Autistic Therapist Kate McNulty on Neurodiverse Couples

Debbie Reber:

Hello, Kate. Welcome to the podcast.

Kate McNulty: 3:02

Hi, Debbie. Thanks for making time to talk with me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Debbie Reber: 3:06

I’m really looking forward to this. I was intrigued when he reached out to me and you shared your new book with me. And yeah, I think we’re gonna have an interesting conversation today. And before we get into that and learn more about your book and the work that you do, could you tell us a little bit about kind of who you are in the world, and a little bit about your story?

Kate McNulty: 3:28

Yeah, I’ve been a therapist. For many years, this has been my only career. And I didn’t know much about autism until one of my kids started talking to me about it as a young adult. And when that came up, I, I started reading and researching and recognize that I’m autistic and that I had two autistic kids. And it’s been really a wonderful pivot in my career to learn about this and get to work with more autistic people. And so when this book was offered to me to write, I was just really delighted to plow into the research and get even more well informed about it.

Debbie Reber: 4:11

And how long ago was that, that you self identified as being autistic and kind of made that pivot?

Kate McNulty: 4:17

It’s been about eight years now. So I’ve had a lot of time to get used to the idea and kind of construct a new identity because I think something that happens for many of us when we recognize this, especially later in life is that you, you do this kind of retrospective and it’s like zooming through your life with a wider lens. And so having that recognition that explains so many events or incidences or experiences is just really a lot to get used to.

Debbie Reber: 4:50

Does that I’m curious if that still happens, even if you still are making connections about things from your childhood in your new identity.

Kate McNulty: 4:59

Yeah. absolutely and also just looking back through what I know of the generations as well, and speculating on how my parents who I now clearly recognize were autistic may have sense things differently from the majority population or just had maybe unusual experiences that I didn’t, I didn’t come o recognize until, sadly, it was too late to talk to them about it. But I still kind of feel like I have conversations in my head with them all the time about being autistic.

Debbie Reber: 5:28

I think that so many listeners are going to relate to this experience. I know that many people in this differently wired community and the Tilt Parenting audience have discovered their own neurodivergence through going through the process of learning more about their kids. And so I think it’s really such an interesting perspective to just know what that experience is like, as an adult to reclaim and make sense of, and then I think it changes how we show up for our kids to Right, absolutely. So we are going to be talking about your book, which came out last fall, it’s called Love and Asperger’s practical strategies to help couples understand each other and strengthen their connection. So can you share more about why this topic and why you decided to write this book?

Kate McNulty: 6:18

This came up for me because as I did more reading and listening about being autistic, one theme that was persistent, especially in the mental health arena was spouses who married or partnered with autistic people, and joined this kind of course of complaint. Like there was this sort of stigmatizing of the autistic partner and a way that neurotypical partners felt like they were making sacrifices, or they were burdened with an autistic partner, or it was just very difficult to be with somebody who was autistic. And I just thought, wow, somebody needs to step up and send out a different message, because I think that’s really doing a disservice to not only the autistic people, but anybody in the relationship like that, that there’s probably a lot being missed. So as I saw more couples and did more, thinking and reading about this, I certainly came to find that there are many traits that autistic people have that are just misperceived or misinterpreted by their neurotypical partners. And so anybody who can help shed some light on that, I thought, well, that will be a good service to offer. So because I’ve, I’ve been seeing couples for most of the last 20 years. So I was able to sort of represent the artistic point of view, but also write the book as an experienced couples therapist.

Debbie Reber: 7:50

It’s such a unique and important lens that you bring to this. And I will say that I hear I hear this a lot, too, you know, I have a membership community where I’m getting to know a number of parents who, who are, you know, co parenting raising kids with an autistic or otherwise neurodivergent partner and, and that is, that is its own thing, right? That is a whole other level of understanding and, and work really, that needs to be done in order to make that work so that everyone can show up for the kids as best as possible. But I’m wondering if you could share a little bit with us about, you know, what are some of the most common issues that you hear about from couples who maybe you use this term mixed neuro type, which I had never seen before? And I really like that language. So what are some of the most common challenges that couples in a mixed neurotype relationship are dealing with?

