Yshai Boussi on Polyvagal and Supporting Connected Relationships with Teens

Debbie:

Hey, Yshai, welcome to the podcast.

Yshai Boussi:

Thanks for having me, Debbie. It’s great to be here.

Debbie:

Yeah, I was so intrigued when I heard about your book. We’re big fans of the Polyvagal Theory over here at Tilt Parenting. And then to read, you know, that you’re talking about Polyvagal parenting strategies, specifically with teens, I was like, tick so many boxes for me. So I’m excited to get into it. But I’d love it if you could start us off by telling us a little bit more kind of beyond the bio, the work that you do in the world and maybe a little bit about why you got so intrigued with doing this work.

Yshai Boussi:

Hmm, sure. Yeah, happy to. I like a lot of young people. I fell into this work by accident. When I was in my early 20s, I was actually a business major in college and had this corporate job in retail. And then I just randomly was talking to a friend and they, I was looking for some volunteer work or something to do. And they introduced me to this mentoring program, working with at -risk youth and that’s where I started and it was very immersive and I found it incredibly rewarding but also just interesting. The work that there’s a personal development component that I’ve always been drawn to and this age, 13, 14, I found it challenging but also really fun. I connected really well so I got sucked in and then I quit the corporate job. And then I worked full -time in a residential treatment facility for at -risk youth. Some of the most emotionally disturbed young people, adolescents in the state. And again, really tough work, but also really interesting, really enjoyable. And then I just found other opportunities to work with youth in different capacities in the community. And…

I was drawn to that more and more. And then I thought, decided I want to be a therapist and I wanted to do a different kind of work with young people. So then I went to graduate school and I studied marriage and family therapy and systems thinking. So it became, so that was a big shift for me because through my twenties, I was doing, it was all about working with individual kids. How do you help an individual young person? How do you work with them? How do you connect with them? And then I entered this world of learning about context and systems and families and the environment and how it’s integrated and related. So that really shifted my paradigm and broadened the work that I did. And then I got a job at a family therapy clinic, my first job as a therapist, where I was required to sit with parents almost as much as I sat with kids, with teenagers. And that was, I was not a parent yet. I now have a 15 year old daughter and a 12 year old son. But at that point I was not. And so I actually was really struggling with a lot of judgment. And up to that point, you know, I thought, what is the parents fault? What did they do? They messed up their kids. I need to help them. I need to help these poor kids. You have bad parents. And I really did. I’m not proud of that, but that was kind of how, you know, where I was coming from. And so, but then the more I sat with parents, parents from really marginalized communities and, and, really made some pretty big mistakes. But you can’t, when I was listening to them and hearing their stories and seeing how much they loved their kids and how much shame they felt, I couldn’t help but build more empathy and compassion and understanding. And I just thought, wow, you adore your kids so much and you feel horrible that you’re here having to talk to me. You feel ashamed. How do I not help you make you feel ashamed? How do I help you turn you into a collaborator? And so we can work together and support your kid.

And that changed a lot for me. So that became my new norm — family therapy. Realizing that I need to work, if I’m going to help these young people, I need to also work together with their parents in a partnership. So from there, I’ve been really focusing on family therapy and that is my passion now. I love what gets me up. I’ve been doing this for over 20 years and it’s still super exciting for me to do this work. And what I find myself increasingly drawn to nowadays is, I love young people, they kind of keep me young, you know, and their energy and enthusiasm and they’re not as guarded and you can kind of get to, you know, different parts of them. And so I really still enjoy them. But I also love helping and supporting parents. I’m a parent and I really get how hard it’s complicated, it’s confusing. And especially if we’re talking about teenagers, there’s a lot of judgment. We feel judged, especially if our kids are struggling in whatever way. And, so bridging that gap is what I spend a lot of time doing, connecting. So I do a lot of family therapy with teenagers and young adults right now. And it’s really, I enjoy it and it seems like a need that they really appreciate.

Debbie:

Yeah, it’s so interesting. I mean, it makes so much sense. And I don’t think I’ve really talked with any family therapists on the show. I think when we talk about therapy, it usually is therapy for the child and then the parent getting some kind of other support coaching or whatever that is. And it makes so much sense that working together as a team, that would be so powerful. So that’s super interesting. And you talked about systems thinking. Could you just explain what that is a little bit more, because that’s a newer term for me.

