Bonus Conversation with Heather Chauvin on Navigating Unexpected Detours

Debbie Reber  

All right, friends, so excuse me. I have a little I’m a little like getting a little something in my throat. So if I have to clear my throat, apologies in advance. But I want to first of all, welcome you guys to the October expert visit with our special guest, Heather Chauvin. And as I said, When I reached out to you, Heather, I thought of you for this theme, specifically as we have been talking this month about navigating unexpected detours. And it comes after a month in which we were talking about how to bolster our emotional and energetic resources. So kind of a theme that a lot of us are dealing with this time of year and October tends to be full of surprises in many of our lives. So what I’d love to do is start by reading your bio. I always do that when I have a guest, and then we’ll just kind of jump in. This is a very casual conversation. Thanks for being on camera. You guys are on camera, and if you can’t be, that’s totally fine, like, just be here however you need to. 

Okay, so Heather Chauvin is a leadership coach who helps successful women courageously and authentically live work and parent on their own terms. Heather started her career as a social worker, helping adults understand children’s behavior. But it wasn’t until 2013 when a stage four cancer diagnosis pushed her to take a deeper stand for change, uncovering how cultural expectations sabotage our dreams. She’s been featured in Forbes, entrepreneur real simple magazine, Mind Body green, Google and more. And when Heather isn’t working, you’ll find her living out what she teaches, which may include kayaking, Alaska, snowboarding, hiking, anything else that challenges what she believes is possible for herself, and inviting her children along the journey. And I’ve had Heather on my show. She’s also the author of a wonderful book, dying to be a good mother. She’s a podcast host. She’s kind of like a, I was gonna say whirlwind. That’s not the right word, your powerhouse. And you’re also someone who I see is modeling so well navigating complex lives, with our kids and with our jobs and with our health and all of the things, and that’s the work that you do with women, primarily. So is there anything that is not in the bio I just read that you would want our community to know before we get started?

Heather Chauvin  

Yeah, just maybe I’m raising three boys. They’re currently 19. They always change their ages. And then I’m like, my little spiel goes off, but they’re 1915, and 12, and I would say, regardless of diagnosis, three very different brains, which has challenged me beyond so that’s the only other thing I would I would add to that, because sometimes people want to know, like, you know, who are you raising? How are you raising them? What are their ages? So that’s what I would add. Yeah,

Debbie Reber  

Okay, thank you for that. Yes, and they do keep growing and changing. And, yeah, yeah, it’s interesting. Some things get easier. I’m not sure if you notice it, but definitely there are so many things that get easier, but the things that are harder, or that are more they’re just more complex in ways I wasn’t expecting. So it’s like, it’s just been fascinating to kind of keep growing alongside our kids, I guess, yeah. So, okay, so, and also, just so you guys know the chat is open, so as we’re talking, anything that you want to ask this both Heather is here for, so pop it in the in the chat, or just like, raise your hand, and we can, we can talk together. So what I would love to start with. I know that a lot of folks in the club have listened to your podcast interview that I did with you for tilt, but for those who haven’t, and again, bearing in mind that our theme this month is unexpected detours, and we’ve been talking about how to navigate those, how to kind of pivot, how to kind of just move through those plot to us that come along, would you be willing to spend a little time talking with us about how you got through? I mean, this is your work, but how you got through kind of the massive detour that I mentioned in your bio in 2013 when you got to that stage for cancer diagnosis.

Heather Chauvin  

Yeah. So it’s interesting, because every single time I’m interviewed or asked about this, the cancer detour or story challenge comes up, because you know, when you hear stage four, there was no. Stage five, and it is one of those like back into a corner. Unfortunately, cancer is becoming a household name, and everyone knows someone who has been affected, and it’s not necessarily a rare occurrence anymore, but the reality is, life is going to throw curve balls at you, and whatever part of that, of our brain, you know, is surprised by that. So when we are growing in our resilience, when we’re growing in our ability to know that these big waves are going to come, we become a different version of ourselves. So just to go back a little bit I became a mother when I was 18 years old, and I was almost 19, and that was the first time I came into motherhood, but that was the first time I had this unexpected detour in my life. 

And every time we have uncertainty in our lives, we really see our coping strategies, but we also see like, what’s inside of us, right? They say, if somebody, if I’m holding my cup of coffee, and somebody walks by me and triggers me, like, life happens to you, whatever is inside of you is going to come up and out. And so when I found out I was pregnant, and that’s a whole other can of worms, and I talk a lot about it in my book, I was I was single, I was scared, I was afraid, and I also realized that the adults around me, like my parents, did not have the emotional intelligence to and leadership ability like to be a role model, to Be the adult that I needed as that teenager, and that was kind of like an aha for me at the moment. I didn’t realize that, so I had to become that person, and I swung the pendulum, as one does, to being the underachiever to the over achiever. And so what happens when you become the overachiever and you are terrified of failure, you do, do, do, do, and as you do, do do, you develop burnout, and people don’t even know that they are burnt out. Medic, mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually and culturally, what I was actually experiencing was pats on the back. Your super mom, you’re this, you’re this. Look at you, you’re doing it. And internally, when I went to bed at night, I would panic, because I’m thinking, is this motherhood? Is this adulthood? Because this is not sustainable. And so I am also the type of person to seek mentorship and role models. And so I did the thing. I went to therapy, I went to the doctors. I was like, Help me. Help me. Help me. I read the books. Actually. I didn’t really read that many books. I want to back up and go, I, I, I went to mainstream resources first, and they were like, Yeah, this is adulthood, yep, yep, yep. Or, like, you know, maybe you should meditate, or maybe you should do this, or maybe you should do that. 

