Dr. Jade Rivera on the Power of Strengths-Based Assessments for Neurodivergent Children

Debbie:

Hey Jade, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Thank you. Yeah, it’s great to be here.

Debbie:

It’s great to have you on the show. And we met many years ago now at, I think we first met at Bridges Academy, which I know is a very important place in your world and part of your work. And when I first knew of you, it was your work surrounding Sunnyside Microschool. But I know that you have been expanding and growing your work and your focus over the years and you’re doing such cool work, especially in the twice exceptionality space. So could you like, yeah, just kind of introduce us to you in terms of your evolution and what you’re really excited about doing right now.

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Yeah, yeah, thank you so much. Gosh, I have been, yeah. So I have spent most of my adult life working with twice exceptional children in an education capacity. I’m known for designing and launching and leading small learning environments, small strength based learning environments for TUI children in the Bay Area, known as micro schools. And that was work that I loved to do. I think I did it for about 17 years. I actually graduated college as a chemist and I worked, I had a career, a long successful career, well long for your 20s, successful career as a chemist. But just was ultimately unfulfilled there and wanted to find a change. I realized that my heart was really in working socially and for positive change. And so I found myself at a small alternative school with two -e children, though they weren’t called that. And just really fell in love with the population and a way of educating that I, yeah, that was fun, enriching, intriguing, and creative, and just never left. So that’s what I did for quite a long time and I wrote a book about it and I had a blog for a long time and I still speak about that work occasionally and write on Substack about it. And it’s actually what I completed my dissertation on through Bridges Graduate School of Cognitive Diversity. And now what I’m really proud of and what I’m really excited about is being a faculty member at the graduate school and also the director of our Strength-Based Assessment Lab.

Debbie:

Very cool. And your sub stack, I spent a little time poking around on that. And I would definitely encourage listeners to read. I really enjoyed the writing. And just the way you think about project -based learning and strengths -based learning is just very fascinating and very resonant for this community. And yeah, so I would love to then hear about, you mentioned, sorry, let me start that over.

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Thank you.

Debbie:

My brain, okay. Because I wrote notes while you were talking and then I lost where I was gonna go next, okay.

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Yep. Absolutely.

Debbie:

So you mentioned that the work you’re most excited about right now is being the lab director for the Strengths Based Assessment Lab at Bridges Graduate School. When I first heard of this, it was completely new to me and I know that it is new to the world. So I’d love if you could tell us just as a way to start, what is that lab? What is the goal for the lab? What are you doing there?

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Thank you for asking. So the Strength -Based Assessment Lab is part of the Bridges Graduate School of Cognitive Diversity. And what we are offering through the lab is a strength -based assessment called the Suite of Tools, which is a set of interview -based assessments that were developed by everyone’s favorite, Dr. Susan Baum, as well as Dr. Robin Schader and some of Susan’s other colleagues. And this is a field tested methodology that definitely comes out of the thinking and the research and the philosophy of Renzuli at UConn. And what we do is we speak with the child, we speak with the caregivers of the child and the education and non -education related professionals in the child’s life to talk about times of personal best, you know, when is this child thriving, under what conditions. What are some of their environmental obstacles to success? What’s holding them back? And what are our dreams and hopes for the potential of this child? You know, not just from the caregivers and from the adults perspective, but from the child’s perspective themselves. And we do this in a really engaging way that children seem to really enjoy. And then a case manager who has been trained through the graduate school.

Oftentimes it’s myself, but I do have colleagues that I work with take all of that information and we present it back to the same stakeholders in that child’s life. And then we work with them to brainstorm strength -based solutions and opportunities and talent development opportunities that are unique to that child’s specific profile. And the procedure itself, it’s so interesting because just the conversations that we have with families are rather transformative. Just because having an hour to speak with somebody who understands these things and who is interested in what your child loves and what’s going right in their life and what they’re good at is incredibly healing. It’s just not something that a lot of these families have an opportunity to engage in.