Yshai Boussi:

Yeah, so system thinking is understanding that we don’t function in isolation. We’re impacted by our environment. Certainly, obviously, our immediate nuclear family and parents, but our community and our culture and society. And we influence that, and that influences us. And so if you… A lot of therapy in the past, I think it still happens, but less was let’s pluck this person out of their system and help them, help them, help them. And sometimes there’s aspects of that that can be helpful, but it’s limiting. If we don’t address the system in some way or in some context, then it’s going to be really difficult because they go back to that system. And so it’s thinking about the interaction and interplay in communities and environments.

Debbie:

Super interesting. Okay, thank you for that. So before we get into some deeper concepts, I’d love to set the landscape for the book that you know, is how I first learned about your work. So your new book is called Staying Connected with Your Teen Polyvagal Parenting Strategies to Reduce Reactivity, Set Limits and Build Authentic Connections. And then there’s like a little circle on the bottom that says how to go from conflict to calm. So that all sounds great. Yeah, and so I’d love it if you could kind of give us the overview of what you wanted to achieve in this book, why you wanted to get it out into the world.

Yshai Boussi:

Great, yeah. So there’s three, I would say there’s three things and I guess in order. So one is the number one thing I’m seeing with young people today is they’re feeling disconnected, the challenge. You know, it’s a lot going, talk and conversation that’s really important about adolescent mental health and some of their struggles. And there are certainly things to point to that are contributing to that. Social media, the culture, you know, rates of anxiety are going up and hospitalization, all these metrics, right? But we don’t really know exactly what the, there’s not just one source. And what I’m finding, and I think what a lot of the research shows is the number one factor, the number one way to help our teens and young adults is to support connection. They’re feeling disconnected. And so it’s the number one way to inoculate them from the risks from the challenges of their environment in the world It’s helping them experience of greater connection and when it comes to teenagers and young adults like why I thought Like this book was really important is because we kind of get that with littler kids You know like spending time with the family and connecting and being there with them But as kids get older what I find is a lot of times there’s this idea of like well I need to give let them go You know, they want space they want to be on their own. So I’m gonna just leave them alone. They need to go and explore and do their thing. And while some of that is true, it can go too far and then that connection gets lost. And I talk to teenagers every day and they’re like, they actually want a relationship. They wanna be close and spend more time with their parents, surprisingly. Well, not surprising for me, but for a lot of people that’s surprising to hear, but it’s true. And so I wanna help parents in this book kind of understand that it’s not about the monitoring and, you know, micromanaging and that’s not what they need that can keep them safe in the short term, but it doesn’t keep them safe in the long term because then it can become a cat and mouse game and like, you know, get in trouble and get caught and they need connection, authentic connection. That’s going to keep them safe more than any monitoring app could ever do. But how do you do that with a teenager? It’s tricky because they don’t seem interested a lot. 

And so I address those questions in this book. How do you do that with a teenager in an authentic and sustainable way? So the connection is the one thing I wanted to give a roadmap for that with teenagers specifically. And then the polyvagal theory, which we can get into is about the foundation of connection is understanding and helping our kids is understanding their nervous system and understanding our nervous system and how that’s the key component of helping them get more calm, get more regulated, helping them learn. We spend a lot of time in our culture you know this, of course, but like talking and we and I’ve done this with all I know, I’ve done this too is like I can over talk or I’m giving all this information and like you should know better and all these kinds of cognitive relate ways of relating. And our kids are just like they’re either glazed over or they’re telling us what we want to hear. And then we get more frustrated because why didn’t you listen? I told you and you didn’t do it. So I want to help in this book. Also, parents realize that it’s not about what you’re saying as much as how you’re connecting with your nervous system to their nervous system, talking to theirs through there. So there’s that. And then I have a section that’s about, because I also was mindful of if all we do is connect, that’s not gonna be adequate because kids do need boundaries. They need expectations and accountability. So I felt like that was important to have a section in this book about expectations and accountability so people don’t get the wrong idea where I just need to connect. We’re really close. We’re like best friends, so I’m good, right? Well, no, those kids can really struggle if they don’t have any expectation, expectation kind of like, so how do you do that in a way that’s effective, that’s not punitive or shame based that helps them learn and grow? So I added a second. So those are the three things.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s great. It really kind of ticks again, all the boxes. It’s really so important. We’ve talked about connection a lot on this show. And I’m thinking about the conversation I had with John Duffy several years ago, Dr. John Duffy, who wrote Parenting the New Teen in Age of Anxiety. And that was my core takeaway from that is just how critical and protective that deep relationship can be. So I love that that’s where you’re starting. Okay, so in the book, again, you and you just reiterated this, you wrote on the whole that our teens are feeling disconnected, lonely, you believe that the source of that is not just social media or entitlement or over parenting, but this lack of meaningful connection. So could we go into that a little bit deeper, and maybe give us an example of what meaningful connection really could look like ideally between a parent or another adult and a teenager.

