The Evolution of “Whole Body Listening Larry” & Why it Matters, with Elizabeth Sautter

Debbie:

Hey Elizabeth, welcome to the podcast.

Elizabeth Sautter:

Thank you for having me, Debbie. I’m really excited to be here.

Debbie:

Well, I want to thank you for reaching out to me and kind of, you know, introducing me to this topic and sharing your story. I think it’s such an important conversation we’re going to have today and so relevant to the tilt revolution and to what we’re doing here in trying to change conversations around neurodivergence. So I would love it if you want to take as much time as you want to introduce yourself, tell us a bit about your story and I guess kind of really what brought us to this conversation today.

Elizabeth Sautter:

Yeah, thank you. I think your audience is open to this conversation because of all that you’ve shared over the years. And it’s just been wonderful following you and supporting neurodivergent, differently-wired kids. So my background as a professional, as a speech and language pathologist, I call myself more of a social-emotional coach because I’ve always been supporting autistic people. I have had a center in Oakland, California, any Bay area people out there, a multidisciplinary center of OT and speech and executive functioning, lots of groups. And it was super fun. I also grew up in a family of disabilities. My sister was developmentally delayed. I have a cousin with a son with autism and I too have dyslexia. My two boys with ADHD and other complex learning differences. So this is all just, you know, a life endeavor for me more than just a profession. But I became very passionate about supporting parents, especially when they were in our waiting rooms and then when I was a parent myself. And so I’m just grateful for you sharing this information with everybody in what I wanted to talk about was just how I have been really focused over the last few years longer learning about the neurodiversity movement and how I have been trained as a speech pathologist in the medical model of learning about deficits and disorders and fixing behaviors and challenges and really shifting to a more social model that’s more collective change, neurodiversity affirming and focuses on strengths, emphasizing acceptance and advocacy and inclusion is what the bottom line is here. And so that’s what the neurodiversity movement is about. And something that I’ve been involved with actually supported ableism. And I was shocked and appalled and it set me on a path of deep diving and like I said before, learning and unlearning so that I can be the compassionate therapist that I always have been, but in a more conscious neurodiversity affirming mindset way.

Debbie:

Yeah, so I’m so curious about, first of all, thank you for sharing that. I love that you’re just saying this is who I was and I had to really process that. And we’ll talk more about your journey. And I’m wondering, as you learned about the neurodiversity movement, could you take us a little bit inside your process of doing your own shift? I mean, I think we all do it. Like I had to do it too. I had to really confront a lot of my ideas that I had and maybe that I didn’t even know were there because I wasn’t working in this space. of thrust into this space because of who my child was. But what did that look like for you? I imagine it must have been uncomfortable.

Elizabeth Sautter:

Very uncomfortable. And, I had a lot of shame around what I was learning. You know, it all stemmed from I mean, I was always a compassionate therapist in, you know, not feeling comfortable with some of the models out there that are more behavioral discipline, behavior modification. And I worked alongside behavior specialists. But we did talk a lot about behavior as communication and the developmental model and always brought play into it and following a child’s lead. So that was also hard because I sort of had part of it all along, but I didn’t have the full picture until I created because the resources that I created that became so popular, the Whole Body Listening Larry resources, which then I can explain that story now or I can just say when I realized that something that I had put out there was actually supporting ableism. It just took me down like, what does this mean? What are they talking about? And so then I started listening to neurodivergent voices, autistic voices, podcasts like yours, and diving in and, you know, I, we tried to make changes, but just wasn’t enough. It was bringing my awareness and it took a while though. You know, there’s the stages of change where you’re unconscious. You don’t know what you don’t know then getting to the fourth stage of change where, you know, you’re consciously conscious, like you just know, you can’t think any differently. But I will never say that I’m that in the world of neurodiversity because there’s always things to learn as I’ve, you know, now know better and doing better, but still there’s probably things that I am blinded to. And so it’s just, it’s a, it’s a stage of change. And there’s a stage of grief too. I talk about in trainings that I do, Kubler-Ross’s stages of grief and change. And that was a part of my journey as well that I’m still on. And now I just feel really compelled to share so that other people can maybe question and get curious about their own mindsets.

Debbie:

Yeah, no, it’s a generous thing to do because it sparks curiosity, right? When we have these conversations, it really invites people to get curious about how do I really think about this? Or where did this come from? So I appreciate that. So you mentioned that you were involved in creating the highly popular whole body listening Larry books that have been used in schools and in, you know, in homes and with therapists and on and on. So would you tell us about that project? Maybe how it came about and just so listeners really understand what it is.

