Dr. Amy Laurent on Shifting the Conversation from Emotional Regulation to Energy Regulation

Debbie:

Hey Amy, welcome back to the podcast.

Dr. Amy Laurent:

Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here.

Debbie:

I am excited to talk about your new manual, which when I saw that you and Jack did a special Facebook video with Mona, someone who we both love and adore, I was like, there was so much good in that post. I was like, I need to know more. I need to be a part of this. And I’m just so excited to dive into this. Let me back up for my listeners who don’t know what I’m talking about. When I heard that you published, it’s called ENERGY, the Framework, Tools, Strategies, and Logic to Support Regulation as this new manual. Yeah, I was just super excited and you talk about it as a pick your own adventure manual. can you kind of introduce this manual to us? Tell us a little bit about it. Maybe its origin story.

Dr. Amy Laurent:

Sure. So some of your listeners might be familiar with Jacquelyn’s and my work. We have a partnership called Autism Level Up and our entire partnership is dedicated to producing tools and resources that are really useful to individuals who need them. And so everything is informed by the neurodivergent community, often asked for by it, and then generated and field tested with it. And so for quite a while we’ve been providing tools around this concept of energy regulation, because we know that many neurodivergent, particularly autistic individuals, really struggle with this concept of emotional regulation and kind of emotional identification and trying to figure out if that’s a good fit for them or not. But they still have regulatory needs. And Jacqueline is one of those people. So my partner is one of those people. And she has significant regulatory needs. But when we started kind of going down the emotion regulation route for her, it was really evident.

I should back up and tell everybody that she is autistic in case people don’t know that about her. When we started going down the emotional regulation route, when she was in an autistic burnout, it became apparent really quickly that the tools and strategies that I had as an occupational therapist and a developmental psychologist that I had studied and developed weren’t the right fit for her. And so we kind of went back to the literature and looked at kind of this interplay between physiological arousal or energy and emotion. And when you look at the literature, it’s written about as really intertwined. So it was kind of this no-brainer that if we wanted to support people with regulation needs, but the emotion language was getting in the way, all we had to do was strip away that kind of social construction, that layer, and just focus on that physiological arousal or energy. so we started actually creating tools for her to be able to help her recover from the burnout super successful, then we started kind of like throwing them out to the community, making them more broadly available. They were wildly well received by a wide range of people with a wide range of profiles, know, people supporting very young individuals, but through adulthood, adults supporting themselves. And so as we developed the suite of tools, it just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And people kept asking us like, it’s great. It’s on your website. It’s free. But could you put it all in one place and really describe it for us?

Dr. Amy Laurent:

And so that’s what the manual is. It’s all the tools, all in one place with a lot of our thoughts around how we would frame their use and use for if somebody is doing it for themselves or they’re supporting maybe a student or their child. If they’re supporting someone who has a different communication profile, what considerations might be there? And so that’s kind of why it’s a choose your own adventure because you get into it you’re like, I want to know more about X, like let me go there versus I have to read the whole way through and hope they actually answer this question for me.

Debbie:

Yeah. And I just actually want listeners to know, I’ll have in the show notes that Amy and Jacqueline were on the show maybe a year and a half ago or something talking about autism level up. And we heard more about your story of how you two worked together and became collaborators in doing this kind of exploration together. So it’s a great episode. So definitely go back and listen to that. What struck me from that conversation that’s never left me is this idea of looking at energy versus emotions, because it’s all about emotional regulation, right? Even when we’re talking about co-regulation, we tend to be thinking about doing that from the lens of emotions, right? So I do think this is really revolutionary in the reframe, and it sounds like the response, at least from the autistic community, has been, yes, this is what we need.

Dr. Amy Laurent:

Yeah, and I mean, we’ve been really fortunate to be involved in like a wide range of projects now where people are, yes, using it with autistic individuals and other neurodivergent individuals, but also starting to use it in schools, like system wide and starting to kind of roll it out that way as an alternative to kind of traditional social emotional programs. Because one of the things that energy allows us to do, it allows us to strip away any positive or negative connotations and just focus on things like, where’s your energy now? And is it a match for the activity you’re in? So it’s not a good or a bad emotion. It’s do you have a match or not? Right. And if you have a match, great, we’ll work to maintain that. And if you don’t have a match, we need a tool or strategy. And that might be something that I’m going to support you with through co-regulation or mutual regulation or something you can do for yourself in terms of self-regulation. So it really kind of simplifies the field and also takes away any judgment. I mean, I know you, Debbie, you can see me right now. Like, you know my energy is high. Like I’m pretty amped up. This is a great fit of energy for me to be having a conversation. I am sure there are other podcast guests that you’ve had who are more in that settled and calm and you just feel like you’re having a nice cup of tea with them, right? And that’s the fit for them. And so they’re well regulated at settled and calm. And I’m telling you, I’m well regulated at Amped Up and Fidgety. That allows us for individualization and not trying to get everybody to like this one ready to learn state, which actually doesn’t work for the majority of the people in the class, especially if we’re talking about a classroom.