But there was something deeper inside of me that was like, not this, not this, not this. And so that’s when I kind of fought outside the box and went on this journey. As I went on the journey, I became a social worker. I was working in child protection with high risk families. I was raising my son, and I’m co creating, and I’m not understanding his anxiety, and I’m, you know, I’m trying to do gentle parenting, conscious parenting. I’m reading the books, I’m doing the things, and I’m also working with parents who are struggling with the same thing, very different experiences. And I’m like, Yeah, I get it. And we’re labeling children. We are putting people in boxes. We’re giving protocols and diagnosis, but no life skills. And I could just see the disconnect so clearly. So fast forward with my diagnosis, nine years after my son was born, and I went on to have two more children and married, still married to my husband today, and I had nine years, almost a decade of personal development under my belt, where I hired the mentors, where I went to, the retreats, I read the books, I did all the things, and most of the work that I was doing was around personal development. It was business, you know, business and parenting got me. That was the hook for me, because I wanted to thrive, and then I wanted to be a better parent. But when I was diagnosed, there was one thing at the time my business was very child focused. It was parenting focused. And so I would hear things from women over and over and over again. Heather, I don’t have time to implement these strategies. Heather, I feel incredible. Incredibly disconnected in my marriage Heather, I like, I just can’t do this. I don’t have the capacity. So my diagnosis was, obviously, the health percussions of that, but it was this big universal sign in my life that if I don’t do this at my core, my family is going to struggle. And what I mean by that is I am the keystone of the family. I am the ecosystem. I am the environment creator, and from that moment on, and that’s why my book is titled Dying To Be A Good Mother. It’s a prescriptive memoir about my story. But it’s not about cancer, it’s about how we are dying as women, mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, to be good for other people when the secret that we’re all seeking is right in front of us. And so from that moment, I was like, okay, here is the symptom of your life, right? Like parenting is stressing you out, money is stressing you out, your career stressing you out like whatever the bucket is, the symptom, the uncertainty, but at the core, the foundation, we have to say, how do I want to feel? And we have to learn to value ourselves. And so in that uncertainty, I realized I was thriving in some areas of my life because I was invested in them previous to my diagnosis. But everything that was in a survival state crashed and became a crisis. And so from that, I realized like, you know, then 2020, happened after that, and when you are being proactive in your life instead of reactive, when uncertainty does happen, it doesn’t take you out, because, metaphorically, your cup is overflowing, so it will knock you down, but it will not take you out, and you become the type of person that can handle uncertainty from a stronger place, rather than just feeling chronically depleted and then being taken out, kind of by that by that Storm, by that wave. So we’ll start there.

Debbie Reber  

So good. I have a bunch of notes, and I’m trying to figure out where do I go next. I actually want to share a quote that I saw on social media. My friend Patty Digh shared this yesterday. She lives in Asheville, North Carolina, so she’s been dealing with the aftermath of the flooding and the hurricanes she’s probably imagined in her mid 60s. If you don’t mind, I want to share it. I’ve made a slide for it because it’s lengthy, but I’d love to it just really spoke to me as like, I want to discuss this with you in our conversation. Let’s see if I can get this to look decent, and then I’ll read it as well. Make it big.

All right, so, so she’s been posting a lot about the recovery from the hurricane, but she said I was thinking yesterday afternoon that I must have gotten a lot less resilient in the past few years, and I was about to feel sorry about that and a bit panicked by it. But in fact, when I stopped to explore that belief, I don’t think that’s it. Perhaps I’ve simply realized in the past few years that resilience is a trauma response that pushes feeling to the side, effectively numbing me to what’s really going on. We get better at difficult situations, until we declare that there’s nothing we can’t handle, and we live for decades believing that, and then we get very tired. This is a response I’m increasingly less willing to have or embrace as I get older, advisor, but when you’ve built an identity around the capable, unflappable one, feeling road weary is a shock and feels at first like failure. I’m here to tell you there’s no shame in saying I’m feeling tired, worn out by a litany of things that all seem to be going wrong at the same time. That’s honest, that’s living life as it really, as it is really. Happening for you, not as a super woman. So I read that, and I was like, I just felt that so strongly. So I just wanted to read that and see what kind of came up for you. If that resonated with you.