Kate McNulty: 8:50

One that comes up so very frequently is a spouse who will say, my partner’s not affectionate enough. I don’t know what they’re feeling, they don’t talk to me. So those kinds of patterns are things that I think neurotypical people are operating out of a limited kind of framework about what what affection looks like and how it gets expressed. And they’re thinking in conventional ways that might involve romantic gestures, or getting flowers or kind of unexpected, spontaneous, seductive behaviors, things like that. And so just helping people see that your artistic partner may be doing really kind things for you or considerations or just wanting to offer a kind of steadiness to you in your life that goes unrecognized.

Debbie Reber: 9:47

And Okay, so, I’m wondering that brought up another question that I’d love to hear if there are other common challenges that these couples have, but I’m wondering if this is something that Isn’t it evident at the beginning of a relationship, like our clients who come to you tend to be kind of down the road? And they’re, they’re realizing this is happening and it somehow wasn’t as evident in the beginning? Or is that the way that it’s always been? I’m just curious what that journey is like for couples.

Kate McNulty: 10:19

Yeah, I think part of what happens at the beginning of any relationship, of course, is infatuation blinds, assault, that’s the way we’re we’re made. So you know, people get, they fall in love with one another, and they later get a fuller picture of who the other person is. But I think to like characteristic of the relationships that I was writing about, the autistic person who’s dating a new partner is often doing a lot of masking, which is a term we use for autistic people kind of propping up a facade of looking normal or neurotypical, trying to fit in maybe being on their best behavior and trying to refrain from certain impulses, they might have like fidgeting or moving around a lot, or maybe saying odd things, unexpected things, but they’re not so likely to do that in a dating context. So then, when people get to know each other better later, as the relationship develops, some of these behaviors emerge, because they’re, they’re the natural person, you know, that’s the way the person is inclined to act in an ordinary living situation. And so these things might be off putting or irritating to the neurotypical partner who thought they had somebody different. And then later, they find about these other tendencies, or how much quiet the person might need or how little they want to attend family functions or loud, crowded events. You know, they went along during the dating time, because that’s what you do to be sociable. But as the months or years go by, it becomes apparent that’s not the way they actually live or what they prefer to do.

Debbie Reber: 12:02

And so how do you guide these couples through figuring this out together? I’m assuming that couples who come to you with these challenges or things showing up in their relationship, and the reason why you wrote the book is because they want to work on it, they want to stay connected, and they need guidance and how to do that. So what are some of the ways that you support couples in working through this?

Kate McNulty: 12:27

So often, by the time the couple comes to see me t e gateway is to help them pare t well together, you know, their agenda, if nothing else is like we want to do right by our children, even if we’re struggling in our marriage. So helping them recognize that their kids need to be in an atmosphere of affection, and calm and seeing parents support one another is a huge motivator for couples to work on their relationship. And so a lot of what I do is talk to people about what we know from the research about how couples can express caring and friendship to one another. And look for those, look for those overtures that their partner is making. So for example, with an autistic partner, maybe the ways that they show I love you are things like remembering to pick up the kind of tea like at the store, or i you’re going somewhere new, they might be the ones to put the Google directions in your phone. Or they might be trying to plan ahead about some kind of family event or outing and choose something that they know they can tolerate. So that s the kind of invitation that they might extend.

Debbie Reber: 13:42

So you talked about parenting, and I’d love to get into that a little bit more in terms of what do you see what I’ll share with you, what I hear from a lot of parents is that sometimes if they have a partner who is autistic or otherwise neurodivergent, sometimes they’re not on the same page, or there initially, there might be some, well, I was like that, and you know, it’s not that big of a deal. And just not not a willingness to kind of go down that path. Or this parent or co parent may not have already self identified or been identified as being on the spectrum or neurodivergent. So, so that is a source of frustration that I hear in parents and they kind of don’t know how to navigate that journey. I’m wondering what you hear in terms of that co parenting piece and where the biggest challenges lie.

