Bonus Conversation with Phyllis Fagell on Identity & Belonging

Debbie:  

Well, let’s dive in. I’m gonna spotlight you if you don’t mind. Okay. All right. And so Okay, so the theme this month, just so you know, we do a theme every month in the club. And we’ve been exploring identity and belonging. And so when I started, you know, developing this theme, you were the person who came to mind instantly, because I just I hear the word belonging in your voice so often, because I know, these are such important concepts to you. So could we kind of talk about identity first, just to get your, what you think of when you think of identity in kids? What does that mean to you?

Phyllis Fagell:  

You know, I think in the cultural narrative, when people hear identity, they go straight to things like race or religion or sexual identity. And maybe if they’re thinking a bit more expansively, they would add in things like having a learning challenge or a physical disability. But one of the things that really stands out for me when we’re thinking about identity is that for kids in this age group, meaning essentially all tweens and teens, starting really, in third grade, when I talk about identity, the challenge is anything that makes a kid feel different. And that can be such a broader range of categories than what I just listed. It can extend to things like socio economics, it can extend to things like having a family that is more religious and doesn’t let you go on sleepovers. It can be that you’re not athletic, and you’re in a community where athletics are prized above all else. And so I think, when we are sort of figuring out what identity means it’s what it means in the eyes of the kid that we have in front of us.

Debbie:  

That’s so interesting. And we looked at it through some of those lenses, but that I love that expanded definition and use it as early as third grade. So is this something that kids are kind of wired to always be doing this work it well, no matter how they’re wired? Is it kind of part of their development process?

Phyllis Fagell:  

Yeah, you know, I think when in the school setting, especially, you know, in a K eight, and now I’m in a three through 12, what I’ve always noticed is that it’s about third grade when kids stop being willing to make mistakes publicly, or when kids start being much more self conscious about not knowing something, the answer to something or worrying about whether or not they are part of a specific clique, or are accepted by their peers. And if it gets to a question on a test or a worksheet that they don’t know the answer, they’re more likely to suddenly stop and freeze and be unable to continue. Until I think that developmental awareness of how you stack up to others, is suddenly present in about third grade. And when you get to see kids who are a little older, maybe they’re hitting the middle school years, they’re starting to have hormones and more emotional highs and lows. All of that only exacerbates that desire to fit and which, by the way is totally different than belonging. As I’ve been going to schools recently, so many parents have been asking me why their daughter’s want to buy like $200 skin creams for 65 year old women to combat wrinkles. Not only do they not need, but might be giving them a rash when they try to use them, or why their kid wants the $45, Stanley flask. And that’s fitting in that is kids, they want to belong, that’s what they actually are craving. But the way it manifests with kids is that they will do whatever they can to fit in and kind of control the buying things or having the same brand of jacket. That’s the low hanging fruit. And understanding that it comes from a much deeper need, I think is helpful when we’re working with kids.

Debbie:  

That’s, that’s interesting. And I have to say, I just really learned like research. What is this Stanley mug or Stanley Cup? I just like what I see it.

Phyllis Fagell:  

It says massive water bottle with a straw through the top in the middle. That if you want to learn more about it, I think the funniest way to learn about it is through a Saturday Night Live skit from, it’s worth looking it up. Because I still can’t figure out what makes this cup special. It makes it has it’s been shown to have like chemicals that are cancer causing. I mean, there’s a lot of things wrong with this cup. But the primary attraction to for kids is that other kids habit. Yeah.

Debbie:  

Interesting. Okay, thank you a little side note there. So let’s talk about identity, or, excuse me, belonging, then, so separate from identity. So kind of in the way you just gave us like a broad overview of identity, what, what would you say about belonging. 

Phyllis Fagell:  

You know, belonging is the difference between if you can, if you picture, let’s say two kids, they’re both have a friend group, and seem to have plenty of people to hang out with and maybe do things with. But when you pay attention to how your child is interacting with those friends, when you belong, your child is themselves. They are goofy, if that’s how they are, they’re willing to share, you know, eccentric interests, if they have them, they’re willing to make a joke, even if it might fall flat. For the kid who doesn’t have that sense of belonging, you can see that they’re trying really, really hard to stay on the periphery of a group that may or may not be that inclined to have them there. They’re almost fighting for their spot in that group. And it’s a lot of effort. And there’s probably more emotional ups and downs at home or frenemies, fairweather friends. And one thing I always tell kids is that the research shows that the biggest difference in terms of well, emotional well being is between zero and one friend. After that it’s not about number, it’s about the quality of those friendships. And belonging comes from being around people who care about you respect you want the best for you, will cheer you up when you feel down can understand you and never make you feel less than. And that’s a harder thing to achieve, especially at an age when kids so badly want to be popular or may want to fit in with a particular crowd in which everyone else is also kind of jockeying for position.

