Dr. Lori Desautels on Shifting Educational Systems Towards Post Traumatic Growth

Debbie Reber  00:00

Tilt Parenting is proud to partner with Fusion Academy this season. Fusion Academy is the world’s most personalized school with one to one classrooms that match your student’s pace and preferences so they can learn better, dive deeper, and never get left behind. Learn more about the most personalized school in the world and how it’s changed the lives of 10s of 1000s of differently wired students, including mine at fusionacademy.com/tilt

Lori Desautels  00:26

When we create a nest, a culture that is rich in nutrients that can feed our children in our adolescence in our classrooms, then we’re tending to the nest and not trying to fix kids. This is something that is just so important to me, as we think about equity when we think about the neurodivergent populations in our schools. When we think about how we can be the relational field. That’s amazing. I can be that relational field for my students. And so am I needing them in their nervous system? That’s discipline on the front end, it’s the minute they walk in, what does that nest feel like to them?

Debbie Reber  01:11

Welcome to Tilt Parenting, a podcast featuring interviews and conversations aimed at inspiring informing and supporting parents raising differently wired kids. I’m your host, Debbie Reber. I’m so excited to share this episode with you because Dr. Lori Desautels is back on the show to talk about her new book, Intentional Neuroplasticity: Our Educational Journey Towards Post-Traumatic Growth, which stems from her passion of applying the social and relational neurosciences to education, and integrating her applied research into classroom procedures and transitions prepping the nervous system for learning and felt safety. An assistant professor at Butler University K through 12, educator and researcher, Lori joined me on the podcast last year to talk about her book Connections Over Compliance: Rewiring Our Perceptions of Discipline. And I gotta say that conversation has really stayed with me and I loved having this opportunity to go deep with her about intentional neuroplasticity. So in this episode, we discussed some of the research about neuroplasticity, not only in kid but in adults, and how we can use it and what we know about the nervous system to help us co regulate at home and at school and truly meet our children where they are. Everything we discussed in this episode connects beautifully with the discussion we had last time Lori was on the show. So again, if you haven’t listened to that episode, I highly recommend you go back. Today is a lovely conversation. I can’t wait for you to hear it. Before I get to that, if what I’m doing here at tilt parenting and the guests I bring on the show are providing support and encouragement and hope for your family. And you’re ready to dive deeper with me and uplevel your parenting progress. Please join us in the differently wired club. The Club’s my most favorite thing I do here at tilt and it’s really just an incredible community of parents raising complex kids like ours. We get together regularly for virtual office hour calls, coaching calls, and live calls with expert guests and authors. And we also dive deep into a different theme every month like noticing and observing scaffolding, advocacy co regulation. So if you are feeling alone or overwhelmed in your parenting life, please join us. We are in this together. Go to tilt parenting.com/club to learn more. Thanks so much. And now here is my conversation with Dr. Lori Desautels. Hey Lori, welcome back to the podcast.

Lori Desautels  03:43

Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be back.

Debbie Reber  03:46

I’m excited about your new book. So you were on the show about a year and a half ago, we talked about your book Connections over Compliance, which I was saying before we hit record, I think about a lot. Still I think about the power of the work that you’re doing the paradigm shifting mission that you were on. And so when I learned about your new book, I was like, Okay, we need to have another conversation. I don’t want to spend a lot of time reintroducing you listeners, go back and listen to that last podcast if you want to get caught up on that conversation. But your new book is called Intentional Neuroplasticity: Our Educational Journey Towards Post-Traumatic Growth. So I would love if you could just start by telling us about the pull, the calling to get this book out into the world and what your big vision for it was.