Kate McNulty: 14:37

So you’re saying the neurodivergent person might minimize difficulties that their child is having that are visible to the neurotypical person? Yes. Yeah. So I do think that that’s a very common scenario. And I think that, you know, just getting the best objective information you can about your child’s difficulties. behaviors, and just trying to be objective and showing that we have information from research is often a really appealing stance for the neurodivergent person who might be convinced by something that’s beyond just the other parents subjective observations. And really having that I mean, having that compassion to for your partner and being able to tell them, Look, I see our child struggling. And if you struggled that way, too, that’s wrong. That’s unfortunate. I’m sorry that you went through that, you know, being able to offer them the, in retrospect, it’s kind of a wish fulfillment to say, oh, my goodness, I can imagine how hard that must admit for you as a child, I wish someone had taken care of this for you better.

Debbie Reber: 15:47

So I’m wondering if you’re gonna answer this question from two perspectives. And I hope that I can express it in a way that makes sense. So again, a lot of parents who I know are listening to this, they may be having a growing realization that their partner’s neurology may be similar to their child’s and that can be challenging for both people in that partnership, right, for a neuro typical parent who’s trying to figure out how to support a child and then also realizing Wait, I’m going through the same challenges with my partner, they may feel really isolated. And then the neural diversion partner also feeling not seeing that understood, not getting the support that they may need. So from both of those sides, how do you help both those parents work together?

Kate McNulty: 16:38

One thing that I teach people in therapy, you now, that I model for them, and want to encourage them to do i therapy is to listen for the part that you can’t agree with about what your partner’s saying, or listen for the part that you can validate. Like, even if you’re in opposition, or it’s hard to make a plan, having the attitude that I’m going to look for where the overlap is, and focus on that, and see if that helps us get further down the path. I think that’s one technique that couples can try to use because naturally, you know if we get in opposition, or we’re having a conflict with our partner, the way our brains are made is we want to argue, we want to keep making our own point, we want to say it again, and see want to say it louder, but that’s not going to help. So if we focus on where are there part that I can support about what my partner saying? Or where are the parts where I can say, I can see why it seems that way to you or, you know, I get that point of view. And that makes sense, you know, this part of that part. And yet, I’m asking you to keep considering the part that I’m pointing out. So I think looking for that area where there’s sort of overlapping circles in the conversation where you can agree on, and just continuing to emphasize that is one kind of a quick tip that I can offer. But yeah the I mean, I won’t deny it. These are complicated problems. And of course, we all care about our children, people get very impassioned, what I what I want to encourage people to d is avoid getting in such a position of advocacy for your child that you’re going against what your partner’s saying. Because if your kid feels that you’re in opposition, or there’s tens on about them, they’re going to react to that, you know they’re going to pick up on it at whether they overhear arguments or not, it doesn’t really matter. They’re attuned enough that they’re going to sense what the atmosphere is in your home. So the more you can work toward some kind of moving in the same direction with your partner, or, you know, if you can’ do that, it’s probably time to get some help from either a parent advocate or a therapist or somebody who can help you hash this stuff out. Because you do need to get united and you need to be moving in the same direction or your child will suffer for it.

Debbie Reber: 18:55

Yeah, I think that’s such an important point. And that is something I hear from, from a lot of parents who are, they do sometimes feel like it’s me and my child, or my children, against my partner, you know, that can become more of an adversarial or exclusionary relationship really. So I think that’s really important to be mindful of how critical it is for our kids that they feel that the parents are working together, and that they’re united and connected and parenting them. So I’m wondering if you could talk about the gifts of mix neuro type relationships, because I can only imagine that you also see in in your practice and when parents or couples come together to do this work, that these relationships can actually be really rich and deep and in a way that a neurotypical couple may not experience what what would you say are some of the gifts of mixed-neurotyp relationship