Elizabeth Sautter:

Absolutely. So in the world of social emotional learning, social emotional wellbeing, we try to break down a lot of abstract concepts. It’s helpful, right? It’s, you know, what does respect really mean and to make it, you know, able to understand what we’re talking about. And one of those concepts that we were trying to break down was listening, you know, what is really meant and, when, you know, how many times have we said, pay attention to me, listen to me. And so we were trying to get educators, facilitators, parents to stop saying those things and break down what we’re actually asking, which came into whole body listening. And originally it was developed by a speech language pathologist, Suzanne Truesdale, who asked a bunch of first graders, what is listening? And they said, sitting still, eyes looking, quiet mouth, body still, all the things. And so she ended up writing a paper on it back in 1990.

And it became very popular over the years. Other people adopted the heart in terms of caring about what the speaker was saying. And so we started using it in our center and the kids were, you know, they started to understand what we were talking about in these listening environments when we were saying, pay attention, listen to me. And Kristen Wilson, who’s the co-author of the two original books and the second book, along with McAlister Greiner Huynh, who’s a consultant. She’s the third author of the second book. Kristen Wilson came up with Whole Body Listening Larry on a stick to be teaching in a fun way. And the kids gravitated towards it. So my brains went to write, my gosh, we need to make a poster and a book. And so we did. And that’s how Whole Body Listening Larry, the poster, the original one, and the books were born. So the original Whole Body Listening Larry poster, I’m holding it up here. A lot of you are listening, but it’s Larry, large, you know, pointing to all the different body parts, eyes, looking, ears, ready to listen, mouth, quiet hands, feet, quiet body, faces, the speaker, brain thinking, heart caring. So we talked a lot about turning on and turning off these different body parts. And then, you know, it went and we have the whole body listening, Larry at home and school for parents and educators to use. And then it got really popular, kindergarten classes, like you mentioned, had the posters up and were using the books and whatnot. And we started hearing that people were saying that Larry was ableist. And I was, what is that? like, how is that? How could possibly anything like that be? And, you know, the first stage is like anger, defense, all the things.

And then, I started listening more and thinking about it. I’m like, you know, there’s some truth here. It doesn’t work for all people to do it that way, myself included, and my kids included and my clients. And so, so I actually, we wrote the second edition of the books and we changed the poster a little bit. And I wrote an article, it’s a tool, not a rule. And that wasn’t enough. And we kept hearing and hearing and I was like, okay, I really need to dive in deeper. And so that’s when we started really listening to a lot of podcasts. It was just constantly in my ears, talking to other colleagues and reading and interviewing some neurodivergent people. And then we actually, and I got to the point where I just couldn’t, I couldn’t have my name on the book, you know? And so we went to our publisher and ended up taking it down from the publisher and then revising it. Well, in the middle of that, we had a focus group highlighting autistic adults, you know, explaining how it was for them and really realizing that the challenge is, that when you’re talking about listening in the way that we were talking about it with whole body listening, it’s performative. It’s not about really focusing on the listener, it’s about focusing on the speaker. And it becomes compliance and conformity based on a norm majority model and creating a standard for maybe what we consider typical, what works for some people. 

I don’t think that type of listening probably works for the majority of people, but that’s where our mind goes in terms of creating some of these standards. And when we think about it, focusing on looking at the speaker and sitting still and mouth quiet can actually really hinder listening because you’re focused so much on pleasing people and performance and compliance. And then all you can focus on and the information is bottlenecked in the brain of just being able to focus on that versus being able to stand maybe and fidget or sit in, having different seating options that can help the body and the brain regulate and then open up that bottleneck for true engagement and processing. So that’s the journey of going down the unlearning and sort of thinking about this. Cause I, you know, I’ve always been focused on supporting regulation and executive functioning. So when I got that, it made full sense. And so then we created a new poster and the focus group, I was just thinking we were going to take it down and, you know, move on. But they said, no, we have to have something different. And that’s true because other people would still use it. And then they also said that it would be helpful to keep Larry because it’s in brand. And then they would, instead of saying like, no, if it’s I don’t know, something else. They would say, I got Larry, I’m good versus Larry, use that. Wait, he’s got, there’s something new and then help them. No pun intended, listen up. 

And so the new poster, which again, you can’t see, but this is the new poster, which has Larry in the middle and all the different body parts, the same ones that I mentioned before, but asking the main thing is whole body listening. How does your body help you listen? And at the bottom it says all brains and bodies listen and learn differently. It’s important to know what works for you. And so then with the body parts, it’s asking questions. My eyes helped me listen when dot dot dot, and my body helps me listen when my ears helped me listen when, and there’s an open section for then diving in deeper and we have lesson plans and things like that and blogs that we’ve written on how to support our listeners in building a toolbox for listening focused on regulation.