Yshai Boussi:

Yeah, so teenagers long for connection, but they’re also able to sniff out BS from 100 miles away. And they’re really turned off by pandering or, you know, superficial connection. It seems like they’re like we want something out of it, you know, if I’m like, hey, how’s it going? Have you had a good day? OK, great. So I need you to pick up your room and let’s talk about your homework and that. OK, so I was nice to you. So friendly now it’s like, they’re like, what do you want from me? So that’s why, and a lot of teenagers and young adults are used to being, you know, like adults wanting something from them and not really feeling genuinely valued and appreciated in an authentic way. So I have a chapter called on something, an acronym called pace. and it was developed by Daniel Hughes, a fantastic psychologist. and I call it the attitude of connection. That this is not a technique, this is not about I statements, this is not about positive affirmations or telling them or praise. It’s a way of being and it doesn’t just apply to our kids, it applies to adults, any relationship, but applying it to our teenagers and young adults. PACE is an acronym, it stands for Playfulness, Acceptance, Curiosity and Empathy. So, playfulness is often the language of teenagers and kids.

It can be humor and jokes, but it can also just be a lightness. It conveys confidence. It can be watching a funny show together, playing a card game or a board game, just sharing a smile. So playfulness is really an important piece of connection. And then acceptance is about whatever you think and whatever you feel is okay and acceptable. This is a tricky one for some folks, because it doesn’t mean I agree and it doesn’t mean it’s okay but it means that’s what you think and that’s what you feel. And so acceptance, sometimes that’s a lot harder with certain kiddos. Our foster son, he’s now 27, but he has autism and he has PTSD and he has a lot of mental health challenges. And he’s doing so much better now, but he joined our family when he was 13. And he would just go on these rants as some kids do you know, and just nonsense. It just makes no sense what he’s talking about. And I had to learn over time that there was a time when I would get stuck in trying to count. Like that doesn’t make sense. That’s not true. That’s just not, that’s not even, there’s no science behind it. You’re just making that up. And of course what would happen, he’d just get increasingly dysregulated and frustrated and I’m frustrated and we’re like, you know, and so I really learned pretty quickly. Like, what am I doing? So I would just, then acceptance means I just let him go. Okay, you’re saying all these things that completely don’t make any sense. Not true, but that’s okay. Just let him do his thing. And I like, it sounds like, and I’ll answer, like, it sounds like you feel that dot dot dot. It sounds like you’re, you know, in your mind, dot dot dot. So then it just settles him. It slows them down when they feel heard and accepted.

And then the C is curiosity, then that open space for curiosity. I can ask questions. How long have you been thinking that? What are your thoughts about that? You know, have you felt that way for a long time? Do you feel like this is really important? What’s important about that to you? Tell me more about that. I didn’t know that. That’s interesting. And when you can be and then when so when you have those three, then that actually fosters more capacity for empathy, because when we’re regulated and calm and we’re genuinely curious.

And most parents have had moments like this, it can be really hard, but it feels like such a win because they share in a way they’ve never shared before. And sometimes it’s few and far between, but when you have that moment where they open up and you’re like, my God, this is amazing. I hope this lasts forever. They’re really sharing. Well, when they do that, then we have more empathy for them. And then that fosters more curiosity. Like, my God, I didn’t realize you were so sad and really overwhelmed that you were scared about this. Now I know. Now I can ask more questions, try to understand. So now there’s a real authentic connection. So it’s not a technique, it’s just a way of being in the world, playfulness followed with acceptance, curiosity and empathy. So I talk about that as a really fundamental way to foster connection over time. It’s not a quick fix, it’s not getting them to behave, it’s just a way of being.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yes, there are no quick fixes. They just don’t exist. We talk about that a lot here, yet we all still want them, but it’s always good to get the reminder that they don’t exist. And also I appreciate that you talked about acceptance versus agreeing that is something you write about and it can be so hard. But, you know, and we’ll talk about nervous systems in a few minutes, but there is something about just not arguing back against or trying to invalidate someone’s dysregulated teens experience that already starts to calm their nervous system down, just giving them a place to be seen and heard is so powerful. And yeah, so I really appreciate that framework. And I just want to say when you get curious and you talk about like, my gosh, they’re opening up like this is incredible. I will say that’s where I start. Then my mind starts to panic like, my gosh, it’s happening. I have to capitalize on this experience and make the most of it. So any advice for how to quiet our own brains when those windows of opportunity appear?