Lori Desautels  04:36

Well, following Connections Over Compliance, I felt that we were moving towards a greater understanding of adverse childhood experiences. And I’m generalizing. But I do feel that many educators, health practitioners, parents, schools, organizations, are really delving into how trauma and adversity impact our systems, our emotional perceptual digestive cardiovascular, which I talk about in connections over compliance. And then I began looking at the research from several researchers. But I’m working specifically with Dr. Stephen Porges, at the Polyvagal Institute, and really looking at how not only does our brain have neuroplasticity, but our entire nervous system has neuroplasticity. So that really drove the foundation. And I began to also look at how we are just wobbling not breaking as human beings, we wobble. And then when I looked at co regulation, I really re-examined and explored co regulation. And the more I thought about it, I thought, you know, this is really a concept where I’m asking myself, is my nervous system strong enough to hold the two of us? And that’s a new question. And that’s something that I’ve been thinking about as a teacher, as a professor. And I was looking, again, at some of Deb Dana’s work, Deb works closely with Dr. Porges. And so that’s really what drove this book, because there had been so much and never enough, but there had been a lot of discussion about how COVID has impacted the existing adversities, and trauma that families, communities and children were experiencing. But we also now know that with our nervous systems being social, and experience dependent, that we can mitigate our triggers. And we can actually bring in the practices that begin to address the nervous system, not just the behaviors. So intentional neuroplasticity is a more somatic approach to education. And although I talk about it and connections, I really look at how the somatic experiencing that we can bring to children, adolescents and to ourselves, can create a collective nervous system state. Because we know that, for example, in our families, if one of us is struggling, we all feel it. Because emotions and human beings are so contagious. So that is really in a nutshell, what really drove this book.

Debbie Reber  07:38

It’s so exciting. And listeners, if you haven’t heard the conversation I had with Deb Dana, on the show, I’m gonna have a link in the show notes. It’s definitely a powerful listen. And that idea of the collective nervous system, we talked about it just sitting on a subway here in New York City, how everyone is regulating or dis regulating each other. And it just really has changed how I move through the world, that understanding. You mentioned COVID. And I’m just wondering if I think I can say post COVID? Are you noticing that schools are more receptive and open to exploring this kind of work? Because I think there has been such a focus on the mental health of not just our students, which we know is in terrible shape, but educators and school staff as well.

Lori Desautels  08:30

Absolutely. And this book takes even a deeper dive into the adult nervous system, which I’m really excited about. And I’m taking that work out into the world when I share either the content of the book or I’m teaching the framework that we talk about in intentional neuroplasticity, the four pillars. And we know now and we’ve known for a while that through the pandemic, we have seen just this layered impact of how trauma is impacting family systems and our schools. And actually this school year 2022 to 2023, that is now at the tail end. There was just really this misalignment coming in in August and I felt it because you know, I’m back in the classroom a couple of days a week. And we as the adults felt like okay, that pandemic had lessened. And we were moving into post-pandemic. But what we began to see very quickly in August was that our children, our students, our adolescents, were carrying in the residual impacts and effects of trauma, the gap between their emotional development and their cognitive development was significant. So we were still seeing the loss of the social, just the being social with each other. We saw kids being very physically and verbally aggressive. We also saw the shear the frustration of educators because it was exhausting to deal with behaviors that we were misunderstanding. And we have these expectations, that okay, we’re going to go back to the way it was. And I don’t think we can ever do that. So I think this book came and is here at the perfect time. Because I feel like it’s hopeful. And I feel like it really talks about hope as a verb. And so I’m thrilled to be able to go back and reread it myself and to share it because all behavior is just an indicator or a signal that the nervous system is really struggling. And so when we really take a look at not only what’s underneath the behavior, but getting out in front of the behavior, and that is what we also are talking about in the new book, we think of discipline in reactionary, consequential terms. But I’ve introduced in this book about how behavior management is built into our procedures is built into our transitions as parents, as educators, it’s really priming and helping our children and adolescents to access their cortex, before they pop off as my seventh graders say, or before they SFAs that’s another exciting piece to this book.