Debbie:

Hmm. That’s such a great story. And I’m wondering, you said when you started realizing, you know, I’m getting this feedback and, you know, at first you had this defensive reaction and then you started to kind of listen and you started talking with colleagues about it. The people in your professional circle who you were talking this over with, they kind of, did they get it right away as well? Like, I’m just kind of, you know, if we think about systemic change, right? I’m just wondering what that looked like within your own ecosystem or your own kind of professional circle.

Elizabeth Sautter:

Yeah, that’s a good question. And I will say it’s a spectrum and it still kind of is it’s moving more towards the spectrum of, know, now we can’t see it, you know, it’s like a big hill, kind of analogy, a mountain or whatever, and you don’t you can’t see around the other side. And now I can’t unsee it. But some people are still on their journey of traveling around the other side to see it. And and so I sought out consultants who I knew would be helpful. Becca Lory was a consultant of mine and McAlister Huynh, who is the neurodivergent teacher. And she’s actually an author of the second book and she helped with the posters. And we have a website now called Everyday Regulation. So she’s been a part of that writing blogs and such. So they were, you know, way far ahead of me and helped me see the other side. And there’s some people that are, you know, listening and supporting what I’m doing. And then there’s some people are like, I still find benefit in the old books and that’s hard for me to hear. But, you know, in the journey, I still am like, you know, I need to listen and be open to their perspective and then support as I can share information with them and inviting them to come to the workshops and blogs and, and places that I’ve listened and really had a change in my mindset. So it’s all different, I would say.

Debbie:

You talked about this as being performative, which totally resonated, you know, and even as you’re sharing, I still you know, my kid with pretty severe ADHD, I still have to, like have an internal dialogue when I’m sharing something important and I’m feeling as if I’m not being heard or seen or paid attention to. I have to remind myself constantly, actually, this is what paying attention looks like for my kid, right?

Elizabeth Sautter:

They know. And we have older kids, you and I have the same age, older kids with ADHD. But parents also too, thinking about younger kids, you know, like when a parent might say something like, listen up or pay attention to me and the kid grabs the matchbox cars and starts rolling them back and forth. Maybe get curious about that being a way to regulate themselves so that they can actually listen. And similar to in a classroom, the doodling or my son got sent to the office for eating chips in class. And then we had to get that accommodation put on his IEP for being able to have crunchy food, especially in the afternoons. I’m just like him in that way. And so just really being curious when you see some of these non looking straight at you and sitting still behaviors that might be actually helping them open up the bottleneck of its cognitive load, you know, theory of just being able to, if they’re focusing so much on that performative model, they can’t really truly listen. And I invite our audience right now, you know, as I look away, I’m looking outside right now away from the screen. And, you know, I have my swivel chair right now. I invite everybody to pause right now. Are you walking? You know, are you sipping your coffee? Like what, are you munching on something? Like how do we all listen? And it’s just such an important thing for us to be aware of ourselves so that we can get curious with our kids around us.

Debbie:

So I don’t know if I can form this question the way it’s kind of really messy in my brain right now, but just going back to as you were sharing what the goal of the original book was, and it took me back to when I was sending my kiddo to preschool. actually the first preschool lasted about two and a half weeks, and it was specifically because sitting crisscross applesauce during story time was like a non-starter for my kid. And anyway, I wrote about that in Differently Wired. I won’t go into that whole story. But it was clear to me that the priority was on compliance. It wasn’t about being a good listener. It was on compliant behavior and what does a good student look like or a well-behaved student look like. And I’m just wondering, the original book, what was the ultimate goal? Was it about being a good listener? Was it also kind of, I guess, integrated with this idea of here’s what being a good student looks like?

Elizabeth Sautter:

I don’t think it actually had anything to do with that. Our motive was to break down what the heck we were talking about and get people to stop saying, pay attention to me and listen to me. So it was just really like, there’s so many abstract concepts. What is friendship really? What is respect? All these things in the social world. And so what does that mean when we’re talking about it to kids? You go into the schools and you see like all the on the walls of elementary school, especially citizenship and, know, inclusion. What does that mean? So really just like chunking that out and breaking it up so that it makes sense. And there’s validity in that. Like, please tell me examples. What are you talking about here? You know, when you’re saying pay attention to me and listen to me, what are you asking me to do? So that was the intention. It wasn’t like we weren’t thinking that it was creating compliance or that it was really it was just we were breaking it down to say this is what we’re talking about here. And so that was the goal. And so that’s when it came turned around as it was ableist and we’re like, wait, aren’t we doing something that’s helpful? Like, you know, to make it so that we thought we were trying, like stop saying pay attention to me. That’s not helpful. That’s actually creating confusion and overwhelm. So we thought we were doing something helpful.