Debbie:

Absolutely. And just going back to something you said, as I was reading the manual, it occurred to me that there does feel like there is shame associated or kind of a negative vibe to struggling with emotional regulation. That feels like if you struggle with emotional regulation, then there’s something wrong or it’s a problem. Whereas, it doesn’t have that same feeling when you’re talking about energy regulation. It feels more matter of fact. It is what it is.

Dr. Amy Laurent:

Yeah, and I mean, I think that is one of the kind of things that people point out the most about it, that it just feels genuine and honest, and there’s no judgment in it. It’s just, we have a match or we don’t. And it also helps us avoid some of the pitfalls of more traditional social emotional programs where people think about like, happy is this gold standard. And when I think, I’m going to wax philosophical for a minute, like when I, when someone says, Amy, how do you feel? Like my go-to isn’t like happy, but that’s what we’re expecting our preschoolers to say at circle time. Right. My go-to is I’m all right. And all right is content and content probably means I have an energy match. Right. But there’s not, and it could be like, I’m fine, but a little negative or a little positive, but it doesn’t really matter. It’s whether I’ve got that match or not, right? And I think sometimes by our social emotional programs, like kind of pushing this ideal of happy, we’re pushing kids into this place of like, unrealistic, like nobody is genuinely happy all the time. I mean, happy is great. I have moments of happy, but like they stand out because they’re happy versus I’m content. I’m okay. I’m fine.

Debbie:

I remember learning that happiness is not a destination. It’s an emotion. It’s something that you feel. It’s a state. It’s not the goal. And that kind of shook my whole worldview because that’s what I thought I was working towards, you know? So let’s take a quick break now. And when we come back, I want to get into the energy meter, one of the kind of core tools in your manual. Okay, so you use an energy meter. I remember from, you know, the autism level up website before, I think we talked about in the last episode, but it’s such a fantastic tool. Can you explain what that meter is and how we can use it?

Dr. Amy Laurent:

Yeah, so the energy meter is kind of the basis of this framework that all the other tools are built around and all the other help tools actually help us use the meter more effectively too. So it’s kind of the symbiotic relationship, but basically the energy meter, it’s pretty simplistic. The base meter has six different levels and they really represent different physiological arousal or energy states. And they start at high, high energy. So maxed out and frenzied could be good, could be bad, doesn’t matter. It’s just high, high energy and goes the whole way to asleep, right? So there’s six states. And basically, if you’re using the meter, if you’re kind of in this process of supporting regulation, you’re either reflecting for yourself or the person that you’re supporting, where is this energy now? Where’s my energy now? Where’s the person’s energy I’m supporting? And then you look at the activity and say, what’s the right energy for this activity that’s going to support active engagement for this young person or for myself, what energy is needed. And if you say they line up, those arrows, because there’s two sides of the meter, right? They line up, then we’ve got a match and you’re well regulated. So I’ll go back to the example I used earlier. I told you I’m amped up in fidgety. I need to be amped up in fidgety to have a conversation about these kinds of things. I’ve got a match. So even though my energy is quite high, I’ve got a match. I’m well regulated. I can actively engage.

If I got on this morning and said, my gosh, I didn’t sleep last night. I am actually settled and calm, which for some people might be like, Ooh, that sounds good. If I’m settled and calm and I tell you to actively engage in this podcast interview, I need amped up and fidgety. I’m actually like three levels off the mark. And so I’m bordering on extreme dysregulation. What does that mean? It means I’m not going to be able to engage. I’m gonna need a tool or strategy to bring my energy level up so that I can participate. So that’s the basis of the meter. It’s just where is your energy now? What energy do you need? Do you have a match or not? And do you need to shift that six level meter? If you look in the manual, we have all sorts of iterations of it. Now we have ones that are 3D printed. We have ones that are just three levels. We have ones that only have pictures. We have some that have words. It’s whatever’s going to make it accessible to the individual and useful to them. While we often start with a six level meter to help people conceptually understand it, we’ll very quickly shift and change the structure of it to make sure that it’s accessible to whoever’s using it.