And then you get our expert perspectives and suggestions on the ways to contribute to their well -being in accordance with their highest and best selves and who we all know that they’re capable of being. And it’s just like, wow, you know, it’s absolute wow. And so back to the process a little bit, we present this case back to the people and we brainstorm these solutions. Then we take our additional expertise and provide more recommendations about 2e-friendly learning environments as they are often spoken about by Dr. Baum and other professionals associated with the graduate school. We talk about what we could do more of or less of in terms of educational practices in the classroom, in the learning environment, in the home school, wherever the child is learning. And then we speak specifically about talent development, which is something that we feel strongly about. We know that every child has something that they’re good at and speaking to and something that they love to do as well. And creating opportunities for that talent to expand and to grow and to evolve really is front and center, probably for all, well, definitely for all children’s wellbeing. But we know that it’s specifically important for the self -care concept and their self -esteem and the evolution of a twice exceptional child or a neurodivergent child. So that’s the process and we’re very proud of it. When you enroll in the Bridges Graduate School of Cognitive Diversity, you’re trained in this method. And then also families come to us from outside of the graduate school to receive the assessment through our professionals. In some ways what we’re doing here, I think like the whole, the world of twice exceptional, like the world of twice exceptional families really sees Bridges as this like North star, you know, of, of education environments, as they should as education environments for twice exceptional children. And in some ways we’re lifting the veil on that and we’re offering this experience that Bridges children do get as part of their enrollment through the schools, we’re sort of lifting the veil on that process and bringing it to families who can’t move to Los Angeles or cannot participate in the online school due to various reasons. And so it’s so funny because it’s really hard work. It takes a lot of focus and intention and individualization, but it’s just so incredibly satisfying. We get into these meetings with families and it’s like people are teary -eyed, but out of happiness and joy. And in our feedback forms, we ask for information. We ask for the child’s perspective on the process. And they’re always like, this was fun. Can I talk to Jade again? Can I talk to her? You know, what’s next in the process? I want more of this. And so I just, yeah, I’m really thrilled for pretty much any opportunity to speak about it. And we’re really, we’re very proud of it. And so that’s us.

Debbie:

I mean, listeners, if you could see Jade’s face right now, like it’s so obvious how much you love doing this work. You have the biggest smile on your face. It’s joy is what I’m reading and that is really cool. So, what an incredible opportunity for kids. So just some clarifying questions. So this is not to replace a neuropsych evaluation or how does it work with that? Can you talk about that relationship?

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Absolutely not, no, no. We, yeah, thank you. So we take that data, that data, if you have it, is very useful and we appreciate when families share that data with us and we triangulate that with our interview -based process and it does allow us to offer even more targeted recommendations. And also if a family doesn’t have those things, it’s okay. Like we can still do a really great job with our recommendations, particularly because our case managers and myself have been working with these children for a very, very long time. And we’ve kind of seen it all, you know, at least I know that I have seen it all. So we’re able to bring that perspective to the table. But this is not to replace a neuropsych whatsoever.

And in some ways, I would say that this works in concert with the IEP process. IEPs tend, even though they’re not really supposed to be, they do tend to skew towards a deficit -based model and put a lot of the onus on the child in terms of them changing rather than the environment, which is a complete departure from what we’re advocating for, we’re talking about setting the child up for success in environments with people who are creating the, who are bringing in the elements that are going to support this child’s strengths and talents and really offering support in that manner through those avenues. So while I understand and while we understand that there are serious concerns that often need to be addressed therapeutically or in one way or another, that’s not what we’re about. We’re really about looking at what’s right about the child, what’s good about the child, what’s possible for the child. And from my point of view, that’s the avenue through which to inspire betterment regardless. But that’s not really what we’re here to talk about. So, yeah.

Debbie:

So another question I have is just regarding the ages of these kids. So I think I might be wrong. I think Bridges is middle school and high school. Do I have that right? So is there an age that is ideal for this type of assessment?

Dr. Jade Rivera:

I think, really, you know, it’s so interesting when we get into conversations about ages for twice exceptional children because it’s sort of like you’ve got three or four in one, right? And so, yeah, I used to joke when I was still leading the learning environment, which was, you know, we’d have 10 to 15 twice exceptional kids in a classroom, and I’d be like, but really we have 40, you know, so.

Debbie:

True. Yeah, very true.