Kate McNulty: 19:59

To see how couples can sustain curiosity about one another is really exciting and rewarding. And I think that is an infinite journey for any couple, really, but it’s particularly challenging and deep, you know, it’s very intricate to get to know he internal world of another per on and how they tick. And if you aren’t naturally wired in the same way, and to look at the world the same way, it really does take some inquisitiveness. So I think doing that is one is one thing that couples can do. And I also think having that recognition that we each have our own strengths, and united it’s synergy, right, it’s he two of us are greater than the sum of our parts. And so when you have people who really have very different ways of operating and regarding the world and solving problems, that means that there are double strengths in the couple, because they both have ways of doing things that are quite diverse from one another and have that ability to be a perception check for each other. So just combining these kind of quirks or differences or unique viewpoints is a real strength for couples, again, when they can get in that mode of being appreciative of one another and kind of marveling at one another, you know, recognizing Well, you’re, you re really different from me, that’s pretty cool. You know, and the more people can do that, as a married couple, or partnered couple, the more they’re able to do that for their children or, to just affirm their, their uniqueness and have that appreciation and joy, that sense of I mean, the thing I really like about your book is it’s it’s kind of celebrate story, you know, it’s just really not this kind of jubilance in the book about how there’s so much possibility. It’s so exciting to look at how very different people are. And when we stop squelching ourselves and try to conform, we can invent and create and think up so many fascinating ideas and wonder ful solutions to problems that, you know, that’s really a source of delight and freshness for a couple.

Debbie Reber: 22:15

I love that. Let’s talk about kids for a moment. I’m just wondering for parents listening to this who have kids who are young adults who are entering into their own romantic relationships and exploring that, I think there’s a lot of fear and concern and worry among some parents like what is this going to look like? Is my child going to be able to navigate romantic relationship? And what might that look like? And how can I support my child so that they can, if that’s something they choose to pursue, and can do it in a way that can feel good for them? So what can parents of neurodivergent Kids expect, as they mature when it comes to love and romance?

Kate McNulty: 23:02

Big Question. It is a big question. And I think it’s a very compelling one. Because, you know, so much of our guidance and education for young adults has been rooted in fear. I mean, there’s another theme I appreciated about your book, that idea of possibility instead of fear. And so I think that applies also to parenting young adults and youth that we want to help people manage their vulnerabilities. And those are very real for neurodivergent kids, like ADHD kids who have a lot of impulsiveness, or who are going to go along with what the gang does, or kind of be the first one to take a leap. We need to find ways to protect those kids and help them manage their impulsive natures, by knowing themselves well, and giving them small opportunities to make choices and make decisions all along the path. So that they have more self awareness. And they have more, I think of both my children, and so many young people as experiential learners. Like the only way they’re really going to get it is when they get a chance to have the experience themselves. me talking about it or giving them a book to read. It’s just not going to hit the mark. So helping kids have a series of experiences and experiments with friendships or dealing with disappointment or frustration along the way in their lives, is the building or the building blocks we need for them so that when they reach adulthood, they can handle themselves capably. And the one sad thing we know about autistic people is they’re quite vulnerable to sexual exploitation and abuse. So we want to help protect kids with skills and awareness about how to assess who is a trustworthy person. And you know, that starts when they’re like six or seven, right? We don’t do that. We don’t deal with that when they’re 16 or 17. We need to start helping them do differentiate? How do we know if people are reliable? How do we know if we should let somebody in our inner circle or count on them to show up for our birthday party or whatever it may be, you know, we need to help our kids develop those skills. And really the the gift of autism is also though, pattern recognition, and having excellent observational skills, and being able to talk with a trusted adult, whether it’s you or a counselor, to have a confidant to run their perceptions by and get some feedback on. Like when I had hurt feelings from this friend, how could I have handled that? Or how do I deal with it if someone’s bullying me or teasing me in a mean way. So the roots of this begin when kids are quite young, that we want to help them lay the foundation for being able to size other people up and make reasonable judgments about people so that they don’t end up in troubled relationships or vulnerable situations without the skills to handle it. So for my kids, for example, that meant having personal cell phones was still quite new, and my kids were young. But I got them phones, as soon as I thought they could handle having a phone, because it really gave them a chance to move about in the world, but be accountable to me. And so my kids took that responsibility seriously. And one way that I knew I could rely on them was we always had agreements about when they would call me and check in, or when they would text and how they would let me know where they were. And fortunately, my kids were not so incredibly impulsive as some are, and they were able to manage that very capably. So I had this sense of consistency and reliability about them, that I was able to give them a measure of freedom. And fortunately, you know, it’s probably good luck as much as anything, like nothing terrible happened, nobody ever got arrested. Nobody got in kind of awful situations or an accident or anything drastic. And you know, my kids have landed on their own two feet, they’re in their 20s. Now they’re doing very well. But I think really, we need to be able to give our kids some series of experiences that allow them to attempt learning independently, when we can be confident there aren’t going to be catastrophic consequences from that.