Debbie Reber  11:32

Yeah, and I’d love the hope that’s in it. There’s a quote I had pulled out, I’m hopeful because in a crisis, we tap into the kind of courage that can create opportunities. And this is where the intentional awareness of neuroplasticity becomes so relevant during stressful times. So yeah, I agree, the timing is perfect for what you’re bringing out into the world. In the introduction of the book, you wrote that this book is a disrupter to what is with the focus on now, what could you say what you meant by that?

Lori Desautels  12:03

From the research that I’ve done and looking at where we are in our schools, traditionally, we as adults, really just observe what’s happening around us. And we take that as reality. And it’s really challenging for us to get out in front of that. And so that is what I meant by that quote, is that, okay, we know where we are. But because of plasticity, because of the nervous system’s plasticity, we don’t have to stay here, it’s kind of like chewing an old piece of gum when the flavor is out of it. It’s like, okay, so I enjoyed this when it was flavorful. But I can spit it out. And I can get a new piece. We are observers of what is, that is something that I discussed in the book. And it’s really hard for us to, to really get out in front of that. And what’s interesting is that the research shares that our brains cannot tell the difference, they really react and respond to the reality of an experience. And also, they respond in the same ways to our visions. I shared this with students, if you’re holding a lemon, and it’s a big juicy lemon, and it’s cut in half, and you’re holding it an actual lemon. If you imagine holding that lemon, and you squeeze that imaginary pulp and juice into your mouth, your physiological response is the same as if you were actually squeezing a lemon into your mouth. And so there’s a lot of research on mind training with athletes when they envision when they are in their mind shooting free throws, you know, in their minds, preparing for a test, so that research is not so new. But what’s new is the application and the translation of it for us today, we can have that same physiological response of excitement or anticipation. We can change brain architecture by thought alone, which is just amazing or by feeling or sensation, we can literally change our nervous system states.

Debbie Reber  14:24

So exciting. We’ll be right back after a quick break. 

Debbie Reber  14:29

Every student is so different, but traditional schools treat them all the same. That’s why my teen attends Fusion Academy, the world’s most personalized school. Fusion is especially great for differently wired students. Their one to one classrooms match your student’s unique pace and preferences so they can learn better, dive deeper and never get left behind. Fusion has 80 convenient campus locations across the country for grades six through 12, along with a fully online campus, Fusion Global Academy. Fusion has been a game changer for my family. Why not experience the world’s most personalized school for yourself? Fusion is now enrolling for both summer catch up courses and full Fall Enrollment. Sign up for a free one to one trial session at fusionacademy.com/tilt That’s fusionacademy.com/tilt 

Debbie Reber  15:18

Would you share with us the big picture work that you are suggesting classrooms and schools undertake that bird’s eye view of what you’re really talking about by bringing this into the classroom?

Lori Desautels  15:31

So in the book, I believe it’s chapter four. Well, first of all, this book has beautiful illustrations that were created by my daughter in her fiance, they both live in Mexico, he’s from Mexico, I’m really excited because the in the book, they’re black and white, but the the entire book is QR coded, so that these illustrations can be viewed and appreciated in full color, and in their digital format. So in chapter four, but the beginning of the chapter is a bird’s nest. And one of the things that we talk about in this book is creating a nest of felt safety for our students. And this is true, you know, I would have thought about this as a young mom, what is the nest that I’m creating for my family, and for myself, because when I studied birds nests, as I wrote this book, and you know, they hold the adults, not just the babies, and they are built from many diverse materials, they can be damaged, so they need to be repaired often. And so this is something I’ve shared with educators across the world is that when we create a nest, a culture that is rich in nutrients that can feed our children in our adolescence in our classrooms, then we’re tending to the Nast and not trying to fix kids. This is something that is just so important to me, as we think about equity, when we think about the neuro divergence see populations in our schools. When we think about how we can be the relational field, that’s amazing. I can be that relational field for my students. And so am I needing them in their nervous system? That’s discipline on the front end, it’s the minute they walk in, what does that nest feel like to them? And by tapping into their strengths, and their purpose and their identities, and by tapping in and tuning in, to either my agenda or their agenda? This is a book of a lot of questions, because I think questions are just so critical, to really bringing in a different type of energy to our responses. And it really is about I’m gonna say this, again, it goes back to the adult nervous system. I am the driver. I am that relational field. And I have this beautiful ability to share my nervous system with a student who needs it, or I can unintentionally escalate them, which I talked about in connections as well.