Debbie:  

Yeah, okay, that’s super helpful. I just want to jump on real quickly, too, because I know we’ve had some new people join us since we started. So the chat is open. If you want to share in there, make sure you said it to everyone, if you want everyone to see it. Or if you just have a question for me. I can read it anonymously. But please feel free to share any thoughts that come up questions on your mind. I’m trying to decide where I want to go because I have so many questions, but I’m gonna just dive right into one of the big issues for our community that’s come up in conversation is the struggle for belonging for some neurodivergent kids, like the struggle is real. And there are a number of you know, of our kids in this group who haven’t really found, you know, what, what we might think is belonging yet they might not have that close friend, they might not really have that. And so there’s a lot of concern among parents if we’re if we’re not seeing belonging in that way, because we know and I would love to hear your thoughts on this too. Like it’s important. Belonging is a is an important thing. Could you speak to that?

Phyllis Fagell:

Yes. And I see that in a school setting to anybody who’s six out is different, particularly in those, you know, fifth through ninth grade years, is an easy target. And it’s something that as a school counselor, we’re constantly having to address because, especially for kids who may not be neurodivergent, but may be struggling in some other area, they tend to somehow identify and find a way to target those kids and early on Find ways, and it typically backfires. But in the meantime, it can do a lot of damage. And the kids who are being targeted are very aware that they are being mistreated. But they’re also less likely to ask for support, often we will find out that they are suffering because of other kids are treatment of them through another kid in the grade who tends to be kinder and more aware and who’s concerned about the situation. Or we might find out from a parent who saw that something happened online, or from a teacher who’s concerned that there’s a student who’s always by themselves, or who seems to be really struggling, maybe missing social cues or is, in other ways, drawing attention to themselves, that isn’t serving them and causing issues for them. So sometimes the kids who are neurodivergent will, it’s not that they want to fit in any less than anyone else. But sometimes that leads them to make choices that actually put them in the spotlight in a way that actually exacerbates what’s happening for them. So the first thing is making I think making the school aware that there’s something going on so that they can have their eyes and ears open, and jump in and address anything that’s going on, that’s unkind and set really clear parameters and make sure that I mean, all kids want to do the right thing, and be a good kid. And sometimes all you have to do is call them out for being unkind, it doesn’t even have to go to that next level, there’s some shame that kicks in, you know, that’s the ideal that they feel bad and it stops. And then the other piece of it is working with the kid who’s targeted or who doesn’t have that sense of belonging, and is just maybe left alone and ignored, about what their goals are and what they want. And often I’ll have a kid tell me, especially kids who are neurodivergent, we’ll all hear one of a couple of different things I’ll hear, I just want to be by myself anyway, I’m happy just reading my book or talking to the teacher who is out at recess to, or I’m happy just going to the library and hanging out or, or, you know, finding a room where someone will leave them alone. And sometimes that’s true. And sometimes it’s that they are so uncomfortable in those situations, but they do deeply want to connect with other kids. So trying to figure out what’s getting in their way and what they want. And also balancing that with what you think they need. So you might have a kid who says I’m absolutely happy, completely isolating myself just sticking my nose in a book, only hanging out in the library by myself. But you know, all kids need to work on their social skills, regardless of what their baseline baseline level of social skills is. And so in those cases, especially if the school knows they can orchestrate situations that will help those students acquire the skills they need. And often, we can connect them with other kids who are having similar struggles. So I had this was in private practice, but I had a student who was hiding in a staff bathroom to avoid going out to recess her break. This was a ninth grader actually. And he just felt really, really awkward. And it felt like it wasn’t there. It was insurmountable the awkwardness he felt to go outside. And so what we ended up doing with him is starting with small exposures, we found another kid who also was kind of risk averse, also uneasy about going outside with big groups, and had the two of them play online chess in the library to start and just looking for ways to get them to the point where they’re more comfortable interacting with bigger groups, more comfortable interacting face to face and live conversation as opposed to through online chess. But perfect is the enemy of the good. So kind of meeting them where they are, and balancing again, those three things, what do they need? What do they want? And you know, what is getting in their way? And what can we do to structurally support them?

Debbie:  

Okay, that’s great. Thank you. And I, I want to kind of ask a question related to older kids where it can be a little harder to facilitate that. But Kathy, I saw just posted a question in here that I scanned. And I think Kathy that you summarized what I a question I was trying to jot down here. So I’m just gonna go ahead and read your question. So how do I know if my child feels a sense of belonging? When I look at him on the playground, I’m sensitive to the fact that he is not attached to a specific group of kids, he’s not ignored and the community is kind of in general, but I worry his relationships are not actual belonging. I can see the group of kids who are real friends, meaning my son doesn’t get invited to play dates, birthdays, etc. Can a child feel belonging without those kind of touch points? Are those external things that we might think belonging needs?

Phyllis Fagell:

How are how old is that child?

Debbie:  

11?