Yshai Boussi:

Well, I definitely appreciate it, but then also understand that it’s a process. You know, you’re getting on base. You’re not trying to hit a home run and appreciate the moment. And if you think about how you got there and then work on anticipating that you’re going to have more of these. You don’t have to get it all right now in one shot and you’re not going to. And so just appreciate that moment of connection, of openness that the two of you are having and also just hold onto it, because we need these sometimes when we’re going through a really hard time and it’s so discouraging to remember that like, that your kid is really sweet and caring. And we know that intellectually, but when things are really hard, it’s easy to forget that sometimes, you know, and just be like, there’s nothing in there. There’s like, there’s no authenticity. There’s no connection. There’s no empathy.

And so I think if you’re lucky, fortunate to have those moments and when you practice all these things that we talk about and that you talk about on here, you get more of those moments and then you just got to hold onto them and remember, I spent a lot of time helping parents remember like they’re also yes, hard, hard, hard, you know, but also there are these moments and I want you to don’t forget that those moments are real also. They’re not manipulative. They’re not just trying to get their way and they might look different an hour later back to being grumpy or irritable or disconnected, or 10 minutes later, but that was still real. And you got a glimpse. And how do we expand that over time? But really hold on to that. I think that’s the biggest thing I would suggest.

Debbie:

That’s so helpful. And I, you know, I’m not a sports person, but I do love that analogy. I think I am always looking for the home run. So that’s a good reminder. Just getting on base is great. And I’ll just share for listeners, some of the ways that I’ve tried to hold on, because that’s been really important for me is I have sometimes I’ll write things down. I’m not a big journal or, but I might write down, you know, that this happened, we had this connection, this conversation in a way that will help me tap into the, the positive emotional experience from, you know, my perspective, sharing that with somebody else. Like when I tell this, when I relate that story to my sister or my therapist or someone else, that also helps to ground it in. And then I’ve also even recorded a video to my future self, just reminding me that that happened. So on a really low moment, I have like this version of me from the past telling me, that we had this moment and don’t forget that, you know.

Yshai Boussi:

That’s amazing. Thanks for sharing that. I love that. Because from just a neurological standpoint, it helps integrate those memories and that experience because we do have to expand that because they are few and far between sometimes and it is such a thankless job. And so I love those. Those are such great ways to integrate it a little more. Because I do spend a lot of time with families. Of course they’re going to come in for an intake and talk about the problems and this happened and that and it’s this and it’s not safe and I don’t know what to do and they don’t listen and all that. And that’s real. And we got to like, we’re here to work on it. So we got to talk about it. But then sometimes parents can get really hard and dark and it’s just hard to find any joy or any positive experiences with our kids. Or it’s like, I don’t see anything good and they feel bad about it. They feel kind of ashamed. Like I don’t, I don’t like them right now. And I feel embarrassed to say that, but it’s like, and so like these moments and helping expand them, like I really try to help people do that. 

Debbie:

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah, it’s powerful. And we do need it for those darker moments. So we have done episodes on polyvagal before, and you talk about Deb Dana. We had Deb Dana on the show to talk about her book, Anchored, I believe. I love her work and Dr. Mona Delahook has been on the show. So we have talked a lot about this, but yeah, totally. And it’s such a powerful, just information to have as we navigate parenting our kids. It’s like a complete reframe. It has been for me. So before we get into some of the ways that you tap into the power of polyvagal in your book, I’m not gonna ask you to explain polyvagal theory in detail, but can you give the quick overview for listeners who it might be a new concept to?