Debbie Reber  18:06

Yeah, I loved that concept of building a nest. And I think it was in you’re talking about radical education when you’re discussing that. And this does feel radical, in many ways. And so I’m just wondering, what the responses now you do include wonderful stories at the end of each chapter from educators showing how this has impacted their experience. But generally speaking, what is the openness open to experience, if you will, for teachers in schools, when you’re suggesting this building a nest and kind of really this culture shift in a classroom.

Lori Desautels  18:42

So in our seventh grade classes, we built a nest with the kids, the kids built their own nest. And they used I mean, we just threw materials onto the floor cotton balls, pipe cleaners, construction paper glue. And by the way, we were not on our cell phones or our Chromebooks for 42 minutes. We talked about what do you want in your nest? What are your resources, your anchors? Who are the people you trust? What are the places that feel safe to you? What colors are in those places? What things are in those places? What are the experiences that really juice you? What are the conditions that feel good to your nervous system? Are there foods that you love, just really anything and then they used a tracker. So they built these nests out of all these different materials. And then the cotton balls represented the people that in their nest, the popsicle sticks represented, you know, the experiences, they loved playing basketball, performing, being with friends, so we didn’t literally but I wanted it and I share this in this book, everything that I’m asking educators to do for students, I want them to experience Because again, we have to be in this together. And the students love that you’re joining up with them. And you’re not just telling them what to do or giving an assignment. But you’re, you’re sitting beside them, and doing these types of activities. So that’s spellwork, what we call or do now, or bell ringer, or it’s the first 20 minutes of class, they trapped in their nervous system states, I talked about that in the book, you know, really not pathologizing, anxiety and depression. And we had a lot of seventh grade students this year that came to us and said, You know, I’m feeling very anxious, I’ve been diagnosed with depression. And so I want to validate, and we did validate what they shared. But after validating, I also want to open up and reframe, and help them to see it through a different lens. And that lens is that depression is when our nervous system is trying very, very hard to work for us. And it’s trying to find a balance. And so those sensations that we experience, when we’re sad and overwhelmed, those are normal sensations, because that’s our body talking to us. And oftentimes, we don’t listen to our bodies. What’s interesting is, the language of the nervous system, which I talk about in this book, is sensation. And the age group that gets this are our younger students, because they have not been conditioned out of listening to the language of the nervous system. They know what tight means fuzzy, numb, teary, and gee, prickly like a pine cone heavy. Our kids when they are introduced to the language, they pick up on it so easily.

Debbie Reber  21:55

It makes so much sense. And I’m wondering about the teachers themselves. So your book, as you said, or you’re saying, really, that this isn’t just about the kids, we as the adults in the room have to be doing this work as well, in order to be that person who can help to co regulate and be part of a positive part of that collective nervous system. Because it is so different from traditional classroom management, and probably what most of the teachers I imagine you’re working with have learned in their studies to become teachers. So I’m just kind of wondering what kind of feedback you get when you are suggesting something that is probably counter to a lot of the things they’ve learned?

