Kim & Penn Holderness Talk About How ADHD is Awesome in Love and in Life

Debbie:

Okay. Well, hey, Kim and Penn, welcome to the podcast.

Kim Holderness:  

Thanks so much for having us.

Debbie:  

Yeah, I’m really excited about this conversation. You guys, I wanted to have you on the show for a while. And then I got word of your new book, ADHD is Awesome coming out. And I thought it was the perfect opportunity to bring you on to talk about your dynamic, how you navigate a relationship with ADHD, we have a lot of listeners, adults who are ADHD, who will get a lot out of this and then talk about your new book. So as a way to get started, I would love it if you could tell us about your collaboration for this book, how this book came together and how you knew it was the next book that you had to write together?

Penn Holderness: 

Well, you write the book you need, right? I think I needed this book. I think Kim needed this book. And I also kind of think the world needs this book. Specifically, I needed this book because I had graduated from being married without kids, to being married with kids, to being married with kids and working predominantly with my wife. And it started to put some tax on my executive functioning. And while I thought I had all of the systems in place that I needed to be successful and to thrive. As someone with ADHD, it became abundantly clear that I needed a refresher course. And a big part of that was doing a dive on what ADHD really is, I don’t know that I ever fully understood it. I do, I like to say that the definition of ADHD is a little ADHD. Like it’s kind of all over the place. So, another reason I think that the world needed this book, is because when we started putting content out about ADHD, we got a lot of admissions that this is a this is this is tough. This brings me shame, thank you for saying this. You know, no one ever talks about the good parts and the energetic parts of ADHD. And we do believe that it has wonderful upsides. However, as I said, I needed to work on managing some of my downsides. So that I did not drive my wife crazy. Well,

Kim Holderness: 

I’m the type of person where if I have a name for something, or I can better understand it, it just helps explain it. And we say in our family, ADHD is an explanation, not an excuse. But just me as somebody who does not have ADHD, knowing the explanation of why, you know, he left the stove on, it didn’t even enter his working memory that he had turned the stove on in the morning, when he was doing five different things to get the kids out of the door. It didn’t even enter his working memory. So turning it off is going to be hard. And it was so incredibly frustrating. And I’m sure people can sympathize, you know, finding keys in their refrigerator or driving away and seeing his coffee mug on top of the car again, how can you not know how to do these things? And understanding now I understand his brain better. And I know our friend, Dr. Emily King has said she has this saying that they aren’t trying to make the world difficult. The world is difficult for them. And so it just helped me understand it. Do I still get frustrated? Absolutely. But now just understanding how his brain works. It’s just so much. It’s helped so much. Yeah, yeah.

Debbie: 

And, gosh, I already have three other questions that I had. But I guess just so I don’t lose track too much here. I wanted to even talk about the context in which the book is coming out. Because we know that I think COVID I think, you know, I started Tilt Parenting, it’s been eight years now. And just the neurodiversity movement has really changed and awareness. And so many adults are self identifying or being diagnosed because of who they’re, you know, going through this process with their kids. And so when you wrote the book and put it out there was it, you know, in part with those adults in mind, people who are really like, Oh, this is connecting the dots for me, and I don’t even know how to navigate it.

Penn Holderness: 

I think that’s a big part of it. Right? I think we have had quite a few people say, Oh, you are describing me. And it’s a fact that adults are massively under diagnosed for a couple of reasons. Number one, many of us when we were kids, this wasn’t a thing. You know, I didn’t know what it was until I was in college. They just don’t call them a space cadet. Right. And it’s not like I just got ADHD when I was old. I mean, I think you believe this as well, you either have it or you don’t. It’s the way your brain’s wired. It’s not a behavioral trait, which is another thing a lot of people don’t understand. Women are super misdiagnosed, and not just because they haven’t heard of ADHD, because women have been, from the time they were girls, expected to internalize their difficulties and their differences and sit still and be quiet. And, you know, boys will be boys. So those were a little bit easier to get diagnosed. And so, yeah, the adults are very much in mind, in particular, women, also minorities who are under diagnosed if you look up the data, because they’re all feeling a lot of shame right now. And they’re wondering, okay, what’s what’s wrong with me? Am I just incapable of doing this? And so I think the knowledge in the book and what you do as well, I think it’s gonna help people realize that, A, they can get systems in place to get through it, but also maybe even more importantly, be they’re not alone. Yeah.