Yshai Boussi:

Yeah. Yeah. So the polyvagal Theory is just, it’s a model for understanding how our nervous system relates and interacts with the environment. And our nervous system is what affects our ability to connect with others. It affects the way we think about ourselves. It affects the way we think about others. It affects the way we think about the world. And so our nervous system is our first responder to everything, not our perception, not our thoughts. What we often are most aware of is our thoughts. But that comes second. And so. Tuning into our nervous system, the nervous system of our kids, and there’s three pathways. And so the latter metaphor that Deb Dana uses is I find incredibly helpful. So we have these three states and you can think of them on a continuum. It’s part of being human. So the bottom rungs of the ladder is a state that I call shut down. So that’s when there’s a lot of words we can use for that state. Some people use the word depression, but it can be just disconnected, low energy, sort of meh. And then as you move up the rungs of the ladder, and I think of that as like the color blue, you know, people can kind of fill in their own words, but we know it when we’re in it. And then when you move up the rungs of the ladder in the middle is a state I call activated. And so that’s when there’s mobilized energy, adrenaline, cortisol, the scientific term is sympathetic state. So that’s where anxiety lives. That’s when we’re fidgety, we can’t sit still. There’s mobilization, there’s a lot of energy, sometimes anger, aggression, things like that. And then as you keep moving up the ladder, you get to the top rungs and that’s called just the regulated state. So it’s ventral vagal is the polyvagal term for it, but I just call it regulated. That’s when we are calm, we’re able to connect, receive connection, happy, peaceful, all these good things that we like. We know it when we’re in it. We can usually tell when our kids are in these states. Some of our kids are more, lean towards more activated energy. Some kids are leaning towards more shutdown energy. All of us tend to lean towards one or the other more. And one of the principles of this is that, this is what our nervous system just sort of automatically creates these states for us. And so a healthy nervous system, a saying in this work is that a healthy nervous system is a flexible nervous system. So we’re not expected to be regulated all the time. That would be weird. That’s not normal or natural, but the goal is to be able to move up when we’re activated or when we’re shut down to move up that ladder and help ecognize when our kids, where they are on their ladder and how do we help them move up? Because they can only learn when they’re regulated. And so that’s the idea is, you know, at the end of the day, it’s like recognizing where our kids are at and how do we help them? A lot of our kids, like even if they’re behaving well and doing what they wanted, what they’re supposed to be doing, they’re still very activated or they’re shut down internally, their nervous systems are.

And that affects the way their story, the way they think about us, the way they think about themselves. You know, when a kid will say, you yelled at me and we’re like, it was moments that every parent has had, but I didn’t yell at you. Like actually I yelled at you two weeks ago, maybe that was fair. But this time you’re saying I yelled and I really did not yell. Well, their story is that you yelled because that interaction came when they were activated or they were shut down. So it changes the way it affects their story about reality. And so there’s the saying in Polly bagel theory that story follows state. So where the state comes first, and then there’s a story. So like, when I’m shut down, I’m just kind of like, maybe it’s mild depression, or just kind of like low energy, like meh, like, I feel a little more hopeless about the world. I’m kind of maybe a little more like untrusting of other people. I’m a little harder on myself, a little more down on myself. I’m more like, eh, it doesn’t really matter. Why am I doing all this? When I’m activated, I’m a more anxious energy, then I tend to be a little more irritable with people I’m close to. I tend to be more impatient, more argumentative. I can be a little more, again, harder on myself and self -critical. These are all stories I have that change as I move up the ladder to these different states. But when I’m regulated, it’s really easy for me to see the good in other people like everyone is trying their best. Everyone has a story. I’m so much more naturally empathetic and caring. I love to learn. I’m naturally curious. All that pay stuff. I’m funny. All that pay stuff just naturally happens. That pay sacrum I talked about. I can do it pretty easily. This just happens. So the state we’re in affects the story we have. And so for our kids, they have all these stories about us. You’re so mean to me or it’s not fair. I hate everything. That teacher was so mean to me. But the state they’re in really affects how they experienced it. So that’s kind of summarizing a lot of principles of polyvagal theory. And I didn’t talk about co -regulation, which is kind of the key to connection. As you know, the million dollar question is how do I help my kid move up the ladder to get more regulated. And there’s a number of different ways to support that, but co -regulation would be the number one thing, which is a regulated other human is necessary to help build self -regulation. So us being regulated is the most important thing we can do.

Debbie:

Yeah, so that’s another thing we’ve definitely talked a lot about on the show and thinking of an interview I had with Stuart Shenker on regulation. And, it actually just shows up in so many conversations because it is such a critical part of this equation. But I really appreciate that overview you gave of polyvagal. And I hadn’t, I was going to ask you a question about the role of stories when it comes to how regulated a person’s nervous system is. And I hadn’t heard that before that story follows state. So just to integrate my brain. The state that our kids’ nervous system is in when things happen when they engage with us is going to directly impact how they, you know, kind of how those stories become part of their internal dialogue or you know how they make sense of what’s happening. It’s really foundational. So would the key then be to just try to extend to the amount of time that our kids spend in a calm regulated state?