Phyllis Fagell:

Okay. So you know, there’s something you can look up. It’s a friendship, I think it’s called the friendship network quiz. And it was developed by Professor at Dartmouth College. And I love it as a conversation starter. It’s very short. And the premise behind it is that there are two kinds of friends that kids need. They need people that they can confide in and trust. And they need people that they can do things with. And those kids may not be the same. It could be that there’s somebody who they would go to if there was a problem they wanted to resolve, and they trust them. And there could be somebody else that they would go bowling with who they don’t really have a trusting relationship with. So they don’t have to necessarily overlap. The quiz helps you and you can take it at the same time as them. And at the end, it tells you which kind of social network you have. And it’s divided into the kind of kids who only have those close friends, the kind of kids who have a bit of both the kind of kids who have people to do stuff with, but they don’t really have anyone that they can confide in. And because especially an 11 year old boy isn’t going to come home and say I am lonely. In fact, they may not even be able to identify that in themselves. That’s kind of a workaround to have a conversation that’s more concrete, about what supports they do have, what supports they might like to have if there’s anything missing. And as a related aside, I will say that when kids are not invited to things, that doesn’t mean other kids don’t like them. I know that sounds really strange. But often kids get into the habit of inviting the same kids. There are many, many, many kids who are inviting absolutely nobody. And there are parents who will tell me that if they want their child to have plans, they have to do the inviting every single time. And my response to that is well then keep inviting as long as your child is willing to have people over. Because if the kids are coming, they want to be there, everybody likes being invited, they won’t come if they don’t want to be hanging out with your child. And if you’re waiting for reciprocity, or if you are sort of being counting and expecting it to be even, it won’t do anything to help your child acquire the social skills they need. It won’t help them with that sense of belonging. And also, there really is no reciprocity. Right now all this is kind of post COVID. But all rules have sort of gone out the window, it feels to me or what I’m observing is that it’s the same couple of kids inviting people every single time. And the kids who have plans are either the ones whose parents are willing to do the inviting and the hosting, or the kids who have those solid friend groups, or maybe the families or friends. And so it’s just kind of happening, regardless of whether or not they are initiating it.

Debbie:  

Yeah, that brings up something that, you know, I’ve heard my kids say is, you know, often he will initiate reaching out to somebody else. And always it’s like, Why do I always have to be the one and so I, you know, will be like, Oh, have you connected with said you might want to reach out and you know, I try to but it can feel bad I think as a kid too, or a teenager, if you’re always the one reaching out and you feel like no one is doing that in response. 

Phyllis Fagell:

So there’s this is also for older teens. Something that I’ve been hearing more and more lately, is that when kids or teens are going to make plans, they’ll text, you know, their group of people. And they’ll say we should get together and the other kids are like, Yeah, we should do that for pink. So, for the kid who is saying that, Oh, so I was starting to say that some kids will be trying to make plans or they think they’re making plans, but they actually do not know how to seal the deal. And so if you’re observing this, you may actually especially if they’re saying nobody is making plans, ask them what’s happening, even look at their tax if they’re willing, and say, have you tried saying what time are we getting together? Where are we going? Or how are we getting there? Because those logistical pieces and that executive functioning part of it often is absent even in teens. And they do need that extra support. The other piece of this and this is the way to reframe it for the child who’s sensitive that nobody else is doing the inviting. And I say this as somebody who is the parent of three kids, none of whom particularly loved being the host. A lot of kids feel anxiety about being the person to invite other kids over and bearing the responsibility for making sure other people have a good time. So while it might feel personal, there’s about 1000. Other reasons, they don’t think their house is the right house for get togethers, or they have parents who they know are going to take away screens and their parents will think they’re loser, if they come in and their mom makes them take away the screens, there’s so many different reasons, and helping kids not personalize it, and reminding them that if they invite people and they come, they like you, they want to be there.

Debbie:  

Okay, that’s great. So I want to zoom out again, because we’ve been talking about fret about peers here, we’ve been talking about, you know, the other kids age, and you broke it down. I like that you’ve got the people to hang out with to do things with and then the people that that you can trust and confide in. So some of our kids don’t have those people, they just don’t, they don’t whether because of their being homeschooled or because of their neuro divergence in the spaces they hang out in makes that really impossible to find. So can that belonging happen with people who aren’t same age peers? Can it be a family member, kind of like a mentor? Can you talk about that?

Phyllis Fagell:

Yeah, you know, I think especially for kids who are still working on acquiring all of those social skills, their primary objective should be giving them opportunities to practice, it might be an adult, because adults are much more accepting starting around fifth grade, other kids are going to be a lot less accepting of those kinds of social idiosyncrasies. So kids are often drawn if they struggle to adults, who they know will not be unkind. But that’s still practice, that’s still practice making eye contact and, you know, having a strain of conversation and asking questions. If they are, draw, if they’re good, with younger kids, it can be younger kids, or neighbors, or cousins, siblings, anybody that they can practice with. And then this is an area that I feel pretty strongly about, because it’s not just neurodivergent kids is all kids are tremendously behind when it comes to some basic social skills, and also their confidence about using those social skills. So I see kids who I think are very objectively socially adept to also feel awkward, if it seems like everybody feels very awkward right now. And sometimes operationalizing, those social skills for kids gives them much more confidence. So in the school setting, I’ll teach kids how to give an authentic compliment, because nobody dislikes being complimented. But kids do not know intuitively what a compliment is. If you ask a student, what is a compliment, most of them are going to say something like, you know, it’s telling someone you like something about them, they’ll get that far. And I’ll say, give me an example. And they might say I like your hair cut, or I like your sweater. And so then I’ll talk to them, often as a group about what is the kind of compliment that feels more personal or feels more meaningful. And it’s usually when someone notices something about them, that is not totally obvious. You know, maybe they have a good sense of humor, or they tell funny jokes, or maybe they’re the best at making sure everybody gets, you know, turn in the Gaga pit, and keeps everybody making sure everyone’s fair, you know, it can be anything, but talking to them about how do you notice and recognize what other kids are doing? And then give that authentic compliment. It can get kids, especially middle schoolers who are so insecure, can get them so far in the likability department if they can figure out that skill, similarly, asking somebody a question. So kids who are neurodivergent, I’m thinking of one kid in particular, who was obsessed with sports statistics, they tend to be so in their head and thinking about whatever it is that they are focused on. I can remember one particular conversation where he had this kid had figured out how many how much this guy was getting paid every time he was up at bat, based on his entire career record. And it was actually kind of cool and fun statistics to share and interesting. Only he would bring it up or interject with these kinds of facts, no matter what other kids were talking about. So for a kid like that telling them, here’s what I want you to do. I want you to stand next to this group of people that you want to talk to, I can see that you’re trying to be part of that conversation. And I think it’s great that you have shared something because sometimes kids will say nothing at all and think they’re part of the conversation. But here’s what I want you to try see if you get a different kind of result, because I noticed they’re not engaging with you after you share that. So if they’re talking, let’s say about how hard the test was in history that day, what can you say at that moment, and you know, they might want to they might be inclined to say something like well, I didn’t think it was hard at all because they lack that ability to really put themselves in someone else’s shoes. So you might have to get really granular with them. And talk about what might feel like striking the right note in that conversation. And what I found is that when kids can operationalize it in that way, when they have almost set of instructions that they can carry it out with them, they’re more confident, and they give it a try. And they will, they tend to come back and report that it really helped. For kit i This is really outside the box. But I had one 8 grade girl who felt like she was so painfully shy, it was hard for her to talk to anybody. And we assigned her a wing girl to go out with her. And, you know, we did it confidentially, only the wing girl and this student knew about it. And it was with both of their agreement and violin. But the wing girl would find ways to bring that other girl into the conversation in a comfortable way.

Debbie:  

So fascinating. So I have a couple of questions that popped up in your answer. One is about masking. And how do we kind of inch you know, and it sounds like I imagined motivation is so important. So this eighth grade girl really wanted to connect but felt really limited by her ability or her skills or her anxiety. So that’s something we’re navigating we’ve talked a lot about this month, too, is like how do we help our kids so that they can show up authentically? And they’re not masking? Just to fit in? Yeah, because my thought is that that maybe wouldn’t facilitate true belonging. Right. And so, part two or the adjacent to that question is, I guess I just want to know your thoughts to like, can a neuro divergent kid find real belonging with a neurotypical person? Or just in your eyes? Just in your opinion, I think when I see the people that my kid has, has found that with it tends to be it’s always been an neurodivergent person. So anyway, I just threw a lot at you. And I just any, any thoughts that come up? 

Phyllis Fagell:

Yeah, I  mean, I think it’s possible, I think it’s much harder. You know, it because kids are just immediately drawn to people like them, it’s easier, they don’t have to work as hard. The research shows, though, and this is something I tell parents all the time of neurotypical kids, too, that the kids who are the most successful later on in high school and beyond are the floaters. The only way to be a floater, to be able to interact with lots of different groups is to be able to have conversations with people who are unlike you, too. I don’t like the concept of a best friend either. Because by definition, you’re not practicing social skills with people outside that person. So it’s possible. But it requires kind of a special kind of person. And it requires, if it’s real, true, authentic belonging, then there has to be an admission or lack of masking on the part of the child who isn’t neurotypical. And that I’ve seen it happen. I’m thinking of one specific example. And this was a girl who she, I actually wrote about her, but for a different reason. In middle school superpowers, she was a kid who only wanted to read on her own. And everybody thought she was angry all the time. And it was frustrating to her and they weren’t very kind. And she would say to me, I’m not angry. I’m either sad, or I’m sometimes frustrated, but it’s coming out differently than I intend for it to come out. And it was backfiring. Because when she would be belligerent or seem belligerent, it almost gave license to the other kids to you know, give it back to her. And it wasn’t working for her. And it wasn’t bringing out the best in the other kids. And I remember asking her what she wanted to do about it, you know, giving her some agency because I was ready to let the other kids have it. But I didn’t want to do that without having a conversation with her. And she said, I want to tell them about myself. I want to tell them that I’m autistic. And I said, Are you sure you want to have that conversation? These are kids who haven’t really earned your trust? And she said yes. And I said, Okay, do you want to Is there someone in particular you want to tell that to and she said, I want to tell the whole rate at once. And I was really worried granted, it was a small school. So the whole grade was about 50 kids, but still to do that in front of 50 kids. And I told her that I wanted to honor what she wanted to do that I wanted to talk to her first about what she plan to say. And I wanted to not only be there with her, but to have a couple of other teachers there too, so that if things went off the rails, we could rein it back in. And she got up there in front of that group. And she said, she told them all she said, I know you think I’m angry, and I’m not. I have a diagnosis. And this is what it is. And this is why I don’t appear like you. But I have the exact same feelings as all of you. And I want to fit in like all of you. And I want to have friends. And I don’t want anyone to be mean to me, I get sad, just like you. And you could have heard a pin drop in that room, I could see the dawning awareness on their faces. And afterwards, I said to her, somebody said, somebody raised their hand and said, Can I say something? And I was nervous. And I said, it’s up to her. It’s up to you to the girl who had been speaking, do you want people to have a chance to say something or ask you questions. And she said, Yes. And the first person that spoke said, I’m really sorry. And those kids were nice, not normally nice to her, I would say the vast majority of them were, were I would say polite and civil and non unkind for the rest of the year. But there are a couple of those kids who really went out of their way to be extra kind. And she mentioned one of them. So one of them was a girl who had been new to our school that year. And really kind girl, who, when this girl who would get angry or upset, probably frustrated and not angry, but it would appear angry, one of the things she would do is take her book and throw it out, whoever was she always had a book that she was reading, she would take her book and throw it up, whoever was being unkind. And this new student, every time she did that, would pick up the book and bring it back to her. And so the student would choose, she said, I’m talking to all of you except and pointed at the girl, she said, because whenever I get upset, and throw my book, you bring it back to me because you know that my books are my friends. And so that kid was always kind of hurt even beforehand. After that session, I think, especially having the example of that kind of kid who had done the right thing, and who was called out in a good way in front of everybody. I think they all wanted, I really do think they wanted to be that person. So that’s just an example of somebody who did the opposite of masking, and it worked really well for them.

Debbie:  

Thank you, that story just gave me chills. And I love hearing that so much. Sara said earlier in the chat, it would be great to teach neurotypical kids to socialize with neurodivergent kids too. So this was such a good example that it takes so much bravery. And you know, I’ll just share that in the GAP program that my kid is and I spoke with the program director a few weeks ago, and he was saying that you could draw a line down the middle of like the extrovert kids and the kids with social anxiety. And they had to really come together and have a conversation and the extrovert kids had no idea that they were excluding or like any the robot, we invite that like, they just had no idea what it actually meant, like meant to go through the world with anxiety.

Phyllis Fagell:

You know, that rings, so true to me. And actually, even mean outright meanness often isn’t intended to be mean. So I wrote about another kid in the book as well, who every time a kid who was on the awkward side, who happened to be neurodivergent to would come and sit near him, like at the next desk, he would move his desk away from him. And it was really hurtful to the neurodivergent kid. And when I spoke to him about it, he legitimately didn’t even realize he had been doing it. And once it was called to his attention, he stopped and went out of his way to be kind. And I think one of the things that we have to recognize is that these kids all want to fit in, they all want to belong. And sometimes kids who are perceived as different, they feel are a liability. And so we have to really name it and prove to them that that person isn’t a liability. And one way that I do this, and maybe they do something similar in your program, is I give kids a scenario like that might be I want you to imagine you’re playing sports and someone on the other team makes a derogatory comment about the identity of someone on your team, but no one does anything. And it’s so blatantly offensive, that you are sort of stunned, but nobody does anything helped me understand why. And kids will say all kinds of things. They’ll say, I don’t want to be targeted myself. I don’t want to be seen as soft. I don’t want to be a snitch I don’t want to get in the middle. I don’t want to be excluded. You know they have so many reasons that come down to fear and feeling worried that they will be sort of kicked out of the pack. So then what I do is I hand out cards, index cards or post it notes and I say sorry, I say without putting your her name on the note, I want you to write down what you would think about somebody who actually, hopefully that will stop. And then second, what you would think about someone who actually spoke up in that instance and said, That’s not okay. And when I collect them 95% of the responses are things like, I would think they were strong enough to do the right thing I would think they were, they’re a good person, I would think they have a good character. And so what we’re doing is proving to kids that they’re overestimating the social risk of doing the right thing. But we actually have to prove that to them, because there’s so much social risk involved, and befriending somebody who is different in some way. And we, as adults tend to under estimate how much social risk is perceived by kids, you know, we might say to our kid, why don’t you just invite them over? Or why don’t you just text them, not recognizing that for our kid, neurotypical or not? It is really, really hard to go out on a limb and invade someone over similarly, all academic risks or social risks, raising your hand in class, and maybe getting the wrong answer. That’s a social risks too. So scaffolding the risks proving that they’re overestimating that risk, talking to them about what kind of person they want to be. That’s the work that we have to be doing with the kids who are not being inclusive or not making sure everyone has that sense of belonging.

