An Conversation with Dr. Emily Edlynn on Raising Autonomous Children

Debbie

Hey, Emily, welcome to the podcast.

Emily Edlynn

Thank you so much, Debbie. I’m really happy to be here.

Debbie

I’m happy to have this conversation. I’m so happy that I found your work and your awesome book, Autonomy Supportive Parenting. As soon as I read the title, I was like, oh, this is going to be a good read, a good fit for me personally and for our community. And so I want to get into that today. But before we do that, I always ask guests to kind of introduce themselves in their own words and always kind of tie in their personal why as they answer that. So would you do that?

Emily Edlynn

Sure, I love that. It’s kind of like the origin story, right? Yeah. So I, let’s see, I am obviously a trained child clinical psychologist. So that’s my professional identity. And I became a mother now about 14 plus years ago and discovered that my psychologist training prepared me in no way for being a mother. Yeah, it’s very humbling right off the bat.

Debbie

Good to know.

Emily Edlynn

And so when I was a new mom, I was looking for support and guidance and going, you know, this was back in 2009. So even just then the whole online world was different than it is now. But what I found, I knew from my training that it was not representing science accurately. And, you know, for example, the big one that was popular back then was attachment parenting. And I knew that their claims that these practices are what you need to do to create healthy attachments with your baby were not accurate. And I could also see how mothers, especially those who didn’t have my scientific background, would feel so guilty or shame or like they’re failing if they couldn’t uphold all of these attachment practices. And so that was really my inspiration for wanting to be a voice in the world of parenting guidance that brought a basis in science while also using common sense and compassion for how very complex and hard parenting is as well as joyful when we can find that joy. But the stress and pressure can really undermine us being able to find that joy.

Debbie

Yeah, absolutely. I love that you brought up the word joy. That’s something that I even in the tilt kind of, you know, languaging or the on the about page, it’s like I want to help parents find more confidence and joy in raising their kids. But it isn’t a word we often throw around loosely when talking about parenting. And it’s so interesting how you came into this as you were talking about attachment parenting. When my child was born, it was 2004. And at the time, I don’t even remember the name of the book, but there was a very popular book that was all about teaching your child. It was like a sleep training book, but it was really like they need to self -soothe. So it was really the exact opposite of attachment parenting. And it’s just fascinating how things have changed and this evolution in the parenting space. Could you even speak to that kind of broadly? And since you started really looking at the science and different approaches to parenting, what have you noticed in terms of the evolution?

Emily Edlynn

I find this really fascinating and Jennifer Senior covers it really well in her book, All Joy and No Fun, speaking of joy. But really, if you look back, we all know, I mean, many of us who are parenting now were children in the 80s and we know that that was a very different parenting culture. It was much more, you know, the latchkey kids. I was one of those and there was a lot of independence going on back then. A lot of hands -off parenting, children were not the center of the universe in those days. And from my understanding of what’s been traced over the decades, in the 90s, one of the pivotal events was these news headlines from a study about self -esteem. And as can happen in the media, the findings were overblown and generalized way beyond what the science actually showed and parents became convinced that they had to constantly heap praise on their children for their children to believe in themselves. And this was the start of this shift into this more child -centered family life. And then we have that morphing even more intensely into the helicopter parenting age around like early 2000s. And I really see that as persisting until this day.

I call it intensive parenting where it’s this idea that we are constantly putting our children’s needs front and center of everything else. We’re heavily involved in all aspects of their lives. We’re kind of micromanaging in many ways. And we’re doing this because of the messaging that that is good parenting. We’re doing it because we think this is the loving way to be a parent. However, we know that there have been some negative effects of this when we look at the research and even just common sense of young adults just sort of floundering because parents have done so much for them up until their adulthood. And now we’re in this age of, I think there’s a lot, what’s really popular is this gentle parenting, positive parenting. And I think there are definitely really positive aspects. I also think some of the claims can be overblown around how effective it is. I know there is research that it is not a good fit for kids with ADHD, for example. And so I think there’s another, like we can’t say anything is universally positive for every family and child. And the reason I bring up gentle and positive parenting as the current trend is because I hear a lot in my community how, especially mothers, internalize a lot of guilt and self -blame for not being able to stay calm all the time, you know, or these messages that are out there around, like this pressure on every interaction with our child matters, you know, for our relationship and for their well -being. It’s so much pressure. And so that is another motivation for me now is to really counter what’s been really popular with just more balance, more balance, more nuance, more flexibility, more compassion.

Debbie

My gosh, I took so many notes on everything you just shared and there’s so much to unpack and it’s super interesting. And when I think about helicopter parenting, I think of Julie Lythcott -Haims work and her book, How to Raise an Adult, which I love. And so many of these different strategies, I just wanna put this out there. Sorry, let me say that again. So many of these different approaches and I wanna say this upfront for listeners, because we’re a group of listeners who are raising neurodivergent kids, right? And so we also have explored all of these different approaches and felt, well, I like this in theory, it doesn’t work for me, you know, it’s just not a good fit. And so I wanna kind of say upfront that we’re gonna be talking about autonomy supportive parenting and also, acknowledge that you have chapters in the book that are just for parents raising autistic kids, raising ADHD kids, raising kids with mental health challenges. So we are going to address that. So this isn’t just another approach that well, that would be nice to do, but I can’t do it. Just want to say that upfront.

Emily Edlynn

Exactly. I love that you added that because that was one of the missions with my book. It’s not just another approach that makes you feel bad if you’re not, if it’s not quote unquote working. Yeah.