Yshai Boussi:

I mean, that’s always the goal because that’s when they are regulated, the stories are really different how they think about themselves. But we all create stories like we’re story making, you know, creatures. And so they will create a story and, and it will be highly influenced by their state. So if you have a kiddo that’s just really negative, maybe you’re pessimistic, or they’re, you know, you went on vacation, and there was like one thing that didn’t go well, but there was like, there were like 50 that went really well and they’re just like, yeah, it was okay. I don’t know if I, you know, and that thing happened and I didn’t, it was, it wasn’t that fun. Well, that tells you more about the state they were in probably while they were on vacation. So getting caught up in the story. But what do you mean? There were so many things that were fun. Remember this, that just usually doesn’t land, right? Because it’s so the, the, the experience they have is really more a cue for us to recognize, I think they’re just really overwhelmed right now. You know, and so we don’t, we, cause we take what they say a little too seriously sometimes, right? Like, so you’re a terrible parent, you know, or like these things that are hard to hear, but like that’s more of a, they don’t really think we’re terrible parents. Like your kids love you, but when they’re dysregulated, you know, and they’re activated, like that’s the story they have in that moment.

And so we’re like, what do you, I do so much for you. And then we get caught up in the story instead of like, wow, for you to say that you must be really dysregulated right now. We don’t, we might not say that to them directly, but to think, tell ourselves like, well, my kid’s really having a hard time. How do I help them? That’s going to be a lot more of an effective approach than like you are ungrateful. You don’t appreciate, you know, how lucky you are. Do you know how much I do for you? I haven’t slept, you know, and all that stuff that we can kind of do as parents.

Debbie:

Right. Yeah, we can save that for our therapist or other people to say those things. And I will say you’re reminding me of something that I heard is just don’t believe everything that I heard kids tell us and I often do like I would take it all like my gosh they said this is this and that means X and it’s like yeah so just that reminder that that is that more an expression of how that was experienced by them it doesn’t mean it’s true it doesn’t mean and it’s not my job to kind of provide evidence to counter whatever that statement was.

Yshai Boussi:

And it doesn’t mean they believe it either. Like we have to give them grace sometimes. You know, like that executive functioning stuff, like they’re just emotionally impulsive, not just behaviorally impulsive a lot of the time. And so they just blurt stuff out in the heat of the moment. And oftentimes it is a product of safety, right? Like they feel emotionally safe with us and that doesn’t make us feel … that still sucks. We don’t want to be a punching bag, but in some ways it’s like, you wouldn’t want it the other way around where they can’t, right, express that. So it’s kind of both, but it’s not personal. Like if your kid is saying that it’s likely that you’re actually the only, you might be the only safe person that they can really just do that with. Again, we do have to help them and not just be okay with it, but we also got it. If we just try to regulate their behavior and their language, we’re going to be really missing helping them in the way they really need.

Debbie:

Right, right. Gosh, I have so many more questions and I just want to be mindful of the time. I’m going to try to touch upon the bigger things I wanted to make sure we talked about. One is I just wanted to know if you could talk about the impact of a parent’s worry on their relationship with their kids because parents of teenagers, the ones I hear from are so concerned about their kids, whether it’s like their in school refusal or their mental health challenges or whatever else or the friends, the peer group that they have. So can you talk about the parents’ experience and how that can impact what’s happening with their child and that relationship?

Yshai Boussi:

Worry is going to happen. But what I do take exception to sometimes, well, if you know, parents will sometimes say things like, it’s my job to worry. I don’t think it’s our job to worry. It’s our job to be regulated and provide love and care and accountability and expectations. Worry comes as a secondary side effect that just happens when you love someone who you just don’t know the outcome of. You don’t know what, how they’re going to turn out. That is the reality of parenting, especially today’s world. We don’t know. We cannot know no matter, we can do all the right things, read all the books, listen to all the podcasts. And we just don’t know how our kids are going to end up. if they’re going to struggle or not or thrive or stuff. So there’s only so much we can do. And that is going to trigger a certain amount of anxiety and worry, but it’s our responsibility to manage it. and not displace that onto our kids because it can backfire because what can happen is, we worry and then we can unintentionally create some of the things we’re actually worried about. We can increase the odds of those happening because when kids pick up that their parents are worried, this is what I work with families a lot on this issue. One of the number one reasons I’ll ask you is about why you don’t, why, how come you don’t talk to your parents or why do you, why do you feel like you can’t, you can share that with me, but not with your mom or your dad. 