Debbie:

That makes so much sense. So I’d love if you could tell us a little bit more, you kind of went over some of the kind of key things in the poster, but tell us more about the Listen, Learn and Grow book, because I know you want to replace and you we want to encourage listeners to if you see the original book in classrooms or in places that there is a new book that we want to replace that one with. So tell us about that.

Elizabeth Sautter:

So we wanted to just do a similar format, Larry and some of the characters that were in the original book, Eric Hutchinson’s the illustrator, we got him to do it again, he’s amazing, and really go through the body parts, but in a different way. Really talking about curiosity and exploration of what works and help kids really engage in a different way to learning what works for each of their body parts. So the first one was really like, again, like telling and command and demand here I can read a little bit. So the beginning is just introducing whole body listening. And then in the home, the book at home, Larry’s sister Lucy is looking out the window when mom is talking in the kitchen. And Larry says to her, which by the way, everybody’s called Larry at the rule police, because he’s the one who breaks it all down but you’ll see here why. Sister Lucy Larry says, people don’t know you’re listening when you look at the skies. When you think about others, try to listen with your eyes. So instead of looking out the window, look at mom kind of thing. And in the new book, this is the same listen, learn and grow. The pages about the eyes are your eyes can help you listen by hunting for the clues that show you what you’re learning, where to go and what to do. Looking at the teacher can’t always make you understand. Your eyes can look in other places and still learn what was planned. So it just opens up a conversation for, you know, different like it goes through the ears and, you know, having background noise and humming and things like that. And let me just read one of the back pages of

So here’s one of the back pages to kind of sum it up. Your body helps you regulate to listen, learn and grow. And when you listen with your whole body, knowledge is what you sow. People learn differently. It’s surprising, but it’s true. With whole body listening, find out what works for you. So just really focusing on curiosity and exploring all of the different ways that your body can help you listen. McAlister, the consultant we worked with, was just really great in saying, don’t throw it out. There’s actually some good stuff here. We can just turn it around. And then we also hired a autistic illustrator to create a poster that matches or that shows all the different ways. And there’s so many more, but some examples of ways that listening can look. So like, chewing on something or closing your eyes or doodling so that these posters can be up for kids to remember that these are some ways that might help them listen and truly engage.

Debbie:

It is such a big reframe, right? And so I can, like, you’re showing me that poster, listeners will make sure that you can see an image of it on the show notes page, it will redirect you to where you can grab it. But it fills me with a sense of urgency because I feel like this is information everybody needs access to. Parents of younger kids need access to this because it isn’t the way we have been conditioned to think that listening looks, you know, and so it’s it and it can be so confronting, can make, you know, adults feel they’re being disrespected or all of those things. And so that but it’s so important. So I’m just wondering, what is the response been when you have been kind of out sharing this out in the world with all kinds of different readers and communities.

Elizabeth Sautter:

It’s been really good. I was nervous, you know, it’s a very kind of scary thing to do, vulnerable, you know, but that’s just how we roll and we weren’t going to do it any differently. So it’s important to share an evolution of something that you’re part of, even if it was, you you see things differently now. And that’s part of the story of again, too, like you can share with kids, like having a growth mindset and to be able to see things and do things differently and unlearn and adjust accordingly and explore what that feels like. And you know, I understand that teachers would say, this is too much, like, what am going to do with a whole bunch of kids standing and wiggling and swaying and whatnot? you know, it just, with the foundation of regulation, that’s how education and kids are going to absorb. you know, it’s a universal design too, that it does work for everybody. And if we can lay the foundation and come up with not only individual toolboxes for listening, but also group and classroom, because it doesn’t work to stand in front of your classmate or to throw the fidget around in the air. That becomes a toy, not a tool. And we’re still talking about that. That’s important. We have to take perspective and think about others. But it is more about advocacy and leaning in to help kids understand really their different learning styles and to create some, you know, neuro inclusivity so that we can really help to have true teachers what they want. I pause in my trainings, I ask them like, what is your true desire for listening? And, you know, it pauses them to think about, to understand, to get curious, to process, you know, so and that doesn’t have to do with compliance. So we have to be thinking about how we can really get to that true goal. And when you said like, I really appreciate you saying that, you know, this needs to get out there to everybody. It’s, know, it will, it just is a process. And so thank you for being part of that journey. And there’s things that we did, you know, I was a kid who didn’t have seatbelts, I was, know, on the floor of the of the wagon, you know, the wood paneled wagon in the way back. I know it was so cool. I had the ones that like had the flip up in the back, you know, and we would go crazy back there. My dad would pull over. That’s all another story and say, you know, stop, you know, sit down and pay attention and listen. probably said, but anyway, you know, and, you know, now we have we can’t even drive our car without the ding, ding, ding going off with our seatbelt.