Debbie:  

Yeah, we need to clone you, and put you like, I just feel like so many schools and environments don’t, aren’t doing this work, right. And I, it, this is just again, my impression from people that I talk with, and in this space, that it’s kind of hard to, things can get out of control pretty quickly, and it can be hard to rein it back in, and to kind of reset that.

Phyllis Fagell:  

And it doesn’t always, you know, obviously, it doesn’t always work. And that’s when I feel pretty strongly that schools need to be holding the kids accountable for cruelty, and calling it out. And, you know, recognizing that when one person and this is another thing schools can do, actually, sometimes if there’s a problem in the class, like let’s say, kids are being rude to a teacher, and it’s the same two or three kids being rude to the teacher, what those two or three kids don’t realize is that or to another kid, with those two or three kids don’t realize is that everyone else in that class might be really upset, that someone’s being unkind, or somebody’s being rude. And they just don’t know what to do, or they don’t speak up. And so sometimes, if you can have a conversation with a class about again, and first putting forth an issue that okay, people are making fun of someone for getting the wrong answer, or for blurting out in class, you know, what are the what are you feeling, and maybe you do that anonymously, and having a conversation about that, kids realize that, oh, you know, maybe other people are judging me for doing that. And because there’s so much social risk involved, you have to do something like that anonymously, too. Sometimes I’ll have kids write it down on a sticky note they put on the wall, then I have everyone walk around and grab a sticky note with a comment that resonates for them that’s not their own, and then read it out loud, because you’ve stripped away all that social risk. But what they hear is that most people think it’s mean or rude, and they don’t like it. And because the kids with the social power, have all the power, you know that social capital gives them all the power, the only way to combat that is through numbers through the power of the group. And so finding ways to get the power of the group. And I think that to me is always reassuring as a parent, as you know, as someone who works with neurodivergent kids, I think it’s helpful to tell the kids to most people don’t like this. This is, you know, this person who’s being unkind is speaking for themselves, it might seem like they’re speaking for everyone, it might seem like everyone hates you, but this culture is being driven by that person. And we’re going to try to undo that.

Debbie:  

That’s great, thank you. I want to pivot and talk about identity a little bit more. So I mean, we could go in so many different directions to things and then you choose where you want to start. One of the things we’ve been talking about is how we can support our kids healthy identity development and their relationship with their neuro divergence as a piece of that. So that’s when you options pick it pick a pick a curtain so that one and then the other. The other thing I’d love to hear from you on is kids who I you know when these kids find each other and I did an episode with Devorah Heitner about this like kind of internet rabbit holes but finding you know craving identity or identifying with, with a being a depressed person with being an anxious person, you know, and then finding other people who kind of reinforce this identity, which as a parent isn’t what we would want to see our kids kind of grab on to.

Phyllis Fagell  

You know, I agree that kids are drawn to similarly impaired kids, whatever that impairment might be. And emotions are contagious, and you really are who you’re with. And so some of this is about developing some cognitive awareness of how you feel in different situations, and with different people and maybe making observations, you know, I’ve noticed you’re always yourself, when you’re with this particular person, when you’re with this other person, it seems like you have to try really hard. Or it seems like maybe you’re just over sharing, and then I can tell you feel kind of exposed, or you’re telling talking much faster than you normally do, maybe making some observations and then having a little bit of a conversation about what’s going on and why that’s happening. And helping them recognize that if they’re not comfortable, or if they’re acting in ways that don’t reflect how they are when they’re with their own family, or somebody who makes them feel like they can be exactly who they are. There’s something underneath that, and what is it underneath that? And how can they set themselves up for success? And so, if in that setting themselves up for success is such a big part of this, because kids, you know, it’s peer pressure is not peer pressure, it’s behavior contagion to, again, you are who you’re with. And so if you’re, if you talk to your kids about how they want to feel, but also how they want to show up in the world, and who brings that out in them. And who do they what conversations do, they always walk away from feeling like, you know, what, I don’t feel so great about how that went. Because the more time they spend with people who actually make them feel comfortable, and again, I don’t care who those people are, I don’t care if they’re same age, I don’t care if they’re neurotypical or neurodivergent, whoever those people are, that leave them feeling that way, we want to be bolstering their confidence. So there’s lots and lots of ways to bolster kids’ confidence, but the most basic is to spend time with people who affirm who you are, and who don’t degrade you in any way. So what when I have one girl, and this is a girl who’s struggling from an eating disorder that I’ve been working with, and she’s really susceptible to other people’s opinions, and she’s really drawn to other people who have eating disorders, even though it doesn’t really serve her recovery in any way. And so there were two strategies that we came up with, for her that I think apply here. One is to, and this is sort of derivative from Brene. Brown, but take an index card, and list you know, maybe like a one by one little card, and list four or five people who you know, love you, care about you, who you respect, whose opinions you value, who want the best for you. And if those people criticize you, or if those people exclude you, or give you feedback, good or bad, you know, you can take it to heart you can follow up, you can really give it some deep thought, if you’re criticized by somebody else, you know, that other seventh grader or 10th grader or whatever, who is like, why do you why do you have a tick? Or you know, why? Why do you always have to raise your hand first, whatever it is that they’re picking on you for, you don’t have to take it to heart, if they’re not on that list, we do not have the emotional bandwidth to be taking it all in. And conversely, for the people who you’re drawn to who you can tell you walk away, and it’s not serving you in some way. So for this girl, it would, you know, get her fixating on body image and food and things like that. You know, what safeguards do you have to put in place? And how can you create an environment that doesn’t make things socially uncomfortable for you, but that sets you up for emotional well being and so for this girl, she knows, she doesn’t make plans outside of school, but she’s always respectful and kind in school. If she is talking about food or weight loss, she changes the topic or simply says, you know, I’m, I’m working on those issues. And so I don’t, I’m not talking about food and diet right now. But setting some boundaries for herself, and trying to avoid those one on one encounters. So really, if there’s a kid who’s particularly unaccepting of your child and is particularly prone to saying really dumb mean things. How can you set yourself up for safety? How can you avoid them as much as possible? Do you need to tell a teacher you don’t want to sit next to them or be paired with them if you’re in the same class, but looking for the things in their control that they can that they can do to improve how they feel.