Debbie: 

Yeah. And can you in the book, a note about the fact that you sometimes get responses from people who are watching your content who deny that ADHD is a thing? 

Kim Holderness:

ADHD Deniers? 

Penn Holderness:  

That’s that term? 

Debbie:

It’s a good term. And I’m wondering about, and you talked a little bit about this in, you know, your introduction to this collaboration for the book. But I’d love to know a little bit more about your awareness and understanding. You know, I know, Penn that you were, you know, you were identified as he in college. So presumably, you knew this going into your relationship, but in terms of your own, like, this is actually Oh, a real thing. What does that look like?

Kim Holderness:  

I have to say, everything that I love, or fell in love with, you know, on our first date, everything I loved about Penn was his ADHD brain. I didn’t have the name for it, because we grew up during the same time, it wasn’t a diagnosis that was often used. I didn’t understand it at all. But it also wasn’t worrisome. I mean, but if you list the things that, you know, I called my mom and told her like, oh, my gosh, you just went on this date with this guy. He’s hilarious and so spontaneous, and, you know, life of the party had everybody laughing. All of those things are his ADHD, all of those are the magic of his brain. And I wasn’t even something I was worried about, because I was the most important person to him. And it didn’t become I didn’t realize, Oh, crap. I’ve married somebody with ADHD until we had kids. And there was this other living, breathing thing that needed attention. And when I wasn’t the only thing he was focusing on, because he, he actually was the stay at home dad, I went back to work after our first or after our daughter was born, and he stayed home with her. He did such a good job at that, because that was his he loved it. And it was such a special time. But it was, I could see that the daughter was cared for. She was perfect. But nothing like the chaos around everything else. It’s so much to manage a small child and infant especially. And it was fine. But it became obvious that oh, he cannot spin all of these plates that are required for marriage and parenting and working. At the same time.

Penn Holderness:  

Maybe you should have been aware. Or like on the third date when you were like, Hey, can you take care of my nieces for me? Oh, that was?

Kim Holderness:

Well, yeah, we were new and my nieces needed childcare. And he stepped in. But anyway, it’s fine. But he did a great job. They were alive. But that’s when it became an issue. You know, that’s when it became an issue when we had kids.

Debbie:  

Yeah, yeah, it’s a lot of pressure suddenly placed and a lot more demands for sure. So going back a little bit to tip pen. I know from hearing your story and reading your book that it was in college and you share in the book how you got that identification. I’m curious to know what you thought about yourself before and after the diagnosis if that makes sense. You know, you talk about your you know, your experiences as a kid and you know, and how you were perceived. And I’m so I’m just more curious about how did you What did you make that mean? How did you internalize that and what did it feel like after you got the diagnosis?

Penn Holderness: 

My parents did a great job without knowing what ADHD was. I think taking a strengths based approach of raising me to quote Ned Hallowel, we’d love to use that term. Love Ned. Yes, love Ned. Which I think was okay. You’re creative.

Kim Holderness:  

You are…you’ve a lot of energy. 

Penn Holderness: 

Yeah, you’re energetic, like using those kinds of positive words. So they tried their best but no, I thought I was a little weird. Like I cried really easily. He and I couldn’t explain why, like I would flood and, and in my brain telling yourself to stop crying makes it worse, right? There was just nothing I could do to regulate the right way. So I felt a little broken in that sense. I also felt weird that I would just do things, small things, but things without realizing I was doing them. And, you know, my friends would be like, Why are you doing that? Why? My Why do you have a giant ring of saliva from chewing on your shirt, like all day, which apparently I’m learning because I talked about that in a video earlier. That’s like a fairly common ADHD trait. And no one really talks about the tipping point, this is how I knew I was weird. And you brought it up. We were at my grandmother’s funeral talking about the end of this sort of summer trip that we were going to take. And I was very sad and very stressed out. Because it was my favorite two weeks of the entire year. And I was sitting there thinking about all the great times I’d spent with my grandmother, and we were having a serious conversation with our entire family there. And my aunt Zell, who was like the stereotypical Southern woman, was obviously trying to keep this conversation serious. She’s like picking up so I can’t concentrate with you chewing on that used flyswatter. And I’d taken a used flyswatter that had just been used to kill a fly and was chewing on it. Like it was halfway in my mouth. And everyone laughed. I’m glad they laughed. But I had no idea that it was in my mouth, no clue. And so how did I feel? I felt weird. I felt like I couldn’t control things that at that point may not have been that important. But obviously, affecting other people if it stopped a very important conversation. Yeah.

