple recently told me that both the mom and the dad are doing the journal and then they have discussions about it. I was like, is your marriage okay? They said, yeah, it’s actually helped us communicate better. So I was like, that’s so great. Yeah.

Debbie:

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And you’re so speaking my language. I mean, at Tilt, you know, I’m saying this all the time. people are like, how do I get my kid to do this? How do I? And it’s like, this isn’t about what you need to do for your kid. This is about what you need to do for yourself. So I love and I do love all those reflection questions. I also just want to say I love the mantras that you include in there. You know, not to take them, you know, this isn’t about you, don’t take this personally. I really, I wrote down, I am the grownup, I can handle this. I’m like, I need to like a tattoo on my forehead or something, but it’s so helpful for in the moment.

Dr. Tovah Klein:

Yeah, and you know, we need that because in that moment of emotional arousal, your child is kicking or screaming or melting down, whatever their behaviors are, we get pushed for our worst selves. You know, and everybody talks about triggers. I’m like, well, I want to be a little careful there. Yeah, in trauma, there’s no question there’s triggers. The rest of it, I feel like we need to own this because people will say he triggers me or she triggers me. We have to own that. Say when she does this this happens to me I’ve got to get a hold of that and the sort of in the moment Simplest way is to have a mantra that just comes to you because it helps you feel your feet on the floor again and exhale and When we do that our arousal comes down even if it’s just a little and Then our child feels that they need us to be an adult and get granted. My favorite with the one that I clashed with the most was this mantra of he’s not out to get me. And it would come to me, he’s not out to get me, and I would literally feel myself sort of laughing inside. Like of course he’s not, he’s a two year old or an eight year old or a 12 year old, whatever it was, and I have to be the grown up, and then I have to be the grown up here. And it might mean turning your back for a moment, looking at the wall and exhaling. But we can reground ourselves. are grownups. 

Debbie:

I used to literally just pivot my body away just so I wasn’t right in the line of the energy of fire. Just kind of feel my body and just get grounded, and that would be enough. Yeah.

Dr. Tovah Klein:

And then you come back with a little bit of a smile on your face and that gets conveyed even if they’re still swirling in a very difficult space.

Debbie:

So in your book, Raising Resilience, you present, kind of the core of the book is these five pillars, which I just appreciated so much. And would you just take a few moments, a few minutes? I know we can’t like breeze through them all, but just to kind of introduce them to us.

Dr. Tovah Klein:

Yeah, I can breeze with them. Yeah, so I broke this down because well, people like things broken down, right? And what I teach college students or parents, but college students, I always say to them, in order to understand development, we’re going to break down like cognitive, emotional, social, physical, as if they’re separate areas, but really within a human, they’re all working together. And I did something similar in this book. So I call them the five pillars. It’s not stepwise, it’s not like a built system. You can start anywhere. But I think of the first one that I talk about is security and trust. This is very basic human. Every child needs to feel like they’re not alone. This is the anchor that we talked about earlier. So as the child builds trust in the parent, and again, this happens in your worst moments, I say those are your gifts to every parent listening, and you’re able to get through it, even if it’s rough, even if you don’t do it as well as you’d like, you’re building trust in your child. And when they trust in that relationship, that becomes internalized trust. I’m okay. I’m not alone. So that’s the security and trust. I talk about what I call the balance factor, which is emotional regulation, which for this audience is a really tough one, right? Normally we say like, young children, they’re just not so good at it. They get better, they get better, they get better. But if you have a neurodiverse child, there’s gonna be special challenges in there and they may go very high and very low. And it may be sudden or you might be able to predict it. But that chapter really talks about how we as the parents are their regulator. And that onus is on us and it can be tough sometimes. When it works, it’s beautiful. But it doesn’t mean you’re doing something wrong when it’s not going well. And that is a place that there’s a lot of reflection needed. know, what’s, how do I understand myself in these really challenging moments? And then I talk about emotions there and how children come to understand their emotions, which is kind of the first step. And then in time, come up with coping strategies to handle them with a lot of parent assistance. And I don’t want any parent to feel bad if they feel like, why am I still assisting my 10-year-old so much or my 12-year-old? Because they need it. That’s why. So that’s the motion piece. And then I talk about the freedom trail or agency. This is sort of the step out into the world where children are looking for social connection.