Heather Chauvin  

So a few things came up. Number one is, I attract a lot of quote, unquote, strong women, and I’m using air quotes because they are labeled as the responsible one. They’re labeled as the leaders. They’re labeled as, you know, the go to for so many people. And it’s often you can ask for help, but it’s sometimes hard to receive the help, not because you, yes, you may have a hard time receiving but it’s just that disappointment of not receiving it at the same level that you give it and really wanting somebody to advocate for You. And so what I’ve learned over the years is, who do I, who do I want as a support around me, and who do I need to become to hold the space for those types of people? Because that’s just who I typically work with. They got children with big things going on, and advocacy can be exhausting. The other thing is that it’s okay to be tired. I think in this wellness space, there’s a lot of tools. And you know, everyone’s asking for quick tips and strategies on how to fix XYZ. And you know, we need to be fatigued. We need to be in seasons of recovery. And it’s also okay to go, why am I tired? Right? Like, what am I holding on to? And it could just be a crisis. And you’re like, This is exhausting, and it’s going to take me a while to get out of it. And there’s so much shame and being like, I’m exhausted, I can’t hold this anymore. 

And when things happen to us like, like a natural disaster and you had no control over that, or or a health crisis, or, you know, a loss, or something like that, our first reaction is typically like, who does everyone need me to be and we’re, we’re hanging on for dear life, and it’s gonna, it’s gonna catch up to you regardless. Um, there was something else in there, and my thought was there, and then it left. Oh, this is also a reminder to me as to when things are going well in your life. What typically people do is want to slow down when things are going well. And I don’t mean slow down as in, like, stop and smell the roses. You can do that. I’m all about tiny pushes when things are going good. I like to ask myself, How good can they get, or how good can I stand it? Because when things are going well, we don’t tend to lean into How good can it get? Because we’re like, this is good, this is good. And we’re fatigued because we haven’t been taking care of ourselves when things are going well. And so it’s a perfect example, and that’s what cancer taught me. Like shits gonna hit the fan. Eventually it’s gonna happen. That’s how nature works. So are your financial resources in place? Are you resourced with time and energy and financial resource so that if things do happen, you’re like, I’m tired and I get I have the privilege of taking a break, because there oftentimes, I mean, there’s so much guilt around privilege, but you can give to others as well, but it is that example of like, you know, my financial house was not in order when I was diagnosed, and I had to, I had to work from my hospital bed, and I didn’t have the privilege not to. And so in hindsight, if I was set up differently, I would have been able to take a break. I would have been able to focus on my healing, same with our children, right? Like, things happen and we’re like, oh shit. I wasn’t. I wasn’t prepared for that. And so how are we taking, what are we learning from these situations, and then planning for the future? And some people don’t want to focus on the negative. They’re like, Oh, I just want to live a good life. And I’m like, we. Can I? Can we? You know, I manage my energy and my time very differently now in my to do list than I did, like pre cancer, and we can go into that if you want.

Debbie Reber  

Thank you. Um, yeah, I don’t know if I can articulate this question well, but I will try and just a reminder, if you’re on the call, if things are coming up for you that you would like Heather to speak to. Yeah. Let us know I was just thinking, you know, what you said about, about the fatigue, and I was thinking and this idea of, like, shame around things, and I I had, you know, I always like to share way too much about my conversations with my therapist. So I’m doing that again, people just so, you know, but in my, in my session last week, we were discussing how I, you know, I am feeling. You know, I’m not. I’m going through lots of unexpected detours, nothing major, but just enough that they’re really throwing me off right now. And I like it, I have so many tools. I like I am, you know, there’s so but there’s so many things that I am resourced, and yet I still can’t help but feel like I’m failing. Like, what am I doing wrong? And so what I heard you say, and what I told my therapist is like, I’m just so tired. Like, that is the feeling that I have. And so what I’m hearing you say is part of it is just getting comfortable with the fatigue. It’s it’s it’s not judging that. It’s kind of honoring that season that we’re in. I thought of the book wintering when you were talking about that, so I don’t know any thoughts on that.

Heather Chauvin  

So I wrote down tired fatigue, and since my diagnosis, and Lindsay’s asking, and I can go into more detail into this, I kind of developed this process called energetic time management. I go into it in the book, and it’s reverse engineering how you want to feel. But since then, you know, I’ve dug deeper and deeper into this, because people are so obsessed about managing time and energy. You know, I think culturally, we’re taught, well, like, take care of your physical body, right? Like, move, exercise, drink your water, eat your vegetables, get some protein. But no one really, you know, mental and emotional, they can go hand in hand, and no one really talks about, like, spiritual energy. And so I was like, there’s four types of energy we have, our mental, physical like physical energy can be your physical body, but it can also be physical time, mental, physical, emotional and spiritual. And what I actually started doing, and you know, I’m telling you what I do on a good day, some days. For example, yesterday, Monday, I hosted women here. We had a retreat intensive, I felt so alive and energized. And I was just like, oh my gosh, this is the work I’m doing. These women are crying, having breakthroughs. They’re like, I feel lighter. I’m gonna go back into my life and I’m going to implement. And they have support while they’re implementing. And then they left around 9am and I went into my bed, and I was like, I’ll take a little break, right? I’ll just give myself permission to take a tiny little break. But I love my bed. And I’m like, I was, I did not get out of bed till five. And I was like, I’m not exhausted. What is this I had I had shit to do. I was like, mentally, okay, I’m gonna tidy up. I’m gonna do this. I’m gonna, like, I had a plan, and I’m watching myself going in this downward mental spiral of who I should be and what I should do. 