Debbie:  

And then, once you were like, Oh, this is what’s going on. There’s a reason I imagined it wasn’t like a light switch. Like suddenly it all came together and you felt great about it, you know, did you have a kind of process to really embrace because you have such a positive, you know, strengths based approach, and you really lean into all of who you are. Did that happen right away?

Penn Holderness:  

It didn’t happen right away, because the doctor gave me the original Driven to Distraction book, and I put it in the back of my car, and I never read it because I have ADHD, like they should, they need to find some way to fit like doctors. When they give you a book. They’d be like…

Kim Holderness: 

Okay, we’re gonna meet after chapter one discussion, or here…

Penn Holderness:

Here’s the video. Like, I don’t know, like one of those two things for the book, dude, I know. Well, see, our book is a little more colorful. We do have a lot of color. It’s like a textbook vibe. Yeah. So anyway, I don’t know that I took the best route, the most holistic route, when we first got started, because I got on medication. And the medication certainly helped. I only used it for about a year because I felt like it made me a slightly different person. And this is not to dog on medication. I know there’s a lot of people who really benefit from it. But it was a band aid that got me through college to the last year in college. And so the realization was very gradual. And the biggest realizations haven’t been until the last few years, when I released when we really started researching. I think it was always just a band aid. I mean, finding the job that I found was a band aid, like being a creator, is the most ADHD friendly job ever. Kim, don’t you think like most definitely a majority of people who do what we do probably have some level of ADHD or this type of brain. But it took a deep dive into really understanding it. Until the light switch got flipped on?

Debbie:  

Yeah. Well, that’s really helpful. Thank you for sharing that. I want to talk about a couple of the chapters in your book. So one of the chapters that I loved in the book and also just to speak to what you just mentioned about the design, it is such a fun read. I used to write books for teens and I always have loved the more magazine format. I think that way too, I think in bullet points, I think in little sidebars and call outs and graphics and so it is a very friendly and engaging book. 

Penn Holderness: 

Thank you. That was the point we wanted to make sure it was formatted For the ADHD brain, yeah. And a lot of credit to Kim on that she fought back like getting a publisher to print in color is a lot of money…

Kim Holderness:

Yeah, it was, yeah, a lot of armwrestling. But I think everybody is very happy with it. 

Debbie:  

Yeah, well done, well done. So there’s a chapter that I loved called Operation mindset shift. And you have something called the reframe game. This is something we talk a lot about, at tilt parenting is reframing those like relative weaknesses into potential strengths and just looking at every potential weakness as well. There’s also a flip side to that. So, for example, instead of hyper you reframe it as energetic instead of misfit, you reframe it as one of my favorite words, nonconformist. Risk taking is now bravery. As I’m writing this at my senior pool in high school, I was voted among other things, class clown and best excuse maker. Oh, you Yeah. So I was like, I was like, okay, for me would be “creator of alternative possibilities” is what I came up with. Yeah. But I just love that so much. And I’m curious to know from both of your perspectives, what reframe personally has been the most powerful for you. So for you pen and for you came in the way that you perceive or experience Penn.

Kim Holderness  

Oh  my God, this is a good one. Okay. You go first Penn.

Penn Holderness:  

I mean, hyper and energetic. That was a big one. For me. It was just, it was because I had been called hyper, most of my life, at least at certain times, sometimes times when I shouldn’t act that way. And energy is good. You know, it may not be what everyone else does. It may not be how everyone else does it. But even fidgeting. Do you know this? Do you know fidgeting burns? 500 calories a day? Yeah. So yeah, so every new keto it’s the new ozempic.

Kim Holderness: 

Oh, okay. You’re using a very triggering word. I would say and this has to do more with my parenting journey with this. And you know, we are careful about how we talk about this, but my son who has my husband’s brain, and is wildly creative, and empathetic and just checks all the boxes. He talks very quickly, and sometimes we’re like, okay, buddy, slow it down, smooth it out. Because he’s trying to get to the punchline so fast. And it’s always so funny. But he’s, so I’ve had to reframe in my head, it’s because his brain is firing so fast. His brain is working. He has a Ferrari brain. And his mouth has yet to catch up with that. But instead of saying, Oh, my kid, he’s, he can’t understand anything. He’s saying. Everything is firing so fast. And once as you know, once the rest of it catches up, it’s going to be amazing. What was it that Ned said about the Ferrari brand on a base with bicycle brakes. Yeah. That’s what it was. Yeah. And that helped me too. I’m like, Oh, he has a Ferrari inside that head of his and he is, he is, he is all in his mind. He’s three sentences ahead of what’s coming out of his mouth. Yeah. And it’s, I know it because I live with it. But I’m also aware that we meet people and he’s excited to meet people. And I’m like, okay.