So for the first couple of years, it’s parent child, parent child, certainly infants, toddlers. By preschool in those early elementary years, the peers take on new weight and they wanna be out there. The freedom trail and agency is that ability to move out into the world to feel a real sense of like, have some independence, but also choice. My ideas matter. I can make choices. That’s really this feeling of, you know, we call agency and it’s a great feeling that propels their learning as well. And again, you might be thinking my child has none of that. They probably have some of it. And we underestimate for children with their own challenges. I say find the little places where you’re like, there’s some agency. I’m going to give her a choice on that. Any little moment can lead to that. So and that ties into social connection, which is the peers and other adults in the world, which eventually becomes what we call community, whether that’s school community, whether that’s at your religious place, whether that’s your neighbors, teachers, right? All of those people become community. So it’s taking this sense of trust and kind of worthiness and self and connecting to others. And I think, again, we often have this misnomer that a child has to have many friends.

So people say, she doesn’t have any friends. He doesn’t have a peer group. I really dig a little deeper on that say, does he have one friend? yeah, he’s got this great body and they see each other after school or on the weekends. Children need a friend. They don’t need a whole group. And every child’s different. And then what I think is a really important part of the book is this idea of self-love and self-acceptance. And I will say it’s in there as the fifth pillar, but I think people should start with that one. Which is, how do you help a child accept themselves for who they are? Not feel like they’re less than, not feel like they need to be like someone else. This is particularly important for the people in the Tilt Parenting community because your child is different than the average child. I would say every child is different, when you have a neurodivergent child, it’s maybe more obvious or more challenging. And the way that they get to self-love is the same process for any child, but it comes from the parent really accepting the child for who they are, which can be a huge challenge. When you have that child that you had no idea even existed, let alone isn’t the child you imagine. If you imagined a quiet, listening, sitting still, everyone’s gonna love this child, adorable, whatever. And your child is not that. For whatever reason, the work is on the parent to really say, what’s my challenge here? What do I need to do to come to accept this child and to understand that, what is particularly challenging? Because that piece is what’s so important to the humanity of raising a decent human being one day. I mean, they have their decent moments, children are like, decent, not decent, not decent, not. But our goal is always to raise children who become decent human beings out in the world. When you get a good school report, just clap, or you hear that what may seem small. You know, she turned to a friend the other day and asked if she was okay or could she help her. I say, like, celebrate those moments. That in many ways is more important than, you know, how well they do on the math curriculum. That’s the humanity. And so that chapter really is about what self-acceptance is and how we provide that in our relationship with our child.

Debbie:

Yeah, I loved that chapter. One of the quotes that I pulled out from that is, a child who feels truly seen and appreciated for simply being themselves will rely on this center for the rest of their lives. Like, it feels so paramount to everything that we’re doing here. And yeah, anyway, so I just really, I really loved that. The developing agency pillar. Super interesting. One of the things that jumped out at me too, is looking for the windows of opportunity in all of the challenges. Could you talk a little bit about that? Because I try to in the midst in the throes of the hard stuff say there’s good stuff happening here. I just don’t know where it is yet.

Dr. Tovah Klein:

Yeah, I think of it in two ways. One is it’s sort of like, you know, the gift of adversity. So, you know, think about and write about how in challenging moments, challenging times, know, in these really rough spots of your child there’s gonna be opportunity. And I don’t think you need to identify it at the time, but as I mentioned before, when you reconnect after a big meltdown, blow up, or just, I completely misunderstood what you needed. Like I did not know. And saying that to a child, I really didn’t know what you needed at that moment. That was my oversight. And now that you’ve told me, or now that I figured it out, I’m gonna try harder next time to give you what you need. That’s a genuine, I’m not perfect, nor could you be, but nor should you be. And that’s also in the book for a very particular reason, right? Stop the perfection piece. But coming back together in small ways or in big ways is the opportunity to build strength. But also there’s often these, again, we consider small moments that aren’t small moments for children. When you touch base with them, when they tell you something that they did at school that day and you’re smiling and they’re smiling and there’s that shared moment of joy, those are very powerful for children. When you sense that they need a little more independence and you actually come up with a task that they’re willing to do, because you know that they’re going to feel good if they do it, you don’t want to battle them on it, and they set the table and they’re like, look what I just did, right? And you’re like, all right, it’s a placemat with a napkin and fork. you’re like, that’s a big deal. You know, either for a child of a certain age or a child who’s been struggling. And I think we forget because, you know, so many things go through our head. you know, you have everything in the world. I don’t know why this needs to be a big deal that you wrapped one present. It is a big deal for the child who doesn’t usually comply or is not prone to, you know, gracious gestures, it doesn’t hurt to notice those and not make an overly big deal but say thank you Or that yeah, you wrap that present. That does look nice And in those genuine connections they they go deep particularly for a child who’s struggling