Lori Desautels  22:36

It’s such a great question. And there are a variety of responses. And I really want to be authentic, there’s a lot of resistance, initially. But then there is also kind of Aw, there’s like I see kind of mouths open and eyes open because it makes sense. But it’s never been considered. And that’s different. It’s like because I look at it, like a continuum of acceptance. And so there is one one end of the stick, there’s just this, like overwhelming excitement, and ready to go. And on the other end of the stick. We feel very resistant to this work, because this was not how we were prepared or trained in our pre service. And what’s interesting is that when I give personal examples, because I am an educator, you know, I’ve been in education for over 30 years. And when I share my resistance when I first was introduced to this, or when I share my journey that opens the door, sometimes a bit more easily for educators that are feeling overwhelmed by all of this. So I want to give our teachers so much grace and understanding because with staff shortages this year, with a lot of resignations happening with what is being asked of educators as we move through the pandemic. I have no words for how challenging it has been for teachers over the past several years. But one of the things is that we talked about this with the school district yesterday in northern Indiana, and when you embrace this framework, when it becomes a part of your as Parker Palmer says our personhood, it really provides an ease and a relief to the work that you’re doing every day. Once we understand that it’s not fixing anyone. It’s not about a strategy. It’s not about a solution. But it’s really about a reframing and a perceptual shift. The vast field feels doable. And I always talk about this in the book I talk about. The goal is not regulation. The goal is awareness of your nervous system. Because awareness, like for me, as a mom, now a new grandma, as a teacher, as a school counselor, in every role in my life, having awareness is transformational. That is enough, we don’t have to go. If I can hold on to that awareness, take some deep breaths, and continue to be open to the changes in the shifts, and listen to my body. I’m moving from those nervous systems states of always being protective and defensive, to nervous systems that are really moving towards growth. 

Debbie Reber  25:34

Yeah, in terms of that reframe, there’s a quote that I had pulled out from your book, behavioral management is about adults, not about children and youth. And, again, radical shift. And I love this idea of awareness is enough that that feels peaceful, it feels hopeful and doable, I think, for all of us, you know, not just the educators listening to this, but for parents as well, this is what we are striving for is to how can we be aware of what’s happening in any given moment, and knowing that that can support the dynamic of what’s hard with our kids or our students?

Lori Desautels  26:12

Yeah, and I want to give just two really kind of simple analogies of awareness. So you know, I sit in my office chair with my legs crossed, like all the time, and I become aware when my foot falls asleep. And when I have that awareness, I can do something about it. And so awareness is not stagnant. Awareness is a dynamic concept. And so that just seems silly. But when you think about it, when you have that awareness, and I can feel the tingling in my foot, my foot is numb, I immediately do something. So I have the awareness. But then I provide my body with a resource to relieve that. Another example, and I just shared this yesterday, my mom is struggling right now with her health. And there is significant cognitive decline. And so I am finding myself impatient with her. And I have that awareness. Now, it doesn’t always mean that I’m patient, because I’m not but I am aware that I need to tune in to where she is. We talk about meeting our students where they are, it’s true for all of us, I need to meet my mom, in her nervous system state. But here’s what I want to share, is that our triggers as adults, the things that activate us, you know, the things that worry us, the things that challenge us, we embody those. And so I gave this example, my mom was activating me, she was triggering me. And then the next morning, when that was completely over, I’d forgotten about it. There was a student that kept asking me for redirection, redirection, redirection, and I became very impatient. And I became very short with my response. And I stepped back with awareness, and thought, glory, where did that come from? What I’m saying is that our generational experiences are embodied experiences. What we experience every moment of the day is carried in our nervous system. And so I was able to step back and say, it’s not that the student is asking me ridiculous questions. It’s just that I have carried in that adversity, and it’s impacting the way I’m responding to this child, it cannot help but not. So these are the things that I think when we talk about educator well being, it’s not about wearing jeans and having a pass and having breakfast for teachers. It’s about giving ourselves the grace to understand how the nervous system is constantly making associations, predicting, making analogies, and that it is human to embody these experiences, and to take them into what’s the word I want to use here. It’s not misplaced, but to displace those emotions, sensations or experiences where it’s kind of the residue of what Jeff

Debbie Reber  29:32

Yeah, so interesting. And listeners, I’m going to wind down this conversation, but I do really encourage you, whether you’re an educator or not, there’s so much wonderful information in this book. And so many great resources and strategies. I read a lot of books for this and I sometimes skim through certain chat, but this I just wanted to soak it in because so much of it applies to me as a parent of things that I could be doing. are very useful strategies, mindfulness and just all those check ins as a way to kind of wrap up, could you share with us maybe what’s possible when an educator is doing this work, maybe through an example, how it will actually change the experience of a classroom that is going to be filled with students who have aces and have a lot going on and the teacher as well like what is possible for that classroom? 