Penn Holderness:  

Yeah, bring it down. And then March Madness. 

Kim Holderness: 

Oh, and then you talk about fast. Buddy trouble. Yeah. Bring it down.

Debbie: 

Okay. Especially interested in basketball. Good. Yeah. Yeah. I love the metaphors, I think that Ned’s metaphor. It is so helpful to keep in mind, especially with kids who are, you know, if they’re wired differently from us, and their behavior can be so perplexing, and we can’t make sense of it. I’m just thinking of my kiddo who’s now 19, ADHD, or who I really had to work on the interruptions, and my husband too, was like, would get so frustrated. And so just even reframe, it’s like, Oh, you’re so excited. Like, I can tell you a lot. You want to say, you know, and even just thinking of how to say, can you hold that thought, well, I finished my thought, or I’m gonna lose my train of thought, but I really want to hear what you have to say that was huge, instead of being frustrated or annoyed with those interruptions…

Kim Holderness:  

And it’s hard not to be annoyed. Right? And it’s, it’s because you have something you’re trying to get out. And even with my sweet husband, he has learned we’ve learned about kinetic interruptions because he has gotten better about not interrupting but you can see he wants to say something and he’s like, and he’s like, moving around like he’s so his. He’s like, I have something I want to say and it’s so good…

Penn Holderness:  

But there’s a difference between kinetic and non kinetic interruptions. I’m doing a kinetic interruption right now. That’s when you yes and and continue to think and then allow the other person and he’s…

Kim Holderness:

But then he’s like moving around like oh, he’s squirming so we were aware of those as well. 

Penn Holderness: 

Deer are really weird animals. Now that’s a non kinetic interruption. Okay,

Kim Holderness: 

I know. Anyway, okay, that was bad. Okay. But when he’s physically moving around just wanting to say something, and yeah, we’re working on it.

Debbie:  

Yeah, when you notice that, and then you’re done. It’s hard. Yeah.

Kim Holderness:

It’s hard to finish your thought. Yeah, absolutely.

Debbie: 

So, you know, I just want to give a shout out to Ned Hallowel as well, you guys, you know, refer to him in the book. He’s amazing. We’ve had him on the show — listeners, go back and listen to that episode with Ned if you haven’t listened to it. It was a great conversation about I think we talked about his ADHD 2.0 book, which was fantastic. So good. Yeah. But he is so focused on strengths. And so I’m, I’d love to know a little bit more about what focusing on strengths has meant for you. Personally, and, and as, as a parent, just encouraging your kiddos to focus on their strengths in the way that their brains are wired?

Penn Holderness:  

Well, for me, I think when you focus on your strengths, you look for things that help feed those strengths, instead of avoiding those things that you’re not good at. And if you start with that mindset, in my opinion, you’re going to find a better job and you’re going to find a better school, you’re going to find a better relationship. And you’re going to be part of a better family. If you focus on those things, and you really prioritize those things, while putting, you know, on the back end, making sure you have those systems in place so that you don’t drive people crazy. I

Kim Holderness:

I don’t think you have to have ADHD, to realize when I get a compliment on something, I had a third grade teacher who said, you’re a good writer. And now look at what I do for a living. And I hear I’m good at something. And I just want to keep doing that. So in my role, I have to find my ADHD or strengths. And I keep rewarding that. I catch them mid act. I walk in, and oh my gosh, thank you for putting everything away. You know, I mean, he’s a grown adult. But still, we all want to hear all the things we’ve done. Well, thank you so much for listening to me, I was really concerned about this thing. And thank you so much for really focusing and listening to our conversation with my son last night. Hey, buddy, for the last five minutes, we’ve had this great conversation and you haven’t, you know, I’ve understood everything you’ve said, and you’ve not interrupted me. And that was last night. And he said, he goes, I’m really working on that. But it’s really hard for my brain. And so just finding those moments to find the strengths, and then reward the work that they’re doing. That’s been a game changer for us at least.