Debbie Reber: 27:21

Such good, good advice. And I really appreciate all of that, that you just shared. And that reminder of starting young, with our kids and helping them really learn to tune in and trust their guts, right, trust their instincts, about about people and about their experiences and learn to to understand that I want to go back again to adulthood. In the beginning of our conversation, you mentioned that you were you identified as being autistic. I think you said around 10 years ago. This is something that is happening. I think many adults are starting to self identify more and more, whether it’s autism or ADHD or other neuro divergences. And I’m wondering if you have any, I’m imagining that supports the family, first of all the family dynamic to get that information. But do you have any best practices for navigating that process? If someone’s listening to this? And they’re like, Well, I think this might be going on with me. But is it worth finding out more or, you know, what would you advise them to do?

Kate McNulty: 28:31

I may be a heretic in my profession, but I say, just get on Twitter, or some social media site and use the hashtag #actuallyautistic. Learn from autistic adults. Really, unless there’s some reason you need a formal diagnosis for disability reasons or legal accommodations that your work. I frankly, would not waste the money on formal diagnosis. I think you’re going to learn more from autistic adults than any professionals. I’m sad to admit that the my mental health profession collectively is way behind the times on understanding autistic traits or being able to accurately diagnose people. We’ve got a lot of catching up to do with the general population in that sense. So just using the resources that are out there and getting on social media is my very best advice for first steps and educating yourself because many autistic people are so urgent about wanting to get the message out about the potential for your child, and how they’ve figured things out along the way as they become adults. And a lot of us are hyper verbal or hyperflex ik You know, there are a lot of writers who are autistic. There are a lot of prolific tweeters who are autistic. So there are many, many people who want to share their information with you and want to help you kind of join the community and jump on the bandwagon because there are a lot of us I think, I think there are Probably remarkable numbers of people who call themselves autism moms or autism, dads who they don’t realize they’re actually autistic to just like their child. So you know, just using the resources that are out there in the popular media and listening to autistic people who are already way down the road, and can really share a lot of useful information with you about what your child might be experiencing or needing. I think those are really your best resources. Certainly, there are a lot, lot more good books coming out all the time. But it’s never going to be at the speed of light, like the posts on social media.

Debbie Reber: 30:36

That’s great. And listeners, I’ll include some links in the show notes, as well. I know there are some r ally great Facebook groups and there is a lot of support out there. So I appreciate that advice. So I wanted to ask one last question. And then I’d love you to let us know h w people can learn more about our work. But when you first reached out to me, I got curious about the title of your book, which is love and Asperger’s. And I you know, language is such a conversation right ow in the autistic community. And I know that that term Asperger’s is, is a word that’s starting to be rejected by more and more folks, I’m curious to know more about the choice to use that word. And where you stand with that.