Because they’ll sometimes say, well, we are pretty close. I’m like, well, OK, well, how would you feel about sharing that with them? Why do you think you don’t? One of the number one reasons, it’s not autonomy or I’m a teenager and I don’t want to talk to my parents. I don’t want to worry them. Teenagers are really attuned to their parents’ well-being and how they’re doing. They pick up on it. A lot of these, especially the kids we talk about here, they’re incredibly sensitive to their environment and what their parents’ moods are and what’s on their plate. And so if they sense that their mom or their dad is overwhelmed with work or with another sibling or just stressed with life, they’re gonna just notice it and they’re just not gonna share out of love. I mean, it’s a very appropriate response given their story about their parents and what they’re observing. So they don’t want to stress them out more. So that’s one thing that why an important reason why as parents we have to manage our worries and we have to, and maybe we do have a lot on our plate and cause a lot of parents really do. But to the, if you’re one of those parents, I would say you have to go out of your way to sit down with your kid and let them know, acknowledge. Yep. You’re not crazy. I am. I have been stressed, but I have room on my plate for you. I can handle your emotions. I can handle your big feelings. And I want you to know that I’m here and I will make room. I know my plate’s full, yep, but I can handle it. So that’s one thing, one way to handle worry. 

And then the other part is we do have to just do our own work. So another kind of little tool to think about worries is to think of it as having two, coming in two categories, two buckets. So worries are either signals or worries are noise. We worry for a reason. A worry is designed to be a signal to take action, right? So if I have like, you know, a lump on my neck and it’s been there for a week, I should worry. That’s an appropriate worry. And the signal for that is to go to the doctor to get it checked out. But a lot of our worries, especially nowadays, are noise, meaning there’s nothing to be done. So if I went and got that checked out and they did the ultrasounds and they did all the things and they said, nope, it’s fine, it’s nothing, you’re going to be okay. You know, we’ve got, and I got a second opinion, and I’m still not sleeping, then that worry is noise because there’s nothing for me to do anymore. A lot of our worries with our kids are about their future and how they’re going to turn out. There’s nothing to do at this moment. And so it’s a skill to learn to let it go, to drop it and shift to something else. I know that sounds oversimplified, but it gets easier with practice because there are things that we do. Maybe I do need to get an evaluation. Maybe I do need to reach out to some therapists. Maybe I do need to talk to the teacher. Maybe have a conversation or create some different structure. Those are signals that we need to act on, but a lot of the worries are noise. And it’s really important that we kind of let go of it because it keeps us from just enjoying our kids too when we worry too much, we’re missing just this fun, enjoyable time that will go by.

Debbie:

Yeah, it absolutely keeps us, first of all, keeps us up at night often and really interferes with our sleep. But, you know, I think so many of us are waiting for this time in the future when things are easier, when this happens, like we’re always kind of projecting into once this happens, then this will get easier there. I can’t wait until my child does X, Y or Z. But doing that also prevents us from just being in what we’re actually doing right now like today, which is parenting our kid and we can’t effectively show up for them if we’re always trying to control or future cast, you know, what’s gonna happen down the road.

Yshai Boussi:

Yeah, that’s a great point, like a great add on because that’s the number one and anecdote to worry is to be present. If we’re fully in the moment, we can’t worry because we’re here. Worry is always a future oriented problem. Yeah, it’s a good point.

Debbie:

Right. Right. Right. Again, and not easy or not easy to do. So it’s not like we’re saying, great, just stop worrying and turn off the noise. No problem. Yeah, it is Jedi level for sure. Before we wrap up, could you share some ways that, you know, listeners here, which it’s mostly parents who listen to the show, but we also have teachers and we have therapists, how we can create space in context that makes it more likely for our kids, our teenagers specifically, to be open and more connected with us more of the time. So any kind of top tips or things to consider, to really kind of, I guess, create the landscape for that deep connection.