Dr. Jade Rivera:

So if you think about it that way, it kind of communicates the challenge. But regardless, the best, the children or the people or the ones that would benefit most from this process are the ones who are able to express themselves about their wants and their needs and their desires and their interests. And so I’ve met four year olds that can do that. And I’ve met 12 year olds who can’t yet, who are still working on that self advocacy as a skill. That said, we speak to the child’s support network and we’re able to gather that data through lots of our interactions and we know the right questions to ask. And so I would say it’s appropriate for a range of ages. We tend to attract kids who would be considered second graders, third graders, fourth graders through high school. And because the recommendations are entirely tailored to that child’s or that family’s unique constellation of needs. We find things, we find opportunities, we create suggestions no matter where the child is at in terms of their development. So yeah. So like most questions related to twice exceptional children, it depends.

Debbie:

Yes. In fact, we could just end the conversation right there. This all just depends. Now, it’s so true. It’s so true. And I love how you said 40 ages for 10 kits. It’s yes. So I want to talk a little bit more about this idea of talent development and the relationship or the difference between strengths and talents. And then I also wonder about this idea of passion, right? Which I know, there was a phase, I think the phase is kind of like over, but maybe I’m wrong there, where it was like, our kids need to have a passion, they need to have a passion. And then the conversation kind of changed, like that’s not, that’s a lot of pressure to put on a kid to identify a passion. So I’d love to know about this idea of strengths, talents, passion, like how do you kind of, how do they work together? How do you define those?

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Right. So, there’s multiple ways in which to think about these things. And I don’t know that any one is better than the other, but my thinking has evolved on these things as I’ve encountered more research, had more conversations with colleagues, my own experience, and sort of integrating those three things. And I would say that a strength, and this is in alignment with Sandra Kay’s work in talent development, which she has a great book out about talent development that I definitely suggest people take a look at if you’re interested in pursuing this further. She’s also a faculty member at the Graduate School, so a little plug there. When you come to this graduate school, you really get to learn from the best and the brightest in the field. It’s just what an honor and opportunity for people. And I’ll answer your question, which is that a strength, a strength to me, you know, based off all that stuff I just listed is really about, you know, what does the child, how does a child love to spend their time? What do they derive joy from, you know, as compared to themselves, right? From their own sort of lo -pi of control or focus.

Whereas a talent is really as compared to others their age or others in their sort of realm of, what’s the word I want to use here? Realm of performance. So a talent is a strength performed in some ways. However, we know that there, you might have a strength in, might have a strength in science or music or something like that, a certain pursuit. So I would say that a strength really, you might have a strength in music. Oh, I know what I was gonna say. Okay, great. So there’s, you might have a strength in music or writing or math or STEM subjects, but you also might have a character strength, right? You also might be particularly empathetic or particularly generous or have leadership capabilities or be creative in one way or another. And so all of that is data that we gather through our assessment and we’re able to make recommendations about ways to support that strength so that your child’s best self can really shine in whatever milieu or whatever environment that they’re in. And then with talents, we’re speaking specifically, what is this child good at performing and that word performing is like so loaded. We’re not talking about competition. We’re not talking about comparing one child to another in terms of who’s best or any of that. Well, that’s in there, absolutely. But that’s not the sort of pressure filled energy that we’re trying to bring to this. Instead, we’re trying to give them opportunities to have deliberate practice to learn from masters in the field to be with people who are interested in the same things as them so that they can push each other, inspire each other, collaborate, and develop those talents in their ways, in those ways. So it’s an important distinction, and maybe it’s a small distinction, but I think it’s important to note.

Debbie:

Yeah, and I love that you mentioned character strengths because I think even when we talk about strengths -based assessment, like that’s not where my mind went. I went to, as you were talking about strengths in math or science or visual spatial, we think about those things. So is there anything that you want to add about that character strength piece and how you go about identifying those? There’s of course the strengths finder assessment and there are lots of tools. Do you incorporate those?