Debbie: 

Yeah, absolutely. Because there’s so much shame, you know, built into being neurodivergent. And it’s unfortunately, the experience that so many of our kids and now adults have from the way it was perceived. So yeah, I don’t know what the ratio is. But I know that there’s this idea that we should be, you know, like eight to one or something for every kind of one, you know, calling out or saying, oh, you know, this was hard. Or maybe we could try this. We want the rest to really be positive reinforcement. Yeah, really important. There’s another chapter that I loved called the ADHD upsides for others in which you share the ways in which the many traits of ADHD can actually be gifts to everyone, to their communities, to their friendships, to their partners. And I really liked your note Kim in there — top 10 reasons why having a partner with ADHD doesn’t totally suck. I’m wondering if you could share. You know, a couple examples. Me you talked about when you were dating, but that you were the focus, but what are some other examples of ways in which pins ADHD has actually been a great upside… 

Kim Holderness:

That’s not sucked? Yeah, you know, listen, I know ADHD is like any neurodiversity. There is a spectrum. My guy happens to also have ADHD, but he’s also an extrovert. So that pairs well with my introverted anxiety ridden self. So the fact that he can walk into a room and jump into any conversation, and because of his hyper focus, he knows a lot of random crap, because he will go down a rabbit hole All on moon phases. And so we will walk into conversations and I, I literally am just along for the ride and I just bandwagon it. I think that there has not been a dinner in our house we have with teenagers. And so sometimes dinners are at random times, and it’s kind of grabby, but every time we’re sitting around the table with each other, He’s invented a new game. He’s, he’s, he’s, Hey, okay, top 10 reasons why. And it’s just, it’s getting our brains working. There’s always so much laughter. And sometimes I sit there, as somebody who grew up and my house was fine growing up, like we were all fine. There’s nothing to complain about. But it was not that as much fun dinner times were not something I look forward to. And he’s created a space in which our teenagers love sitting with us at dinner, because there’s always random, random things this man comes up with. So I think it’s been, it’s been a gift to sort of witness that as somebody who did not grow up in an environment like that at all. Just seeing how spontaneity and creativity manifests itself in daily life.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s great. And having teens who enjoy coming to the dinner table, I know is not easily achieved by many families. So that’s awesome. I want to talk about a few other things in your book. Specifically, I want to touch upon some of your best hacks for yourself, actually, for both of you. I want to hear from both of you. Okay, so pen I know from reading your book that and you mentioned earlier, you use ADHD meds in college, but you’re managing without meds since then we’re and again, we’re not going to talk about meds. We’ve discussed it in other episodes. Ned is very open about it, too, that they don’t work for some people. And it’s really important to understand yourself. And you know, I think of it as hacking yourself. So I’m curious to know, what a couple of your best hacks for yourself are in the ways that you’ve found to best manage some of the more challenging aspects of your ADHD? ,

Penn Holderness:  

Yeah, I always say this overarching ly. Most importantly, when I look at hacks, like those are, like you said, a way to hack yourself, you need to do them one at a time, you need to implement them one at a time. You also need to prioritize them, not based on what you need, but how it’s affecting the people around you. I firmly believe this because if you’re going to be in a relationship, like Kim can find ways to not find ways Kim justifiably is irritated by some of my ADHD behavior. Some of it is stuff that I am surprised that bothers her because my brain is built differently. Like, I crumble up my napkins in front of us, well, that was because I shaved half of my face off this morning. You know, I play with my silverware, like fidget, I stand up and I leave the chair out and I don’t push it back in. I leave the stove on, I leave my keys in the car, there’s a lot I asked her to make lists for me and she doesn’t, I’m a grown man, she doesn’t want me to do that. Alright, so that’s a lot, right. But if she had to rank from one to five, what she is worried about the most, the top three for her are going to be don’t make me a list, you’re a grown man. Don’t leave the burner on, you’re gonna burn down the house, don’t leave the keys in the car, or the car is gonna get stolen and people are gonna use the garage to open so like general safety issues mixed with another like you’re a grown man. So I just wanted to give that little TED talk really quickly before I answer your question. For the list, if you have ADHD, all you have to do is put a little box next to everything that you have on the list. And then when you check it off, it feels really good. So like that, I make a list and put a little box next to it. Mini dopamine hit for you right there. So lists are good for us getting back home mentally to what it is that we’re doing so that we’re not wandering too far off. For the keys in the car. I have a song that I sing called glasses, wallet, keys and phone keeps all my stuff together. Do you sing it? It’s well it’s just glasses while the keys and phone keys and phone. Yeah, that’s all you need. I’m also huge fan of cargo pants. This has been met with resistance by some fashionistas that we’ve spoken to which is okay.