And I was like, Heather, take yourself off this mental hook of like, shame, of like, you’re not enough, or guilt, or whatever it is, and I’m and then I didn’t even eat the food that I was supposed to eat. I got in my car, drove 30 minutes in cottage country to get crappy food that I probably could have eaten in the fridge. And I was like, just be. Just be. This is what it is. Wash like, just watch the wave come over you start again tomorrow. So there’s no perfection here, but when I am leaning in, sometimes I just give myself I’m like, just let it go. I talk to my fatigue. I talk to it like it is a small child, a toddler trying to get my attention, or a hormonal teen, teenager nagging on me, going, pay attention to me, pay attention to me, and I will either sit with pen and paper, or I will just close my eyes and I will go fatigue. I ask two questions, fatigue, why are you here? Fatigue? What do you need from me to feel safe, to leave my body? And if I’m experiencing shame, if you are able to name it, I will do the same for shame. I’ll do the same for guilt. Or if you’re like, I don’t know, I just have this weird feeling and I cannot. Identify what it is. I go weird feeling. I pay attention to where it’s showing up in my body or like my being, and I ask it, I pay attention to it. I create intimacy with it. We crave connection, but we’re losing connection with ourselves. 

So I will ask it, what do you need from me to feel safe, to leave my body? And why are you here? And it will tell you, it will tell you, if you listen. But this is where self trust comes in. It may be said, because usually it’s a coping strategy. It’s a defense mechanism. It’s actually protecting part of you. Fatigue is actually sometimes fatigue. I remember when I started my business and I was so outside my comfort zone, fatigue was was a response, like, it was, like, a stress response, and it would, it would be, show up, and then I would write the email, and then I’m like, Okay, you can take a nap. Um, after, because fatigue is my drug of choice. Like, sleep is my drug of choice. I don’t like, I shrink, I don’t expand, and I would write the email that I was resistant to, and then my energy would come back. And so I started testing that with different areas of my life. So if you’re talking to the fatigue, you’re going, what do you need? Sometimes it’s not, quote, unquote rest. And so the energetic time management process is like, how are we balancing our mental, physical, emotional and spiritual energy? And spiritual energy, to me, is just desire. Like, what is it that you desire? What is it that you crave? But we’ve been taught to abandon these parts of ourselves, which is why we feel the way we do, or we’re experiencing life the way we are, and then we’re like, but I’m doing the things. I’m, you know, I’m doing the tools, I’m doing the things. But we’re, we’re not like, deeply connected to what does my being need, and then leading from that place. And so when we’re leading from that place, we’re given an invitation. Sometimes that invitation is not in alignment with what our body actually needs, or what our spirit needs, or what our mind needs. So I could go on and on. I’m sure there’s follow up questions

Debbie Reber  

so fascinating. First of all, I just started reading this book. No bad parts. Have you read this? Are you into internal family systems?

Heather Chauvin  

I’m into internal family systems. I have not read that book yet,

Debbie Reber  

Okay, it’s good, but it’s making me like you’re talking a lot about these different parts, and it’s really a helpful approach for me to be thinking about all of these different pieces of who I am, and they’re all playing a role, and not to be mad at them and understanding who is the one beat driving the shame and the, you know, the harsh judgment when I do feel fatigued. So I love these questions, why are you here? And what do you need so that you can leave? And I guess I actually want to know, like, what does that look like for you? Are you journaling? Are you, like, just quiet meditation, just like, very practical. I’m sure it’s different for everybody, but I’m, would you mind sharing what that looks like for you?

Heather Chauvin  

Yeah? And I think it’s different every time. And sometimes I’ll sit there and I’m like, Okay, let me journal to see if something comes out and I’m like, that doesn’t feel, you know, I can feel I’m like, resistant, or my body’s resistant to answering those questions. So I might go for a walk. I might talk to myself, like, send a voice memo, because I’m really, like, a verbal processor. I may, I may have to try multiple things, and then I kind of have to, like, I was like, Alright, I gained some momentum. I tried to get an answer. I didn’t really get an answer. And then it might take a few days, and then I’ll sit with that. And then I, you know, may, may implement some of my tools, or I might talk to a few people, and I’m like, huh, yeah, that landed. Or I got a little spark when you said that. So here’s the other thing. Let’s say I do. I ask those questions, fatigue. Why are you here? Fatigue? What do you need from me to feel safe, to leave my body? 