Debbie:

Yeah. I’m just going to let this plane fly by because depending on the way the wind’s blowing, it’s right over my office. OK, it’s good. skipping to kind of the end of the book, I have to say I got so much delight. Like I felt delight when I was looking through the appendix and I saw all the different ways that you present the energy meter. I thought it was so creative. You have a periodic table energy meter. Brilliant. You have a science experiment energy meter and you present them different visually, black and white color. Like I just loved that and appreciated it so much how you try to make this accessible to so many different kinds of brains. Can you talk a little bit more about that? You touched upon it, but I’d love to hear more about that process.

Dr. Amy Laurent:

Yeah, so we think about accessibility in a wide range of ways, right? So if we’re supporting somebody who might be pretty symbolic in their communication, we’re going to use objects. Like we have somebody who uses squishmallows. They have a cheetah and they have a koala. And if they’ve got the cheetah, you put your sneakers on and you run after them. If they’ve got the koala, you’re in for a snuggle sesh, right? So you can use objects based on communication. Or we might have words based or picture based. But then we also have the individualization of how it resonates for a person. So one of the things we’re super mindful of, and I’m laughing about the periodic table one because that’s Jacqueline’s, is the elements of explosivity. If you look at it, it fits her perfectly, fits her perfectly. But one of the things we’re really mindful of is that we’re introducing the concept of energy to somebody. We want to do it in a neutral and accessible way. So we’ll often use something like words if somebody is conversational or simple pictures or animals, something that resonates kind of with the population at large that most people have some knowledge of to introduce the concept. So let’s say we’re working in a preschool with a classroom of all preschoolers. We might have like a sleeping bear, a hound sniffing, and then what is our top one in that one? A buzzing bee, right? So these three like concepts that are universally understood in some way, and we’ll introduce it in that way. And what we find is that if we, if it’s introduced in an accessible way, both from kind of like a structure and a content, individuals start to make it their own. And that’s when the special interests start coming in. And we see people going, I want a Minecraft meter or I want a Sonic meter. And I want these quotes to go with it. And I saw that you had one that was the Mandalorian, but I don’t want this picture. I want this picture. And this quote needs to change this way. And when people start asking for those meters, we get so excited because we know that’s when it really resonates for them. And we’ve had people ask for all different things. We have one adult woman who has a Spotify playlist linked to hers. And it’s the beats per minute in the song that resonate with the different energies. I know it looks like really awesome, cool stuff. But we’re very cautious about introducing meters that have a special interest tied to them, because learning about energy, learning about regulation is work. Like it’s a new skill for many people. And we don’t want to corrupt the special interest with work. We bring the special interest when they tell us they want to do it. Right. And so that’s one thing. Like, so we put all those in there to give people ideas and examples. But we’re always very cautious about don’t come in with the, my gosh, I know they love SpongeBob. I found the SpongeBob meter.

Debbie:

Right. Makes so much sense. So interesting. And what you’re describing is really what I’m hearing is that it helps them really embody this. which is, you know, that can be a really hard concept for anybody to do, right, is to really embody what they’re experiencing and know what it feels like in their body. And I’m wondering how to help, how do you, how do you help people or how can parents who want to use the manual to support maybe their kids kind of figure out what they need? So the energy meter is like, this is what I need for this and here’s where I am and this mismatch. But how do people figure out what is their kind of best state for different circumstances?

Dr. Amy Laurent:

So it’s a really good question. And one of the things that we have, like the tool right behind the energy meter is called MyEnergy. And that’s the tool where we really spend some time with it and we really truly use it as a worksheet. It’s a discovery process and we have to be willing to get things wrong and edit and change and basically that worksheet allows us to work through whether you’re working with six levels or three levels or whatever the ability to identify kind of what other people see, hear and observe at the different energy levels. Like what’s somebody’s presentation when they’re in this energy level? How do we know? How do we know Amy is amped up in Vigiddy? Well, we hear all this inflection in her voice. And if we could see her, we would see her hands moving wildly, like, because she’s always talking with them. And she’s standing like and she’s rocking, right? Because that’s part of who I am. And so very physically active at this energy level, we would write that down, right? And then we would look for the places where that seems to be a good fit, you see me engaged when I’m at that energy level, right? And we start to make these notations. And that’s why we say it’s a working document. If it’s yourself, it’s easier to do. Like, it takes time and it takes reflection and you’re not gonna sit down and do it in one shot, but you can start to piece things together. I know this happens when I’m feeling sleepy and still. I know I feel this when my energy starts to go up. I know a single stream and flowing is nothing outside gets in. Like I’m just so, you know, tunnel vision. If you’re doing it for your child, which is the question that you asked, we say be a careful observer, be that detective and spend a lot of time really kind of watching and trying to figure it out and making edits and bounce your observations off of other trusted people in that child’s life. If you have them, like if you have a team of people around your young person that you trust, say, this is what I think I see at this level. What would you say? Right? Because we’re trying to build this picture and get it right and allow for differences that happen in different circumstances. So once you build that picture, then we can talk about goodness of fit and where it fits because we are again observing in that way. The other part that’s on that sheet, which would only be if the young person we’re supporting can reflect and give us information or we’re filling it out for ourselves is the what it feels like. And that one is really telling. Like if you’re supporting somebody who’s conversational, who can reflect on their experiences and tell you what energy feels like in their body.

It is eye-opening, illuminating, and so important for partners because we often say, and I don’t know if we said this when we met with you last, Debbie, but we’ll often say like, if we filled out my energy and I filled it out for Jacqueline and she filled it out for herself, the what others see here and observe probably would have had upwards of 95 % of overlap. And she’ll admit to that because I know her really, really well. But it wasn’t until I read the column of her describing what energy felt like in her body at each of those stages that I had a real appreciation for her experiences and how different they are from mine. And it has made me such a better, more responsive, more empathetic partner because now I kind of know what’s happening inside because outside. When her energy goes high, she gets a big smile on her face. I know she gets a big smile on her face, but I don’t understand the eruption that she’s experiencing with that smile until she tells me about it, right? So if you are filling it out for yourself and you can share it with trusted people, it miles and miles in terms of supporting co-regulation or mutual regulation, huge. Or if you have a young person you’re supporting and they’ll fill it out and share it with you, It will be such a valuable tool for you to have as a partner.

Debbie:

Yeah. Ooh, okay, I’m getting chills. I just find this conversation so interesting. I read through the book and I still want to reiterate that this idea like the single stream flowing, right? You read that on the energy chart and my first instinct was like, well, that’s where you want to be. You want to be in flow, right? That’s how I interpreted it. And I just really love this idea that none of this stuff is good or bad. It’s understanding what it is for the individual. And then, you know, I talk a lot here about becoming fluent in our kids and that does take a lot of observing and noticing, but this is next level what you’re talking about. And it’s exciting. Like I’m excited to really play with this. And I’m thinking about a time when my kiddo was, must’ve been six or seven. We were in the car on the ride home from OT. And it had been a very explosive, let’s say dynamic OT session. Ash said to me that his head felt bubbly. He’s like, have that bubbly head feeling. I remember like, wow, that is so interesting. He could name that, but I kind of took that like, okay, bubbly head, dysregulate. I just simplified it. I didn’t go further with it. So it just now I’m really kind of curious because it seems so exciting when you can really understand another person’s experience. Again, when we talk about nervous system platforms like Mona’s work and this is a whole next level of being able to show up for and support the people in our lives.

Dr. Amy Laurent:

Yeah, and like I said, it’s so, I mean, it is so just, the word that keeps coming back to me today is illuminating, but it’s just like, it’s groundbreaking in a relationship to have that kind of information about somebody, if that makes sense. It’s just, it’s extremely powerful. And we know we can’t have that for everybody if we’re supporting someone who’s not reflective and conversational in those ways. We’re not going to pretend we know what they’re feeling in their body. But if we have someone who can share that information, we absolutely want them to. And it helps us remember not to be biased by our own experiences. Like, even if we were talking about an emotion, not necessarily an energy state, but an emotion, like we all have our perception of what we think happy feels like in our body or sad feels like in our body. And people will talk about like a heaviness, but like for sad, but where I experience a heaviness might be really different from where you do, or maybe you don’t at all. Maybe something happens with your vision, right? So this ability to step away from our own bias of our own experience and just say, tell me what it is like for you, because I guarantee it’s not what it’s like for me.