Kate McNulty: 31:22

I think there are a lot of people who self identified or got diagnosed around the time I did or a few years before who identified with Asperger’s, because that was the correct term at the time. And the the book title came about because of the publishers choice, their recommendation was based on search terms that people use. And it’s just kind of a funny split, that when we talk about children, we use the term autism. But many people who think of adults are still using the term Asperger’s, I think it’s just a kind of chronological ketchup that we’re doing, as a society to recognize that autistic children do grow up to become autistic adults. And so it’s okay to continue using that term. But I do recognize, I think a lot of people have a sense of collectivity, or identification with the term Asperger’s because it was current for a while. And, you know, those of us who are autistic, we don’t really get to belong in a lot of places, we don’t really get to be part of groups or clubs in a lot of ways that really feel comfortable to us. So I wouldn’t want to diminish the term Asperger’s for somebody who feels like that’s a way they want to identify. I think it’s, it’s just a very personal choice. I know a lot about the controversy behind the term Asperger’s, but I just think we need to make our own our own language about how we identify and so I call myself autistic. But if you don’t, that’s okay with me, I respect that.

Debbie Reber: 32:51

Thank you. Thank you for answering that. And yeah, I appreciate that. It’s something I’m super conscious of, just because my community has so many people in it from so many different cultural backgrounds and neuro divergent backgrounds. And so I’m very interested in language. So I appreciate that. So before we say goodbye, can you tell listeners where they can learn more about you and check out your book, which is a great read. By the way, if you are listening to this and you are in a mix, neuro type relationship, you will get so much out of this book. It’s very practical. And and as I said, a great read. So how can people connect with you, Kate?

Kate McNulty: 33:33

Yeah, thank you for your kind words, they can find the book Love and Asperger’s on any major boo outlet. I have another book coming out. It’s about a different topic. It’s called Paraenting Adult Children. So that one will also be released in June and that’ll be available on you know, bookshop or Amazon or wherever you prefer to pick up our books. But I have a website called autistic therapists calm and to make my wore accessible to more people, you know, I can’t see everybody for therapy, there’s only one of me. And I recognize therapy is a costly service. So I’m doing a series of information products and so you can buy some courses, some self study courses that I’m trying to make information rich. So f you want to go to autistictherapists.com you’ll find me there. And I also have that name on my social media presences.

Debbie Reber: 34:27

Fantastic. And listeners, as always, I will have links in the show notes. And now I would love if you could just tell us what parenting adult children is about. That sounds fascinating.

Kate McNulty: 34:37

Yeah, I wrote this book because I hear from so many people in both generations that there are young adults who are making decisions about whether to cut off contact with their parents, or their parents coming to me and talking about how, you know either my, my adult child won’t speak to me anymore, or I’m worried about them because they’re using alcohol and drugs. Or they’re in my house, and I don’t know how to get them to move out. So there’s a whole range of difficulties between the generations. And this book, too, is going to have just lots of information. It’s directed at the parents, of course, but just lots of information and techniques about how to talk effectively to your adult child, however old they are, whether they’re 18, or 47. And just to have some ways to demonstrate respect and draw boundaries, and, you know, do effective kinds of limits setting with the young adults in your life or to figure out if they’re drifting away, and you’re worried about losing contact, how to how to appeal to them, how to engage them, and how to strengthen your relationship so that, you know, you get the joy of the lifetime with the person that you’ve parented, not just the zero to 18 years of the heavy lifting. For me, my kids are in their late 20s. And it just keeps getting better. I’m just so delighted to watch them grow and have them in my life and be interested in what they’re thinking about. They keep me current on popular culture and other things, I would have no way of knowing. So I just think parenting should be a lifetime pleasure. And I want to help people have that sense that we don’t just boot our kids out at 18. And then they’re not relating to us anymore, or we become obsolete. We do the generations need each other. And there’s too much stratification in our society. We need parents and young adults to continue to relate and then teach one another.

Debbie Reber: 36:37

Sounds like a great resource. I look forward to checking that out. That’s very exciting. Well, Kate, thank you so much. This has been a very insightful conversation and so helpful, and I just appreciate I’m so happy you reached out to me and that we’ve gotten to connect and I look forward to staying in touch.

Kate McNulty: 36:54

Yeah, thank you so much. It’s really been a delight to talk to you.

Debbie Reber: 37:01

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