I ask the same questions for joy. I might go, joy, where are you? And I may feel I’m just going, like, full rogue. This is how my brain thinks. I may close my eyes and go, joy, where are you, and I may feel like one ounce of joy in my pinky toe, okay, like I might be like, where are you? Where are you? Like I’ve experienced you before. Where are you in my being? And then I just ask it, joy, what do you need to feel safe, to expand. So sometimes it’s we’re not always trying to, like, get rid of something, because I think our brain is so used to, like, what’s wrong with me, what’s wrong with the other person? What do I need to implement? To get rid of this. And sometimes I’m like, You know what? I’m kind of fatigued from trying to get rid of the crap that doesn’t work. I’m just going to accept that the fatigue might stick around for a while. Um, but like, how do I want to feel? Write that down. How do you want to feel? Because no one has ever told me they want to feel chronically fatigued. So I hear I want to feel energized. I want to feel alive. I want to feel okay, aliveness,. Where are you? What do you need to feel alive? Now that’s where the courage comes in, and I know what I need to feel alive. 

Sometimes I have to test things as well. The other thing I want to add is about identity and identity, and this is something I’m very this is, like, very fresh for me, because I just had this conversation with women on the weekend, and this one woman is, she’s like, in my thoughts, there’s rumination. Number one, I was like, you know, you haven’t tried much. You’ve talked, you’ve tried talk therapy, and you read all these books, but you haven’t tried many other things to help your mind, mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually, and the other things that you haven’t tried scare you, like, medication, right? Like, like getting your children diagnosed, but not looking in the mirror. And she’s like, I do the food. I do this. I do this. She’s labeling. She’s telling me all the whole list, and she’s fatigued. And I’m like, but I don’t think you’ve yet surrendered. And I asked her this question. I said, Can I be radically honest with you? She’s like, Yes, please. And I said, Do you know a version of yourself not like chronically ruminating? And she had to stop and think about that for a really long time. And I’m like, this is your identity. You don’t actually know who you are. Feeling calm and peaceful more often than not. I said, if you felt calm and peaceful today, would that feel scary to you? Would you feel safe? And she’s like, probably not, because I’m not used to that feeling. I’m used to rumination. I’m used to feeling scared all the time. 

And going back to my diagnosis, there was a moment where I was really trying to learn how to reverse engineer how I wanted to feel, and so I had all the tools. And remember, I had a decade of personal development under my belt, and I there was one night where my body and my mind were in a state of fight or flight, and I was like having a panic attack in the middle of the night. So what do we do when we have a panic attack, we go to the bathroom and shut the door so nobody can see us, because we don’t want to be a burden to other people with our feelings. So I go to the bathroom. I’m in the middle of treatment, my body, my mind, everything is just fight or flight, and I’m I’m panicking, but I’m telling myself a story. And the story is, what if I die? What if I die? And the story was almost like, I’m going to die. So rumination, these thoughts, mental right? Mental story. I’m like, I’m going to die, I’m going to die, I’m going to die, I’m going to die. So I’m like, this actually could be true. I’m in a situation where this could become my reality. So it felt really real. It’s not like when you’re having a catastrophizing thought and you’re just like, what if? And I’m like, is that true? No, it’s not true. But I’m like, this could actually be my reality. So in the moment, I’m like, Heather, you are resourced. Is this true? Like, are you dead yet? I’m like, no, okay, come back to the present moment, like, I’m alive. I’m alive, I’m here, I’m I’m physically alive. So I could self coach myself. 

Then I asked myself, How do you want to feel Heather, I’m like, Well, I don’t want to die. What’s the opposite of that? I want to feel alive. So I start going, I want to feel alive. I want to feel alive. I want to feel alive. And then I ask myself this question, what do I need to do to feel alive like right now? What would an alive person do like somebody who embodies the energy and the identity of like an alive person, like they feeling alive. Well, they probably wouldn’t stay in fetal position on the floor. They would feel their feelings, and they would get up and be like, take a shower like they would just try to crack it right? But beyond that, before I could get into the. Action mode. I had another fear based thought, which was, I have no idea how to feel alive, like my identity was not. I know what it feels like to feel alive. I know what it feels like to thrive. I did not have evidence or life experience, that I knew what that felt like. So the uncertainty of asking myself, What would an alive person do? Were so many unknowns, and that scared the shit out of me. So when I asked people, How do you want to feel? They could tell me, I want to feel alive. I want to feel energized. I want to feel abundant, great. You know that? You know that the courage part comes when you begin to, like, lean into and reach, to change your identity, to change your ecosystem, inside yourself, and then on the outside you, you start to see things. But I had to fight for it. And so the next day, I woke up and I was like, What wouldn’t a live person do today? And I’m like, she’s probably gonna get out of bed and take a shower, and that’s all I had the energy for. So I call it my 10 minute habit. And I’m like, I didn’t call it my 10 minute habit back then, but I’m like, Okay, 10 minutes. What is in alignment with being how you want to feel like? Take a shower. That’s all I had the capacity for. Next day, take a shower. Go sit on the porch. Next day, take a shower. Go sit on the porch. Put on a song that feels good and slowly, slowly, slowly, I started investing, investing my energy, time and mental energy, into how I wanted to feel. And I had to train my brain not to stay stuck in the past, but to focus on the future. And then I was like, and that’s what I had to do when I was in an very uncertain time, and that’s what I tried to do now.