Kim Holderness:

I think cargo shorts are just not the look. But we have found a brand of shorts that has zippered pockets. Yeah. So that’s better than the car.

Penn Holderness:  

I just think you want to keep things on your person at all times because as soon as they leave your person, they exit your working memory. And that’s that’s trouble. So like, I have several hacks and the magnet on top for that. Oh, yeah, so we just put crap on top of my car all the time, when I’m getting ready to put other stuff in my car. And I just have a magnet on top of my car. The magnet doesn’t hold anything. It’s just a reminder, a little note, like don’t leave stuff on top of the car. And so that’s been really useful. 

Kim Holderness  

Though you did leave something on the top of Lola’s. Yeah, it doesn’t have a magnet on top. She goes, Dad, you left a plate on top of my car. And how did that happen? 

Penn Holderness: 

Because she asked me to put stuff in the car for her and I was holding a plate dish. So the biggest hack in the last year has been thanks to Siri, just telling my phone to set an alarm and a timer every time I turn the stove on, because the gas stove won’t turn itself off. It just keeps on going. And I know a lot of ADHD errs, who have struggled with this, just turning the stove back off. So I set the alarm for however long I think I’m going to be cooking. And I leave the phone with me at all times. And since then I’ve not left the stove on so that’s been nice. 

Debbie:

That’s great. I’m just as you’re saying that I’m thinking that technology is so helpful. It can be…

Kim Holderness  

But it can also be really distracting…

Debbie:  

As soon as I said that, yes. But you know, I have a friend, a colleague in this space. And he every time we’re zooming there’s like, you know, this alarm going up or this series saying this and Alexis saying this. But you know, those when used well can be really helpful. Yes. So okay, thank you for sharing some seasoning. Thank you for sharing some of those very interesting hacks. And I like kind of getting a little glimpse into your Your World, Your why came, I have the same question for you. So you write in the book about ways that you anticipate some of Penn’s needs and support that executive functioning, which is something you know, so many parents are their kids’ prefrontal cortex for much of their life. So you have a chapter called How to be an ADHD Whisperer in the book, which was awesome. Awesome. So I’m just wondering, what are some of your best hacks for best showing up for and supporting Penn in a way that feels good for you, and for both of you?

Kim Holderness:

The first thing was so hard for me to wrap my head around, because of my Enneagram style, I hate this label, but I’m a perfectionist, which makes you a perfectionist. I don’t love that label. But I tend to see the world in black and white. And it’s very simple. You turn on the stove, why wouldn’t you turn off the stove? So for my guy, I know. And for my son, they feel shame when they screw up, and they don’t need me to pile on. But before I did the deep dive into understanding this brain, I will admit that I was not particularly kind. So it still gets left on. Are you kidding me? You’re gonna burn down the house. He was already in tears. Like he was already in tears about it. So the advice that was given to me that has worked is offering comfort, offering connection, not criticism. And for my brain that is so quick to criticize. Offering that connection and that comfort has been huge. I think. So if it’s not Hey, babe, it’s fine. Don’t worry about it’s just your ad HD. That’s not it. I’m not saying you have an excuse to act like this. I’m saying, Wow, that really sucks. I’m sorry, that happened. That really sucks. And just being a safe space for that. It sounds so simple, but for me, it was not. And another thing is finding those moments to praise. Finding those moments as another way to offer connection. And as a grown man, I’m not going to make his list. I will review his list if we are hosting a party, he’ll say Hey, this is what I’m thinking needs to happen. Can you check it out? Absolutely. I’m there. For my son. He’s 14. It is my job to help him. Learn how to do these to put these systems in place. And very simply and your audience probably knows this. I can’t tell them five things to do unless they’re written down. So it’s not this morning. It wasn’t eat breakfast, put on your shoes. Get your homework. Did you bring your basketball like I can’t say there’s five things in a row. And I almost killed him this morning, while my son was trying to eat breakfast, he had him fill out his NCAA college basketball bracket. Our son is not going to eat if you put something of great interest in front of him. So I had to take it away. I’m saying we do one thing at a time, dude. So but to him, the most important thing was the brackets because you know the game starts, right. 