Debbie:  

I love what you share that you that exercise, you know, to take it to heart, like being able to say that yourself because I think, especially for kids who have more rejection sensitive, you know, dysphoria, or who really kind of perceive themselves as always being the outcast, to kind of really look at like, why do we give so many other people so much power over how we feel about ourselves, when really, they’re, they don’t really count, you know, that we shouldn’t be taking their input into consideration. There’s a question in here, my son recently said to me, my autism is what makes me special, I pause when he says this, because I think he believes autism is only positive, how do I explain the differences without shaming him, but also recognizing that the real world looks at him as different and not necessarily in a good way.

Phyllis Fagell:

So I mean, I guess I’m not sure that it’s necessary at this point, unless it’s getting in his way, having that positive self concept, to me is a positive. And at some point, the world is going to make it clear to him if it hasn’t yet, that there’s a downside as well. And at home to only have that kind of affirmation, and that positivity, I think, is very protective. Similarly, with LGBTQ kids, you know, the world can be really unkind. And you can’t shield them from all of that. But you can make it clear that you think they’re wonderful, and that you appreciate their idiosyncrasies, and you see all of the upside to the challenges, or to what you perceive may be perceived as challenges, it sounds like they don’t, but all of those positives, you know, seeing the world differently, maybe being more empathetic toward other people with challenges, all of those things are real positives. And I think it’s okay as the parent to continue to affirm that difference. And then even if you did prepare them for that cruelty that they might encounter, I’m not sure that it will make a difference in terms of how well they handle it later. What you can do is help them have some responses, if they ever do encounter unkindness, or somebody doesn’t affirm them, you know, giving, giving them things that they can say doesn’t even have to be specific to autism, it can be something else, when it comes up in some other context, when they are complaining about how someone treated them.

Debbie:  

That’s a great answer. Thank you. I just went back to chatting. And there’s a question when i Miss, do you have any specific advice for parents of kids who are not in the school system to make sure we’re fostering belonging beyond just kind of setting up socialization opportunities?

Phyllis Fagell:

Yeah, you know, I think, and I talk about this a lot in this super security chapter in middle school superpowers, I think there’s so much power in affirming their identity in whatever ways you can. So not just neuro divergence, but the history of their name, or their culture, like really making foods from whatever their background is, and helping them instill pride in lots of different aspects of their identity, so that they navigate the world feeling like they have that strong sense of self. I was really intrigued when I was researching the book about research showing that kids who have a real awareness and pride in their identity have a lower suicide rate. And they were talking about culture and religion and other things. So I think that family history, I think, sharing stories of oscillating journeys, that’s what the researcher, that was a term a researcher used to talk about sharing with your kids stories of family members who’ve had ups and downs. So it could be the great grandparent who came from another country, built a factory, but then the factory built down, burned down, and they had to start over, but they did. So really giving your kid a self identity, and a family history of resilience, and priming them to expect those ups and downs at their part of life, so that they’re able to navigate it. And so that they, once they do have, you know, work interactions, colleague interactions and more opportunities outside the home or outside whoever is in your family orbit, and neighborhood orbit to interact with, so that they go into those situations with a sense of confidence and a real strong sense of self. I think that can prime them to Yeah, navigate that.

Debbie:  

That’s great. Thank you. I want to talk and we’re just letting everybody know, we’re kind of coming towards the end of the hour. So if you have a last burning question, that would be the time. But I want to ask about how do you support or advise parents if their kids are who want to show up for their kids like healthy development, formation and journey and maybe there are aspects of that journey. You that aren’t in alignment with the parents or that the parents are struggling with whether it’s gender identity, sexual orientation, some aspects, some group that they are really resonating with, how do you advise parents to know? It’s,

Phyllis Fagell:

It’s hard. And I think it’s really important that parents have a forum to process whatever they’re experiencing and feeling because that’s all valid. And that might be a therapist, it could be a partner, it could be a friend, it could be a religious leader, the one thing you don’t want to do is bring that back to your child who probably also, in their own way, is struggling with whatever that identity piece might be for them. You know, I say this as a parent of a child who identifies as gay, when she first told me, I was really, really surprised, and I had to do my own processing, I had to really, you know, understand and figure out where she was coming from. And ultimately, for me, what I want most is for my child to be happy. And for her to have a healthy sense of self and for her to know she’s loved. And so any processing that I had to do, I didn’t do with her. And that, for me, was really important, because by the time I did kind of process it, it didn’t take too long, but by the time I processed it, and understood it and could show up, you know, authentically in the way that I wanted to show up for her, I was in a different place. And I think that was really important for my relationship with her. I also believe for any parent who’s struggling with any kind of misalignment between what you expected of your child and what you are, you know, what your who your child is, that in this is just a personal belief more than a research thing, I really believe for us to happiness is a choice, Misery is a choice. And if you make the decision that you don’t want to be, you know that you want to have that relationship with your child, and you don’t want to dwell in misery, it will actually help you, I don’t know if I’m even making sense, but it’s much easier to pull out and get some clarity on what it is you really, really want from that relationship and avoid doing things in the short run, that might have really long term repercussions for both them and your relationship with them. That at some later point, when maybe you feel more comfortable with those with that misalignment, you’ll wish you had handled it differently.

Debbie:  

Yeah, thank you for that. One last question that I’m going to ask and then we’ll wrap up unless there’s, again, a burning question, but I’ve given you the warning. I’m just thinking again, of the older kids. So there’s a number of parents in this community who have young adults who may, you know, maybe not be in school anymore. And so it’s harder to find those social connections. And maybe these are kids who really haven’t found their people yet who haven’t heard of that sense of connection. How can we, I guess, be a multipart, as always, how can we not freak out? Or like, let our own anxiety about our kids lack of social connection influence us? And then how can we support our child and or a young adult and find that? You know, I

Phyllis Fagell:

think the first thing is to make sure that what you think you’re seeing aligns with what they’re experiencing? And take that stance, you know, what asking your child you know, how are you doing? And do you feel like you have people that you can lean on when you are lonely? Or when you want to have plans to do something with? If they say no, then you can ask them if they’re open, you know, as young adults, you need permission to be able to support them, you can ask them if they’d like your support. And you can see if they’re open to having a conversation about that. Lots and lots of young adults are still working on social skills in therapy with people, you know, with therapists to try to bolster those skills. Everybody is behind. As I’ve said, a young adult is not really presenting even neurotypical young adults, a lot of them are having a lot of issues, launching and interacting and finding their place socially. So some of this is societal at the moment. But figuring out what they want, asking for permission to jump in and asking them how you can support them. And again, I just really believe in a strengths based approach, really helping them feel good about who they are and where they are. And having that sense of optimism, and lightening the mood at times and not interviewing for pain. You know, I would say that to a parent of a middle schooler or a parent of a young adult, trying to help them focus also on the things that are going well. And giving them that confidence that in time they will find their people it might just take a little bit longer.

Debbie:  

Or viewing her pain jumped out at me. And I was like, I know what that means. But I’ve never heard that before contagious.

Phyllis Fagell:

Yeah, they are digging for dirt mining for misery. Okay? It’s like when you say if let’s say you’ve got a teen and they come home and they tell you they had told you a teacher was mean to them, and then they come home the next day, and you say was that the first thing you say? Was that teacher mean to you again? Yeah, if you start from that negativity, or from that deficit stance, they’re gonna go right there with you, it’s going to actually change how they feel. Whereas if you can have just a neutral conversation and more expansive conversation, it’s not about pretending that stuff doesn’t exist, but just making sure that they are not over emphasizing the negative in their own life, which will impact their mood and their behavior and their ability to take social risks. A kid who is having trouble connecting is not going to have an easier time connecting, because somebody tells them that their social skills are really poor, right? Or they’re lacking in some way.

Debbie:  

Yeah, makes sense. The friendship network quiz, someone said they weren’t able to find that. So can you email me later. But I just want to make sure we get the resource to

Phyllis Fagell:

Yeah, I’m gonna, I’m gonna let me just tell you the name because then you know what I actually think they sent it to me as a, I will send it to Debbie, because I think they sent it to me is almost like a PDF. I’m not sure it’s searchable. Okay. Yeah. So

Debbie:  

I’ll post it with you guys. Phyllis, I know you have a very busy day. And I so appreciate you taking time. Any last words before we say goodbye?

Phyllis Fagell:  

Um, no, just enjoy your kids. And, you know, every I will say just as from my school counselor perspective, absolutely. Every child is weird, and different, and struggling. And no kid is happy all the time. And even the most, you know, seemingly happy popular kids have struggles too. And I just give you a lot of credit for being here and supporting your child however you can. Yeah,

Debbie:  

Thank you, Phyllis. Thank you so much. I just adore you. And I’m so grateful for you in the world. And yeah, and for you being here today. Thanks to everybody who joined us today. I’ll post the recording and the chat later on. And yeah, thank you again. Good to see you fellas. Take care everybody.