Debbie Reber  

Wow. Thank you so much for sharing that. It’s, yeah, it’s just really powerful to hear what it actually looked like as you were in kind of the biggest detour that one could possibly imagine. So you guys, if there are things that are coming up for you, make sure to ask your questions in the chat or raise your hand and we can call on you. So I just love all the questions like, What is the opposite, you know, of this feeling in you? How, first of all, it was, as you’re sharing that it was incredible to know that even in that moment, you were able to ask yourself and to kind of know what you needed, even though you didn’t have you know you’d kind of you were applying these tools in a very difficult moment, so, but I imagine that everything you shared is is for those of us like our unexpected detour might be getting the call and saying your kid’s been your kid is no longer welcome at our school, or getting, You know, some having maybe it’s getting a new diagnosis. Maybe it is something, you know, within the family dynamic that’s going to impact kids. So is this the same kind of approach? What you would advise for anybody on this call this to really, like, lean into the surrendering piece, which, you know, we’ve talked a lot in this club about leaning into the discomfort, embracing the unexpected, getting outside your comfort zone. But surrender is such a hard thing to do, like even if we have all of the tools. So I don’t, I’m not sure if I’m. I’m having a hard time articulating myself. I’m sorry say I was gonna say.

Heather Chauvin

I know what you’re saying.

Debbie Reber  

Okay, please, yeah. So um, just in terms of applying this strategy for the big things that we are facing here? Yes.

Heather Chauvin  

So I wrote down red, green, yellow. And I know there’s other people who talk about these zones. The way that I see them is, let’s say you get a diagnosis or the school calls, you’re going to go into a red zone. Your red meaning your React. You’re going to react. A lot of people who are resourced, I’m using air quotes, who are into personal development, who want the best for themselves and their children. I see this a lot, where people kind of, like shame themselves, or Oh, I did not react. Well, it’s a you have to think of this as, like repetition, and you’re putting in the reps. So. So I’ve done this. I’ve done this, like raising boys, my team, getting diagnosis, getting the calls, disappointment, like rejection. And I go into my red zone and I react, and sometimes I say things that I I would not say in my green zone, like when things going well, I’m kind of embarrassed by my behavior or my reaction, and what I when I talk about red, green, yellow, it’s like, what is our green zone look like? 

And people will say, you know, either they don’t know what their green zone looks like, or they go from green to red, or their child goes from green to red. But there is such a thing as a yellow zone, and I think that’s just self awareness right before your reaction. Like, what does your body do? What does your mind do? You know? Like, after a while, I started to notice when I was getting calls from the school all the time and they were projecting their stuff onto me of like, who my child was, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, their expectations. You know what was going to happen? I knew I was going to go into my red zone, and I was going to tell myself stories, and I was going to get angry and frustrated, but I could see I was very clear on who I wanted to be and how I wanted to feel. So that question around how do you want to feel shows up in every area of your life. So number one, if you react, if you go into a shame spiral, if you shut down, if you begin to emotionally eat, if you like, yell at your kids, do whatever. Get in an argument with your partner, feel helpless, like that’s okay, it’s what you do before that. So we have to start living proactively instead of reactively. And you know, after a while when you keep getting those same phone calls and you’re like, I just gotta respond differently, like I gotta figure this shit out. What am I going to do? I kept asking myself, How do I want to feel? How do I want to feel? I want to feel connected. 

So I’m going to use I’m going to learn. I’m going to figure it out, even if I have to role play, to have a connected conversation with the administrator that’s giving me a call, or with the physician that is projecting something on me, and I’m just going to use communication that’s in alignment with how I would want to receive it, and then I have to continue to feel connected. And this is what I have noticed within myself. And what I tell people is, like, this whole leadership thing, life, you can that term like, or that quote, like, life happens to you, for you, blah, blah, blah, but I would go like, why is this happening again? What is the lesson here that I need to learn, and what is life like, challenging me to become? And I realized I was losing my power in certain places. And so a physician, I was giving my powers to physicians, or I was giving my powers to the school, or I was giving my power to other people on my team, or I was giving my power to my husband or my children, or like somebody else. I’m like, I’m not enough. I don’t know what I’m doing. And I realized over and over and over again, that I had to slowly take my power back. And what that meant is like to own my voice, to own my truth and to communicate it and not shrink. And I had to fight against my coping strategies, which were to shrink. And I’m like, there you go again. Heather, you’re shrinking. And I’m like, okay, so lean in and expand. And so I pay really, really close attention to those. This is why my podcast is called emotionally uncomfortable. I pay really close attention to like, what do I want to do right now? Like, what is my default mode? It’s to sleep. It’s to avoid responding to that email. It’s to avoid calling back to school. It’s to avoid so I’m like, okay, lean in. 10 minutes, 10 minutes, and then you can go do what you want to do, call the school back, like, lean in. Um, so is this answering your question? Debbie, yeah, it’s