Debbie:

The quote I had pulled out, you wrote in the how to guide for supporting others in doing this work. First, abandon all assumptions. And that is, it’s hard to do because it forces us to stop and think, reflect on ourselves and get curious, right? But that isn’t, you we’re moving so fast, we’re putting out fires, we’re trying to do all the things. It takes intention to do that. So let’s talk then a little bit about how to use this book. So it’s not, as you said, it is a choose your own adventure and it’s not a book you’re necessarily gonna sit down and read cover to cover. you really, I really appreciated that. You’re like, if you’re this person, go to this page. You really kind of set people off. So can you talk a little bit about how you structured it in that way? It felt to me as a writer, was like, whoa, this was a heavy lift to really map all of this out. Can you talk about that?

Dr. Amy Laurent:

Yeah, I’m really glad we did it this way, but you’re not wrong. It was a bit of a, like, moving puzzle. And then you’re like, I directed people to this thing. Does it actually exist? Like, or do I have to write that now? It was a real question a couple of times. So it’s designed to be useful. So it is this comprehensive suite of tools and somebody can absolutely pick it up and work through it in a way that makes sense to them. Like, okay, I basically understand this concept of energy. My energy would help me refine my use of the energy meter. I’m gonna go there next. All right, now that I’ve got that refined, I wanna jump over these parts and go, if I need a tool or strategy, how am I gonna determine what kind of tool or strategy I’m gonna use? Let me jump to this part of the book to start to figure out and individualize those things for myself. So there’s a way to systemically work through or systematically work through tools to get somebody to what they need to support themselves. And you can do that in a really comprehensive way, but we also designed parts of the book to be very much in the heat of the moment. If you’re in the moment, as you said, here I am, I’m trying to be a careful detective, I’m observing everything, but I’m also putting out fires while I’m doing it. What do I do?

We have a section right up front. Like if you’re currently dysregulated and in crisis, or you’re supporting somebody who’s dysregulated and in crisis, read this. Don’t even get into the rest of the book, just focus here. We also have a section that says, I’m really interested in all of this, but it looks too much and too overwhelming right now. Can you start me off at a base level? And we call it the E3L or the Energy Three Level System, which is just what’s the down and dirty? I think about it as Cliff Notes for somebody. And so there’s a way in there. But I will, I would be remiss if I didn’t say that in addition to all these practical ways of accessing the tools and how it’s written, we do have a research base written in throughout the book. It’s in an appendix. And there’s, there’s reference lists and things and they are all at the very end after everything because Jacqueline says nobody wants to read all those words and she said I could put them there but they had to be like away so people who really wanted them could find them but they didn’t get it in other people’s ways. You know, it’s really a wise decision because it doesn’t interrupt the flow. And as somebody who does want to dig deeper and understand the neuroscience or something, they can find the reference or the resource that they’re looking for. It’s all there. It just doesn’t get in the way of let me figure out how to practically use whatever aspect of this manual is going to work for me at this moment. You don’t have to weave through stuff.

Debbie:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But that appendix is very hardy. there’s a lot of information there and resources. And I do love a hardy appendix. So I appreciate that. Can you explain the concept of the person in context? I thought that was a really interesting idea that you shared.

Dr. Amy Laurent:

So that is perhaps one of our favorite tools, maybe Jacqueline’s favorite entirely, because what it does is it looks at a person and you build a profile for the person, again, without any judgment. And you’re looking across eight different dimensions. kind of physiological, interoceptive, sensory, communication, cognition, social, sensory, motor, and you’re building a profile and it’s just who this person is. How do they experience the world? Gather as much information as you can from the person or from that team of trusted people around that person who love and are careful observers of that person. Build that profile and then put that profile in different contexts, whether it’s an activity or environment. And what you’ll see is when that person is well engaged and they’re well regulated, you’ll see a lot of matches. The communication demands match up with their profile. The social aspects align with what they want in terms of social engagement. The sensory pieces are a good fit for how their, you know, maybe sensory sensitivities or hypersensitivities are. And you’ll see all these matches. But if you put that person’s profile in the context where you know your child is going to struggle a little bit, like you’re like, this is just a hard activity for them, or this is just a hard place. Let me take this person’s profile and put it in this environment and then look at that environment from the same different domains, right? Because that’s the idea. You build the profile for the person and then you build a profile for the environment and you look for matches and mismatches. And if you expect this regulation, what you’re going to see is where the mismatches are occurring. What’s brilliant about this tool is it allows us to make sure we get regulatory support right. Because it’s a match in social. I need to either empower the young person with some social ability, or more likely, I need to change something in the activity or environment, an accommodation or modification in the environment to accommodate that social difference. Because there’s no amount of sensory strategies that you can throw at a social mismatch. If it’s a social mismatch, the sensory at best is going to buffer it a little bit, but you’ve got to do something for social. And the thing that we are very clear, and Jacqueline always says very loudly when we’re talking about the person in context tool, is it reminds us that the person is at most one third of the equation.