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Yes. So we do not incorporate the StrengthsFinder, although that is a great tool and it’s wonderful. And if a family brought that to us, we would love that. But really those things come to be known through our conversations and through the questions that we ask for our assessment process and stories that families share. And yeah, so while we do definitely pay attention to those strengths, as you mentioned, visual, spatial, math, whatnot, those character strengths are in there as well. And I think what happens, like true magic happens, right, when we marry those two things and create opportunities for them to be known and to show themselves.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s awesome. I want to talk about this word of potential, which just keeps popping into my head. So with the gifted and TUI population, this idea of potential is kind of out there, right? Especially for parents raising these kids, we see this potential. There’s a lot of talk about our kids living up to our potential, and that’s something I, as a parent, personally, have tried to take off the table, because that can be in a tremendous amount of pressure. So how do you navigate this idea of talent development and really understanding strengths and supporting someone moving in that direction without placing this pressure on them to reach a certain potential.

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. I think it’s an incredibly important conversation to have. And I think everyone, I think, what are we talking about here? We’re talking about the overall well -being of a child, of your child, of a child. And to me, what contributes most to the overall well -being of a child is having opportunities to show the world what you love, what you’re good at, what you enjoy doing, and receive recognition for that. And that can be at the school play, that can be at Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts, that can be in the living room for your grandparents. But really it’s about having that audience and being known for what you’re good at and what you love to do and receiving some form of love and recognition in return for that self -expression. Every human in the world wants to express themselves. I think it’s front and center of what makes us unique as a species. And so providing opportunities to do so, I think is what contributes to the overall wellbeing and development of a child. It’s not about giving on America’s Got Talent or receiving the big award, all those things are great if that’s the goal of the child, if they’re driven for that, and some of them very much are. But that’s not the destination, right? The destination is fulfillment, it’s self -actualization, it’s knowing what it feels like to receive, yeah, like I think I said, the word recognition, to be recognized, to be known, to be seen, those are the things that we want more of for these children as appropriate to their nervous system, you know, because we know that that’s another aspect of this as well as, you know, for some children, it’s just gonna be the grandparents or the parents or their brothers and sisters in the room. That’s what their nervous system can handle. And for others, as we mentioned, those are the ones that are, you know, wanna take it further and wider, so yeah.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. And I’m thinking of a conversation I had with Dr. Devon McEachron many years ago, who does neuropsychs specifically for twice exceptional kids. And that’s one of the things she talks about is the importance that our kids understand their strengths, ideally, that’s where they’re going to spend their time. Like we all as humans want to spend most of our time in our zone of genius, not doing things that make us feel bad about ourselves. So that makes total sense. And I guess I want to ask a very practical question for listeners who are thinking, okay, this sounds amazing. How would a parent of a child get started working with a lab? What does that look like? I’m sure there’s a cost associated with it. You don’t have to tell us exact numbers, but can you kind of walk through that process for us?

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Yeah, absolutely. So what you would do is you would reach out to me. So I imagine you’ll maybe put my email in the show notes when this comes out. We’ll have our updated website. So I would, you know, I’d love to share that information with families. You can, so you can email me directly. You can contact us through our website and I will answer any questions you have about the process and our availability for the process. It is a process. It takes a couple of months because we gather a lot of data and really we want to get everybody’s perspective. And so scheduling is a bottleneck for these things. And also we’re very available and very there to receive that information. And so really that’s the first step. There is a fee associated with it. However, we do offer access to assessments through our doctoral program with our doctoral students who we train in this method. So there are opportunities for families who, there’s opportunities for a range of economic needs within our lab and really just reaching out to me and talking to me about that is the best way. Yeah.

Debbie:

And are these virtual or do they happen in person or is it a blend?

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Oh, great question. They can’t so they typically happen virtually and they work well virtually. That said, if somebody in my town wanted one, I would be happy to meet with them at their home. This is something that can take place in either format, but they tend to happen virtually. Yeah.

Debbie:

Okay, that’s great. So there’s so much more that we could get into. We haven’t really discussed micro schools and how they can support kids, neurodivergent kids, and how you work with, you know, individuals to help get those started, and so many other aspects of your work. But I do want to ask, for parents who have kids in a more traditional school setting who want to, who want, there are schools, the school administrators, the teachers, the people doing the IEPs to really kind of shift their lens to seeing their kids do this more strengths -based approach. Do you have suggestions or ideas for how they can start to change the conversation with those people?