Debbie Reber  

So good. I’m sorry. I’m racked by everything you’re saying. So I love the question, what is life challenging me to become? And as you were talking, you know, that idea of giving our power away, I had a question about boundaries. I think that that is, I don’t know, something in what you said really connected for me, that one of the biggest challenges for ourselves being able to navigate unexpected detours in ways that don’t feel incredibly disruptive or chaotic, is to not give our power away, is to kind of say in our truth, is to speak our truth. And so that’s just an interesting. Aspect of the scene that we haven’t really talked about, but it this throughout the month, but it makes so much sense, because I think a lot of us do tend to get small, right? We get triggered into our own fight or flight. It brings up our own insecurities, fear of being judged by others, fear of not being enough, whatever, those kind of deep rooted, kind of internal pain points are for us, when these unexpected detours happen, they get triggered.

Heather Chauvin  

This is my belief, especially when it comes to children. I mean, they’re so triggering, and part of the reason why they’re triggering is I believe they are calling us to heal parts of ourselves so we can lead and become when I became a mother at the age of 18, you know, I remember people telling me my life was over and that I was never going to amount to anything, and that Part of me that gets the little rebel in me that gets, like triggered. I’m so grateful for that part. It gets me in a lot of trouble, but it was in its strength. It was It pushed me. And I tell my son all the time I wouldn’t be who I am today without him, um, there was definitely a part where there was, like, co dependency, and I had to create a healthy interdependence with that. 

But now, when I’m being triggered in parenting, I’m like, Who am I being called to become? Who am I being called to become? Instead of having this like victim mentality around, like, why is this happening to me again? Why is this happening to my child? And you know, my boys have, I mean, they’ve challenged me at every aspect of my life. But like, you know my fear of being judged, like, oh, having a differently wired child, like, you stand out like a sore thumb, right? So you’re like, Oh, you don’t fit in. Like you’re triggering my other wounds, my not belonging, fear of judgment and and then just like, oh my gosh, my child is being judged at school or bullied, and now I have to see help my child see and accept themselves for who they are. But do I see and accept myself for who I am? You know, so everything that they’re triggering, I’m always like looking in the mirror saying, Do I feel in control of that area of my life? Have I resolved that within myself? And if the answer is no, I have to learn the skills first so that I can become the adult I desire my child to be, because I cannot control their behavior. I cannot control who they become. So as a coping strategy is a healthy coping strategy. I need to control my behavior so that way I have control over something I feel like every time I’m like, I went on a little tangent, but yes, let me know

Debbie Reber  

it’s good. No, it’s good. Yeah, I just wrote control in all capital letters because it’s a powerful driver. I want to read this comment that just popped up. Mary, this is so insightful and helpful. Relate very much to the shrinking response and thinking about how that comes up for me with advocacy for my child, I think for me, it’s right now working both on growth and accommodations. For accommodations. Right now I’m giving myself space to not know how to respond in the moment and follow up with a call or email after I’ve had time to think and process, even while I work to grow and how I respond in the moment. Yeah, that’s great, just giving yourself that grace. Oh, good Lindsay, I’m so glad that this is good timing for you and Daphne, I, too, am a massive avoider, so I felt very seen Heather when you when you mentioned avoiding responding to those emails or whatever it is. So before we wrap up, and if you have any last question for Heather, this is your opportunity. I don’t know how to even like sum this up. 

First of all, I just want to say I knew this was going to be such a powerful conversation. I really could. I think I kind of am losing my space in my notes, because I get I just want to listen to you, because you’re such a brilliant communicator, and you’ve clearly done so much work. And I just, I’m so grateful for the way that you support other women and for supporting our community. So thank you for that. In terms of, like, moving forward, so we’re going to be moving on to a different theme. And I and I really, I. I don’t want people to be like, Okay, we did the unexpectedly tourists. Let’s pivot. What are some kind of things, you know? What I wrote down are these questions like, would you recommend people right? Have kind of a list of questions at the ready, because I don’t want to forget to ask. Why are you here? I don’t want to forget to ask that this amazing question, Who am I being called to become like do when you’re working with women? How do you kind of encourage them to really build these habits? Because this is, this is deep work, this surrendering. It’s it doesn’t happen overnight.