Penn Holderness: 

So I don’t see the problem here. So talking about March Madness, he’s got to get a bracket filled out.

Kim Holderness:

I know, but I needed him to. So it’s the one thing at a time approach.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s helpful. Those competing interests can be really hard. But even as you were talking about the things that you have changed, or the ways that you accommodate and support Penn your tone changed to like, I can tell that it feels better for you to to be empathetic. And to be to have done this, reframe the way you’re looking at each other. She noticed the change in tone.

Kim Holderness:

And tone. Nice. That’s nice. We’ve been to marriage counseling, y’all. We’ve worked on this. 

Penn Holderness: 

And I do want to say this, like you mentioned, the Eneagram. And so just like I, my ADHD helps explain some things and causes, she needs to have grace on that. Like, I need to understand that she is wired differently as well. She is a perfectionist, and she married a guy with ADHD. So I also have to listen to respect everything that she says but take sometimes the tone with a grain of salt. Because you, I mean, you’re wired to expect greatness. And that’s, that’s fine. 

Kim Holderness:  

That’s fine, like greatness, but just my brain works best with order. His brain excels in disorder. That’s true. And so that has been and it is insane. We have met so many couples who have the same dynamic. I have been very open. I have been diagnosed. I went to a psychiatrist diagnosed with an anxiety level to enter OCD. Will Smith’s little little sprinkled on top. And we’ve met so many people where one has anxiety and one has ADHD. Something about the pairing just works.

Penn Holderness: 

Yeah, there’s something in the very early stages. That is exciting and cool. And like different opposites attract. You know, what’s her name, said? Paula Abdul. Paula Abdul said…

Kim Holderness:

Yes, great. 

Penn Holderness:

As the great psychiatrist Paula Abdul said, opposites attract, I still could not be luckier as a husband. But it is interesting that those things attract. And then I think later on in life, we have to learn both of us how to how to manage them

Kim Holderness:  

And like, well, crap, we’re here to make this work.

Penn Holderness:

But don’t you think the best way is talking about it? Like that’s, that’s something that we’ve been able to do?

Debbie:

Absolutely. So just to put it out there, it’s so much more interesting. I mean, I talk with my community about this all the time, like if we were raising neurotypical kids, boring, you know, boring, where would the growth happen? Like we are parents really forced to dig deep and examine ourselves and grow individually. And I think what you’re describing is that the dynamic between these two neuro types is really demanding. And if you’re willing to put in the work and show up, it can lead to such a more fulfilling relationship. So I might read,

Kim Holderness: 

Put that on a t- shirt. I mean, it’s a little long for a T-shirt, but I think it should be a t- shirt.

Penn Holderness: 

Small print, very small…

Debbie:

Very small print. So okay, as a way of wrapping up, I’d love to just touch upon the title of your book. It is called ADHD is awesome. A Guide to (Mostly) Thriving with ADHD. So you define the word awesome, right in the very beginning. And I just think that it’s important to do because you’re not saying everything’s great, but can you talk about why you wanted to use that title and what it means in context with the book?

Penn Holderness:  

Yes, thank you for asking. First of all, it’s a fun little trip down Webster’s Dictionary lane where you can learn that the definition of awesome is not just great and fantastic, as you just said, but also inspiring fear. I’m gonna look up the hand me the book because I’m gonna read it.

Kim Holderness:

Exactly. That’s that’s not that’s not. Who did. Yep.

Penn Holderness:

It’s a huge, colorful letters on the cover and I’m such an old man, you’d like my readers. extremely impressive or daunting, inspiring, great admiration, apprehension or fear. That is the definition of awesome we You have been using it in mostly one way, as a group as the world for quite some time. The truth is, it just means something bigger than you, right? Which can either make you inspired or it can make you scared. ADHD does all those things, I think. However, I’m fine. If people want to focus on the positive side, the strengths based side of it, which is great. ADHD. Dr. Hallowell was right, once you manage the systems on the weak side, right? The strong side can be spectacular, the world would be a boring place without all of us. And so ADHD needs a rebrand as it is because the name is so awful. We don’t have a deficit of attention, we have plenty of attention. Many of us are not hyperactive. Sometimes we’re inattentive. Disorder, just sounds mean. I mean, we’ve renamed a lot of other things. Autism Spectrum Disorder wasn’t called what it was called 15 years ago. And so we felt that ADHD needed a little bit of a rebrand in that sense. And so calling it awesome. Even though some people may say, oh, it’s not awesome. I go through this, like a daily struggle. It can be.