So when we’re thinking about solutions, it’s not, ooh, automatically what skill or ability does this young person need to learn to be able to succeed in this environment? Is there something we can do in this activity or environment that’s gonna make it easier for them? That’s gonna lessen the burden? That’s gonna take the regulation burden off of them. She’s like, because what happens for people who have regulatory challenges, they wind up on regulation treadmills. They’re constantly, constantly trying to buffer against sources of dysregulation. And this tool gives us a way as partners to sit back and go, this mismatch is coming because of X. Maybe it’s a social understanding thing. Let’s do some peer education. That’s going to decrease the burden on the person and in decreasing that burden, decrease their dysregulation, right? So it’s an amazing tool and it’s actually one that is being kind of workshopped right now as an alternative diagnostic assessment, which is really cool. Yeah, we are working with an international group in, we’re in the US as well as another group, Scotland and Australia. It’s kind of this international crew kind of trying to figure out, can we take the person in context and this building of a profile and turn it into some sort of neurodivergent affirming assessment, which basically says, here’s how you experience the world.

Debbie:

Great. Wow, that’s exciting. Please, I’m going to be following your work and I’m going to stay posted on that. That’s very cool.

Dr. Amy Laurent:

We have all things crossed. You know, it’s hard to get all the time zones working on a meeting at one time, but we’re working towards it. Yeah.

Debbie:

Especially with Australia. Yeah. So, okay. First of all, I just want to say, I really want to applaud you and say bravo. And I wish Jacqueline could be here as well. Like, I just think this is groundbreaking. I think all the work that you do is, and this, I’m so excited about this. A little overwhelmed, I’m going to be honest. Like, not in a bad way, but I feel like they’re so, you know, as the parent of a of a complex human who struggles with regulation and energy regulation in so many environments. I want to support as best I can. And so I feel like I want to take a big step back and explore more deeply with my kiddo in mind. But is there anything before we say goodbye, like a last thought or something you’re hoping for this manual to do in the world or something you want our listeners to take away?

Dr. Amy Laurent:

I think Jacquelyn and I are just both really excited to be able to offer an alternative and an alternative that doesn’t have any judgment or shame inherent in it and allows people to explore regulation in ways that are kind of authentic and validating and that’s what we want. Do we think it’s a great fit for most people? Of course we do, we wrote it. But more than anything, we want it to exist because we know there’s a need. And will it be the answer for everybody? No. But is it a good place to start for many? Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, we just got a review from somebody and they were or they just had received their manual and they’re like, it’s colossal. And I was like, that’s such a good word for it. Because they’re like, but they talked about it kind of colossal in size because it’s massive but also like a colossal shift. And I think if anyone looks at the book and looks at the reviews, it’s done by a wide range of people with a wide range of backgrounds, but everybody on the back is autistic or neurodivergent in some way. And just the way this work resonates with them and the ways that they want to be supported, we know we’ve hit on something that’s been needed.

Debbie:

Yeah, yeah, so exciting. Well, thank you. Thank you so much for coming by and sharing all of this today. Such an interesting conversation. I know it will be so helpful to my audience. And where can people learn more about your work and get the book?

Dr. Amy Laurent:

Yeah, thank you. And thank you for having me. It’s so exciting to have a chance to talk to you again and your enthusiasm is infectious. So yay, hooray. So we have a website, autismlevelup.com. And that’s where you can find Jacqueline’s and my work in general, like where podcast episodes are stored and links to things, as well as articles that we’ve written and all of our freely downloadable resources. There are about 90 that are on there right now. We have another one in the works coming up. But you would also find the link to the store, which is store-autismlevelup.com. But you can get there very easily from autismlevelup.com. Just click on the link for the manual. It’ll take you to the store. If you are international, we have a distributor in Canada now. We have one in Ireland who’s handling the UK and Europe and one in Australia. Because we wanted to make it accessible and shipping this beast from the United States was not accessible for people.

Debbie:

Yeah, yeah, I’m sure. Okay, awesome. So listeners, I will put links in the show notes pages. Definitely check this out. It is a wonderful resource. And thank you again, Amy. So great to have this conversation with you.

Dr. Amy Laurent:

Thank you for having me.