Debbie:

You’re so lucky you had one of those stationwagons. I wanted one.

Elizabeth Sautter:

So imagine if you were in a classroom or a home and every time we said something that wasn’t neurodiversity affirming or something we had a ding, ding, ding. But hopefully soon it’ll get to be something that’s so easily understood that it just becomes second nature to think in this way. And we’re just in the beginning process, so it’ll take some time.

Debbie:

So the audience of the show is primarily parents. Again, we also have educators and therapists and other professionals. But for the parents who are listening, could you share a couple things even though they could be aware of or start thinking about it as a takeaway from this conversation, even when they get back from their walk listening to this or whenever they’re consuming this show.

Elizabeth Sautter:

I would say first pause and if there’s any sort of feeling of shame or overwhelm about learning new information, just know that that’s part of the process and just have compassion for yourself in being here and listening is the first step and just being curious. And then I would say the second step is probably just to observe your child in these listening environments, the dinner table or Other times where they’re engaging in conversation and just notice what they might be doing just naturally to help them engage and maybe explore some of that yourself. And then as they go down the path, definitely model, talk about what works for you and explore your own listening style. And then start to explore advocating. And if you maybe want to have a conversation with teachers about what you’re noticing that your child how they listen, because you are the expert of your child, what they might need to support their listening and true engagement in a classroom setting. notice maybe they have the whole body listening poster up and you can print out the new one and share it with your teachers. Actually, I partnered with the OT, Laura Pixel. What’s her last name? I’m blanking. Stars with a P. She and I came up with a letter  to write to, for parents to write to the teacher on explaining and what we’re talking about, yeah, and taking it down and whatnot. And so that can be a start too, to just engage in these conversations with curiosity and just, again, you can listen to podcasts too to learn more and just seek out neurodivergent voices to share information about their journey and potentially how you can learn from them to support your differently-wired child.

Debbie:

That’s great. And I’ll just say that modeling piece, especially because so many of us are neurodivergent ourselves raising these kids and many listeners are discovering their own neurodivergence because of who their kids are. So I think that modeling piece and kind of talking out loud about the discoveries we’re making about ourselves, like I’ve realized that I’m someone who needs to do X, Y, and Z in order to pay attention or I’m realizing. So just talking about this stuff out loud, I think can make all the difference in the world for our kids to really start to not only identify and understand that about themselves, but to have no shame around it. It’s just who they are, right?

Elizabeth Sautter:

Exactly. And that’s what the hope is, is that it becomes like, you know, buckling up in the car. There’s just, we just now, you know, on the stages of change, get to a place where it’s similar to having, you know, the ableist sidewalk without a ramp versus now, like that’s just unheard of.

Debbie:

Right. Yeah. So let listeners know the best places to learn more about your work and the series.

Elizabeth Sautter:

So the series and the resources are, and the blogs that we’ve written with Kristen Wilson and McAlister Huynh are on everydayregulation.com. And we’re not doing as much over there with social media and blogging. It was hard to manage both. So I’m doing a little bit more on elizabethsodder.com. And I’ve talked a lot about it on Instagram and leading up to the workshop that we just had on Empowering Listening and Learning, which is available on elizabethsautter.com. Those kind of two places, I want to confuse people, but it’s just, it’s hard to keep up with both. So, you know, everyday regulation has it, and so does elizabethsautter.com with a little bit more deeper dive.

Debbie:

Great. And listeners, just so you know, solder has two T’s in it, but I will have a link in the show notes pages for both of those resources. And actually, Elizabeth dropped a bunch of names during the conversation. And I always put all of the names or books or resources that were mentioned in the course of a conversation, you can always find them in the show notes page. I also just want to encourage you, if you’re listening to this, share it with somebody. This is important information that we want to get out. So you can even just text this up. If you’re listening to it on a phone, text the episode to somebody as soon as you’re done listening. So I invite you to do that too. So Elizabeth, thank you so much for again, reaching out to me and letting me know about this. It’s really important and I’m happy to be able to help kind of amplify this message.

Elizabeth Sautter:

I’m so grateful. Thank you for this conversation. I really appreciate it.