Heather Chauvin  

Yeah, I always joke. I’m like, why can’t I just teach people like, How To Make Green smoothies, like, put these five ingredients in a blender and hit smooth. Like, you know, I don’t even know what you hit on a blender, but you get it power, um, because it is deep work. And, you know, leading children through, like guiding children through their life is deep work, if we, if we choose to see it that way. But so often we’re just living in certain parts of our brain and trying to check lists like boxes off, but when we just realize, okay, this is deep work. So it’s going to be emotionally uncomfortable. Um, I really the first thing I do with people is I have them do a Wouldn’t It Be Nice list? Um, wouldn’t it be nice if? And I’m not asking you, what do you want? Um, and when I’m talking to groups like parents, it’s so triggering, because they’re like, Heather, we’ve been taught like not to go there, because our needs don’t matter, because our children have such big needs, and so even just doing this list may be really uncomfortable for you, but I go. Wouldn’t it be nice if and just see what comes out? Put a five minute timer on? Wouldn’t it be nice if I had a glass of water, like something as simple? Wouldn’t it be nice if I didn’t have to worry about this? Wouldn’t it be nice if somebody else advocated just as much as I am? Wouldn’t it be nice if I felt supported? Wouldn’t it be nice if we could travel the world? Wouldn’t it be nice if blah, blah, blah, like, all the stuff down, some of it, you have to realize, oh, wow, look at the patterns on my list. It’s all about everybody else. 

There’s actually nothing for me here. It’s all about how everyone else needs to change. But keep going back and back and back, and we keep these lists, and sometimes it’s like, Wouldn’t it be nice if I didn’t have to work on Fridays or I could have free time? Blah, blah, blah, so you can start checking things off your list. But this is, these are desires, and if they’re in you, they’re for you. So I call this like, like data or breadcrumbs. These are little breadcrumbs trying to get your attention. But if you self abandon them, um, they’re not going you’re not going to get very far. And so you have to realize that if it’s in you, it’s for you, and you need to you need to hear yourself. You need to see yourself. I often, too, will ask people like, you could do a Wouldn’t It Be Nice list for any area of your life? I’m actually doing a team meeting and planning session later today, and I’ve asked everybody on the team. Like, wouldn’t it be nice if, and like, put it just for your your role, you know my husband and I, or I will, because I will lead, and I can’t make him do what you know he’s going to do or not do, but I will lead and be like, Wouldn’t it be nice if, and it’s just for our relationship, so it’s really helps you, be seen, be heard. I’ve had my kids do it as well, and it’s usually, you know, wouldn’t it be nice if you bought me this or this? And it was like, okay, you don’t get the assignment, but we’ll get there. 

And so the other thing I want to say about this list, and you can do it over and over again, I’ve been using this prompt for 10 years in different areas of my life. Pay attention to the core, desired feeling that you’re after. So wouldn’t it be nice if I didn’t hold if I wasn’t the only one who held the burden for XYZ? Okay, if you accomplish that, what do you think the feeling is that you’re after? It’s not the thing you want. It’s an actual feeling. You’re probably going to say, I feel lighter. I’d feel supported. So pay attention to your common feelings or desired feelings, and then that. You know, when I say, how do you want to feel? That is your roadmap. That’s your guide. So now I ask myself, okay, I want to feel lighter. How can I do this in alignment that allows me to feel lighter, because the contrast is always there. So I’m always going, how can I do that in a lighter way? How can I do that in a more connected way? Not check the box, check the box, check the box. Why do I feel chronically fatigued? Because I’m like, Okay, how can I get. Back more in alignment. So I feel out of alignment all the time, but I’m asking myself that question.

Debbie Reber  

That’s so good again. I feel super sane because I love to check things off of boxes, like I’m doing this, I’m doing this, I’m doing I do all the things, but I rarely ask this, these questions. So that’s wonderful. I would love it before we wrap up. Oh, definitely wanted to know the name of the old name of your podcast, or previous podcast. She said it was one of the first parenting podcasts you found that really related.

Heather Chauvin  

It was called, but I was in control, but I rebranded it to emotionally uncomfortable.

Debbie Reber  

And would you mind just letting you know I’ll have links inside the club when I share a recap of this conversation, but just let people know the different ways that they can connect with you and your work. Yes.

Heather Chauvin  

So I hang out a lot on my podcast. Emotionally uncomfortable. I talk a lot about relationships, whether it’s parenting or partnerships, and I’m all about attracting profit in your life, because since it started with parenting, you know, profit, to me, is time, energy and financial resource. It’s something that I’ve become very, very passionate about, because I believe when we’re well resourced, we have the capacity to advocate more. The fatigue is not so heavy. And check me out on Instagram at Heather Chauvin, C, H, A, u, v, I N, find me. Send me a message. Let me know what your biggest takeaway was from this conversation. And I think, Debbie, you probably have Heather chauvin.com, forward slash time, where I help people, kind of I show you the step by step on how to reverse engineer. So taking what we talked about today, there’s more tangibles, videos, workbooks that you can work through.

Debbie Reber  

So awesome. Thank you, Heather. You are such just You’re so inspiring and so many ways. And I just want to thank you again for everything you shared. This is such a generous conversation. I took a ton of notes, and I’m going to be thinking about this stuff for a long time. So thank you so much. And I want to thank everybody who was here today. And yeah, we can keep talking about this stuff on in the club platform as well.