Yshai Boussi:

Yeah. So, so of course it starts with us, but then when we think about the space, when possible, like collaborating with, with kids, if that’s, you know, if it’s like a classroom or, I think you did have a guest who talked about polyvagal theory and they talked about just having some options in a room in a space where they can choose, like, do you like this or do you not, you know, would you like more of this or less of this? When there is some flexibility, you know, it’s hard if you have multiple people, like in a classroom, you can’t necessarily do that as easily. But adjusting and adapting to who you have with you in your space. I have a basket of fidgets in my office. I have paper and pens that some kids want to doodle. And I’ve had parents say, you should be paying attention. Put those away. And I’m like, well, no, no, actually, those are there. That’s exactly what they’re there for. It can help a lot of kids focus and pay attention. They’re like, really? OK.

So, it really does take paying attention. Like some kids need help with like sitting in a different spot, because they’re not going to ask or offer it, but you can like invite it for them, you know, to move or sit in a different way or sit on the floor, you know, or if, and we can get really locked into this is just how we do it, but kids want to be respectful and they want to do the right thing. And so, being able to be flexible and adaptive within the constraints that you have and think about the environment, like the pictures and the posters and the clutter and even that kind of stuff really does matter for a lot of these kids. Things that may not bother us, but we have to really think about, like, what does that look like and check in with them. I think that’s always the best thing to learn from these kids. Ask them questions. What did they think? And then accept what their answer is and not take it personally. They say, yeah, I don’t really like your poster. I think it’s ugly. Sometimes I love some of these kids that are so honest. That’s one of the things I love about them. Thanks for saying that. And I may be able to do something about that and I may not, but just even accepting it and encouraging, enabling their voice is really empowering for them to feel heard and that you’re not mad at them.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s great. And I’m thinking of you mentioned before the importance of doing your own work. And that is another concept we talk a lot about here is doing your own inner work so that we can best show up for these kids. I’m thinking of Dr. Lori Desautels work, who I’ve had on the show twice, her most recent book is Intentional Neuroplasticity, but she’s really in the classroom working on helping teachers show up and understand the impact of their nervous system on the collective nervous systems of the classroom and also understanding the trauma and things that many students are coming in with and honoring where their nervous systems are on any given day. So I think her work is so powerful in this conversation too, but I think again, zooming out to bring it back to that reminder that we as co -regulators, as people who have, can have a lot of influence in how our kids and teenagers are experiencing their lives is something we wanna really keep in mind.

Yshai Boussi:

Absolutely. I mean, I think in some ways that’s like, you know, the number one way we can be an activist in our community and make our world a better place is bringing more co -regulation to the grocery store, to the school meeting, to our other parents, to our kids’ friends. I think that’s just such a really, really important gift that we can bring. It’s worth the work on ourselves to be able to expand our ability to bring co -regulated energy to the world.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yes. Yes. And on the subway, which needs a lot more coregulation at the moment. So I’ll work on that here. So okay, there’s so many other things that we haven’t gotten into. But I really encourage listeners if you have a teen or adolescents or a soon to be teen in your world, this is a really great kind of a handbook to really understand how to best show up for 

for these kids and that you do we didn’t get into it today but you mentioned it earlier you do have a chapter that is called when they blow it and you’re talking about accountability and how and boundaries and so I really appreciated the examples you gave in that chapter and throughout the book where you kind of talk about here’s one way this dialogue could go and here’s a much more calm, supportive way to have this conversation. So it’s very practical in that way as well. So the book again is called Staying Connected with Your Teen Polyvagal Parenting Strategies to Reduce Reactivity, Set Limits and Build Authentic Connection. So if you could just take a minute and tell us where listeners can connect with your work and yeah, find you out if you’re on social media, whatever you wanna share.

Yshai Boussi:

Sure, yeah, so of course the book, Staying Connected with Your Teen, the blue cover. There’s another other book that have similar -ish titles. And on Instagram, I’m at yourteentherapist. And my website is my name, yshaiboussi.com, Y -S -H -A -I -B -O -U -S -S -I. And I have parenting classes and I just do different things like that. Just new email lists, you know, all that stuff to stay in touch. Parenting particularly with parents and people who love teenagers and young adults specifically. That’s what I focus on.

Debbie:

Yeah. That’s awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you for everything that you shared today. Thanks for the work that you do in the world to support kids who are struggling. It’s so important. And it’s obvious that you love this work. And that’s what we need is more people who really kind of show up wholeheartedly to engage with teens and adolescents. So thank you so much. And thanks for this conversation.

Yshai Boussi:

Thanks, Debbie. Yeah. And same to you. Your work is amazing, so important having these conversations. This was great. I really appreciate you.