Kim Holderness:

We do get, I appreciate your question. Because we do get plenty of comments giving us basically the middle finger, saying, I’ve just lost my job. I can’t keep relationships, it’s the opposite of awesome. And I don’t want to hit these sweet souls back with the actual definition. But it is something that we wanted to include, because there are plenty of times when ADHD is pure trash. So something that is very daunting to take on.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s a whole Sorry, I’m gonna I don’t want to do it. Okay. Yeah, I just appreciate you saying that. I mean, again, that’s a big reason why I started Tilt Parenting was because, like, I felt like, this is a club I do not want to be in because all the languaging and messaging about my experience sucks. Like, it feels terrible. It feels like I drew the short straw. So I do think everything needs rebranding. And so I really appreciate the book that you’re putting out into the world and being a vocal leader in that movement. So before we say goodbye, any thing we didn’t touch upon that you would want my listeners to know. And then I’m sure people know where to find you. I have that in the show notes page, but anything you want them to engage with.

Kim Holderness: 

Feel like you did such a good job covering this. i We are. So we have the advanced copies of the book, the ones that are in color, and then and those were on our kitchen table last night, and my sweet scent. We’re never going to make our kids watch our content or engage with anything. And I found him in bed last night reading it. And did you not ask him to? I did not. Wow. And he was reading it. And he’s just a good kid. He’s just a sweet kid. And he said, Is it okay, just took a while, I’m a very slow reader. Because sometimes I have to read things a couple times. I said, Hey, there’s no contest here. And we have, we’ve obviously recorded the audio for it, too. So he, his idea is, we have that we have the sample of the audio because we’re editing that too. And he wants to play the audio, as he’s reading it, because he goes, I just want to make sure it really gets into my brain. And I just like that he’s just like, he wants to know more about his brain. And it’s just, even if nobody reads this book, but my son, I’m so proud of UPenn for putting this into the world because it’s like a love letter. And I’m just so excited for people to read it and know more about it.

Penn Holderness:

That’s pretty sweet. I have nothing further.

Debbie:

That is a very sweet story. And as I was reading it, too. Yeah, my kiddo doesn’t. doesn’t like to read a lot in this space. But I was like, definitely handing this book over. 

Kim Holderness:  

And then the idea is that you could say, hey, this, just read this, like an infographic. Yeah, you could jump in and hand it or like put a post it note during this chapter. And you could sort of jump in it kind of how I thought it could happen with kids.

Penn Holderness: 

Yeah, and this is a podcast. So I will mention one more thing, because you can’t see what we’re talking about. But there’s great illustrations from Sarah Campo who works at the New Yorker. She’s incredibly creative. She made these little like brain mascots for us and they’re simple illustrations. They’re not over the top.

Kim Holderness:

Show you the other one. Yeah. And then we do. I think we have something at all levels. 

Penn Holderness:

Yeah, it’s very rainbow colored there are post it notes all over the place, which is just, I just went ahead and put in there because I felt like sometimes people with ADHD will read the post it notes easier than they’ll read the actual stuff. So there’s a lot of post it notes in there. And just ways to give your brain a break over time, you’re not going to get eight pages of heavy text, there’s going to be diversions. And so that’s that again, this was Kim. Well, with help this was what was your brainchild saying, Look, this has to be color. This has to feel like we use I think John Stewart’s America this great, great sort of fake tech textbook that the daily show did as a way to, to engage people all the way through the book. And so we just got this color copy last night and we’re over the joy over the joy. Now we’re over the moon joy. We’re over the joy over the joy. 

Debbie:

Yeah, it’s beautiful. Thank you for showing that to me. I’ll get my color copy as well. And I just want to say thank you so much. I so enjoyed this conversation. I appreciate you taking the time. And putting this out into the world. I know I know what it takes to write a book. It’s a huge lift. And this is such a gift to all of us. So thank you so much.

Kim Holderness:

Thank you. Thanks for having us. 

Penn Holderness:  

And thank you for what you do.

Debbie: 

Thank you.