Lori Desautels  30:25

Well, another great question. And I feel what is possible is not just tolerance, but the acceptance of our vast differences of our embodied experiences. And they think it is really providing the pattern repetition practices that can create empathy, that can create emotional regulation, and also nervous system awareness. And I want my five year olds and my 10 year olds, and my 15, and 18 year olds, to not only tap into their strengths and their interests and their passions, but to know that, you know, we all carry in such diverse, generational experiences, and they come from somewhere, I’ll just give one other quick example, when someone rolls their eyes at us, that can be a cue a danger. And that didn’t come out of nowhere. That is evolutionary biology. Because human beings, literally, our number one role and responsibility is survival. And so in survival, through the 1000s of years, we actually pay attention to how we are accepted or ostracized or rejected, or how we socialize. Because it is always, always about our survival.

Debbie Reber  32:04

Yeah. And I think of the kids who struggle with rejection sensitive dysphoria, and that makes that eye roll have a whole different meaning.

Lori Desautels  32:11

Whole different meaning that I will I mean, it’s never just the eye roll. You know, it’s the associations and what that is saying.

Debbie Reber  32:20

Yeah. And it’s exciting to think about kids learning these concepts at young ages, like the adults, they’re going to become able to better show up in. That’s right. Yeah, it’s very exciting. It’s very exciting. So before we say goodbye, where can listeners learn more about your work?

 

Lori Desautels  32:38

My website is revelationsineducation.com. And it is filled with resources that could be overwhelming to the nervous system. But those resources are available not only to enjoy on the website, but many of them, if not most of them can be printed out and can be applied in homes, in our organizations and in schools. 

Debbie Reber  33:03

Great. And listeners, I’ll have links to Lori’s website and the resources we talked about today, her books and more on the show notes page. So Dr. Desautels, I just want to say thank you again, I just am so in awe of the work that you’re doing. Just know that we Tilt are fully behind you. If there’s things we can do to support on the ground, let us know. But thank you so much. And I know you have a lot on your plate. So I’m going to say goodbye.

Lori Desautels  33:25

I mean, well thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation.

Debbie Reber  33:32

You’ve been listening to the Tilt Parenting podcast. To go deeper into this episode, visit the extensive show notes page. For every episode, there’s a dedicated page on my website with links to all the resources mentioned, a full transcript and a podcast player with key takeaways marked so you can easily go back and re-listen to the sections you’re most interested in. Just go to tiltparenting.com/podcast and select this episode. The tiller parenting podcast is hosted by me, Debbie Reber, author of the book Differently Wired and the founder of Tilt Parenting. This episode was edited by Andrea Curtis-Amezquita and show notes were put together by myself, Andrea and Lindsay McFadden. If you get a lot out of this podcast and want to help cover the costs of its production, please consider joining my Patreon campaign. On Patreon, you can sign up to make a small monthly contribution as little as $2 a month and it’s super easy to sign up. Just go to patreon.com/tiltparenting To learn more, or click on the Patreon link on any show notes page. To follow Tilt Parenting on social media, go to @tiltparenting on Instagram and Twitter and on Facebook. Lastly, please help this podcast stay visible and easily found by the listeners who need it by subscribing and leaving a rating or review on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you so much. And that’s all for this week. Stay safe, stay well and take good care. And for more information about this podcast or any of the resources that tilt offers, visit tiltparenting.com