Debbie:

I love that so much. mean, that is having those moments of connection. I’m just thinking of just little observations. Like, I notice that you, or whatever. And really having that connection and that eye contact and that warm smile and exuding love and connection, it can be such a powerful thing for a kid who’s probably gotten a lot of negative feedback that day. Yeah.

Dr. Tovah Klein:

A lot of negative. And I think it’s important, you can often do this at bedtime. You know, it’s been a long day, you’ve had your ups and downs and the child’s going to sleep. And if you have, I would say sort of a luxury, but if you can make it a priority, you know, the lights are down, the child’s in bed, maybe you’re sitting with them or you’re laying down with them, they’ll often talk about their day or a worry. And of course you’re like, 830 I’d like to have my time to myself, but it’s a time to stop and then they say can I tell you something and That little they might tell you bad things that happen because that’s a time of sort of like anxiety worry comes floating out You can listen. That does sound hard But they also might tell you something lovely or nice and it’s a time for you to say, that does sound Lovely or you say something to them, you know when we were walking to school today and we saw that red bird in the tree, that was really nice. I’m glad that you saw it too. It can be the most benign moment that says, being with you is special to me.

Debbie:

That’s so nice. Let me ask one last question, then we’ll wrap up. I’m just wondering about kids who, again, we just mentioned about the negative feedback so many kids have received. And we know that a lot of neurodivergent students have lower self-worth. They may not see themselves as resilient, even if we do. And we recognize how resilient they are just for showing up as a neurodivergent person in environments that aren’t necessarily inclusive or welcoming for them. What thoughts do you have on how to help a child kind of change their worldview or their view of themselves when it comes to resilience?

Dr. Tovah Klein:

So again, I would say it’s going to always start with the parent. Like there’s the bad news or the good news because we actually can work on ourselves, which is to really ask yourself, how do I feel about these moments with my child? Because they pick up on it. Mommy actually didn’t think that went so well either. You know, daddy didn’t like that. But for the child, I think it’s two pronged. So it’s empathy and genuine encouragement, genuine belief in the child. So that goes something like, yeah, it does sound like that was hard. You were the only one who didn’t see it that way, couldn’t finish the task, whatever. But I know the effort you put into that. I know. And you were willing to try. So it’s this mixture of you don’t want to overlook the negative because often we want to cheer our children on so badly. We go no, no, no. You did do well. I did see that you were playing with another child. Whatever it is. And the child’s feeling like that wasn’t my experience. But we say so you felt left out. You felt like you were the only one on the sidelines. Yeah, that doesn’t sound so great. You know what? I’m proud of you that you were willing to go. And I’m proud of you for saying you might go next week, too. It keeps giving them both. Yeah, it’s hard and I believe in you. And that’s where resilience comes from. Not that they jump back up and go like, wow, that was great. So no one wanted to play with me. People told me I was doing it wrong. Whatever it is. But yeah, yeah, it’s hard and you were there. And that’s life.

Debbie:

So good. So, okay, we’re gonna wrap this up and I wanna just remind listeners of the name of your book again. It’s called Raising Resilience, How to Help Our Children Thrive in Times of Uncertainty. And I’m imagining you can get it anywhere that books are sold.

Dr. Tovah Klein:

Anywhere books are sold. There’s an edition out just this month in England as well the UK and all the UK affiliates and in the US online your local bookstore Yeah, wherever you get your books.

Debbie:

Awesome. Is there anywhere else that you would like listeners to go online to connect with you?

Dr. Tovah Klein:

Yeah, I have a website tovahklein.com and I’m on Instagram @tovahklein and on LinkedIn as well. And I do have a Facebook page called How Toddlers and Children Thrive.

Debbie:

I’ll have links to all of that in the show notes page. So definitely check that out. And yeah, I just want to thank you so much. I so enjoyed this conversation. I loved the book and lots. You’ve given me lots to think about today. So I appreciate that.

Dr. Tovah Klein:

Thank you. Thanks for having me on.