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Absolutely, and I think, absolutely. So what I’m seeing in the results of these meetings with families in these more conventional learning environments is I’m seeing a ton of the onus being put on the child to change. Child will do X, X amount of time within this space of a few weeks or this space of a few months. And I just find that to be wholly inappropriate. Really what we want to do is really what we’re talking about with the twice exceptional child is positive niche construction. So what can we change in the environment and in the opportunities so that this child may be inspired in order to evolve this task that the adults in their life think that they should be better at? And so that might meet, that might mean that they are, that there are opportunities for them to engage in their area of strengths. So when doing blank thing that they love or are good at, they will make this choice that we are hoping that they will make in this number of times over this course of weeks or months, right? So I think getting that piece, fill in the blank, right, getting that piece in the beginning of the goal is what you want. And if you can advocate for that, then I think that that’s, then you’re halfway there, you know, then you’re halfway there. And then, so we talk about the least restrictive environment, right? Is your space universally designed for a variety of cognitive styles, right? Do you have, is movement available, is brakes available, is sensory control available through lighting and through hearing, auditory? And, you know, are they set up to succeed or is the environment set them up to succeed and what changes can be made in the built environment so that they can be set up to succeed? So those are kind of two avenues, two ways in which you might be able to create more strength -boosted or strength -based goals in those meetings.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s great. So if they have this information and their parents have a deeper understanding of their child’s strengths, including those character strengths, then that information. And I always like to say that with an IEP, and I’ve heard this from guests who we’ve talked specifically about this, there’s often a lot more room there than would be presented to us. Right. And so to know that we can really push for and ask for these things is so helpful. And I love that language when doing this thing. So it’s like what a parenting approach with our kids. When you do this, then this, but we can do that with our kids’ schools as well. It makes so much sense. Yeah.

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And so, and so that this is a service. So there are other services that we offer through the labs, the one we’re most excited about is the assessments, but consulting about creating strength based IEP goals is something that we do consultation around as well as professional development for educators and for schools and learning environments that want to understand how to design the built environment so that these children can thrive. So we offer a variety of services through the lab, but assessments really are that front and center piece.

Debbie:

That’s so exciting. Well, I just want to say, yeah, thank you for sharing all of this. I’m so happy to know that this exists. And I’ll just give a shout out to Marna, who I’ve known for years, who is a student at Bridges as well. And she’s been in the Tilt Parenting community for many years and she’s the one who shares. She’s like, you got to talk to Jade. And I’m so glad that she did because this is exciting. It feels like a big step forward in fostering deeper understanding for these complex, fascinating humans.

Dr. Jade Rivera:

I agree with you. Yeah, I absolutely agree with you. And it’s really fascinating sort of the cascade of change that can occur, you know, because we talk to teachers in these and they’re like, you know, when they are, and I was an educator for a long time as well, and I’m speaking to them in a partnership based fashion about what’s possible in their classroom and in their school, and then they get jazzed, right? And then they go and talk to other teachers and it creates, it’s like the ripple effect is just endless in terms of positive change. So yeah, absolutely. And Marna is one of my favorite people. And so definitely a shout out to Marna and sending her so much love.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yes, it’s awesome. And I can’t, you know, I started Tilt almost eight years ago now, and it’s just wonderful and exciting to see how the conversation has changed even in those eight years. So, and you’re a huge part of that, so thank you. Before we say goodbye, just listeners, I’m gonna have notes. In the show notes, I’ll include links to the Strengths Based Assessment Lab.

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Yeah, I guess what I want to say is that any opportunity, from something small to even the smallest opportunity for your child to demonstrate what they love and what they’re good at, even through just conversation, is a deposit in the bank of their well -being. And so any time that you can, anytime that you can facilitate that is time well spent. And sometimes that looks like something that you might not otherwise have recognized, right? That might be building with Lego, that might be on Minecraft, that might be playing with dolls or dress up or paper crafts or things like that. And so really noticing what your child loves to spend their time doing and creating more space so that they can do that more and expand upon that in a non -pressureful way, right, is going to be time well spent. And so, and so please, please do that.

Debbie:

What a great note to end this on. Thank you. Thank you, Jade. I’m excited to continue to follow the work that you’re doing and I just appreciate everything you shared today.

Dr. Jade Rivera:

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me. This was wonderful.