Debbie

Yeah, yeah, and that guilt is, it’s real. It’s, you know, it is something so many of us and I’m including myself in that experience because it is daunting and there are a lot of opportunities to feel like we’re getting it wrong. So as a way to kind of get into this conversation, I think it would be really helpful just so we’re all on the same page to know what autonomy supportive parenting means. I mean, I think, hearing the words, you can kind of get a sense and have a feeling about what it means, but how do you define it?

Emily Edlynn

Yeah, I wish there were a sexier way to say it, but this is, it’s a sciencey mouthful. But this actually comes from decades of research. This has been studied in academia since the early 90s. So there’s this huge rigorous evidence base for it and the term is autonomy supportive parenting. So I couldn’t really call it anything else. It’s rooted in a larger theory called self -determination theory, and some may be familiar with it, but just in case you’re not, which I actually had to re -familiarize myself even as a psychologist. But self -determination theory proposes that all of us have three fundamental human needs to be met for overall life satisfaction. And those three needs are autonomy, competence, and relatedness. So to break those down a little bit, autonomy, a lot of people interchange autonomy with independence. Autonomy is really much broader than that. Autonomy is this general sense of I have agency over my life and my choices. I know who I am. I have a strong sense of self. So being an autonomous being, is having that sense of agency and strong sense of self. What feeds that is competence, and that’s where skills come in and feeling independent that you can take care of yourself because you have developed skills to do so. So there’s the competence piece. And then relatedness is really the foundation where all of this grows from, which is that connection and relationship and sense of belonging, sense of community, having emotional safety in that foundation of relatedness. And so what autonomy supportive parenting is, is a set of strategies that is nurturing these three fundamental needs in our children. And what we know from the research that covers even infants, but I write about toddlers through adolescents, that kids perceiving autonomy supportive parents, or there are studies like with the toddlers where there are observations of how parents are interacting on certain tasks. There’s all kinds of different study designs over the decades. These kids show greater skills across cognitive, emotional, social domains. They do better in school. They have better social relationships. They’re psychologically healthier. I mean, the outcomes are consistently better. And what they’re comparing, the contrast with autonomy supportive parenting and the research they call controlling parenting. And that’s a really important piece to discuss that I do spend a lot of time on in my book because it’s sort of the threat or it undermines our autonomy supportive aspirations if we’re in a controlling place or mode. And in the research, kids who experience controlling parenting, and this is consistently not just in one day, but over time have worse outcomes. So they’re more likely to have psychological symptoms, to not do as well in school, to report just lower self -esteem, all of that.

Debbie

Yeah. So helpful. And thank you for breaking down the self determination theory. There’s a book that I had the authors on the show. Last season, they wrote a book called I Will Die ON This Hill. Their names are Meghan Ashburn and Jules Edwards. And it’s a wonderful book listeners go back and listen to that episode and check out the book. But they talk about this idea that they’re such a priority on helping our neurodivergent kids be independent and really what we want them to do is live self -determined lives. So I love that you bring that in and that, yeah, I mean, that’s a really important distinction. It’s a completely different lens through which to parent. And that control piece is really interesting too. 

Okay, so you mentioned that you talk about being a controlling parent. And when I started reading that section of the book, at first I was like, I am definitely a control freak. Like I will say that upfront. For me personally, having a need for control over my life and what’s happening in my world is really important. But as I read on, I realized that It was a little different from the way you define being a controlling parent. So can you explain what you mean by being a controlling parent and then how that is in such opposition to what you’re writing about and what we’re trying to do through being an autonomy supportive parent?

Emily Edlynn

Sure, so I’ll start with how the science talks about controlling parenting and then I’ll kind of segue into how I translate it for us parenting in real life. So in the science, it’s defined as using techniques like instilling guilt and shame, having contingent love. So you get my love and attention when you do X, Y, or Z. There’s psychological control and behavioral control. So the shame, guilt, conditional love are forms of psychological control that are really this idea of I want to control your psychological experience and who you are as a person. And then the behavioral control piece is a little more complex because, and I do get into this in great detail.

There are healthy ways to provide structure. So the healthy version of behavioral control is structure, but the unhealthy version is pressure. So the idea of using punishment versus discipline, for example. So punishment is not teaching. It’s just delivering a consequence, whereas discipline is using consequences as a way to teach. Rewards can be either done coercively, which is unhealthy and pressure. So you can only have this if you do this for me versus rewards to really celebrate that a child maybe is working on a behavior that’s important and very difficult for them. And when they make progress, we get to celebrate with a reward and it doesn’t have to be something tangible or concrete. It can be like, a fun outing, you know, of their choice. So that is a little more complex, but I think it’s important to distinguish. So that’s how the science defines control and controlling parenting. Now I see in real life that a lot of controlling parenting overlaps with this intensive slash helicopter parenting. So what we’re doing, even with the best of intentions, is really managing and controlling our children’s activities, school, friends, because of heavy involvement. And again, I really think we’re doing this because, and surveys have actually shown that parents equate this with good parenting these days.

But if we think of the school portal and the grades and paying attention to every single assignment, if we think about social media and this message that we need to be checking everything our kids are doing on their phones and their iPads, it can really snowball. And I have three kids myself. So I have a 14 -year -old, a 12 -year -old, and a nine -year -old. And so I have, I’m very transparent in the book about how I face my own controlling impulses. And that’s what I call it, controlling impulses. And those are human. And I really validate that. This isn’t a pursuit of never being controlling, because that’s not even realistic. It’s having awareness of those controlling impulses rising in us and then being able to pivot at times and think rather than act.

Debbie

Gosh, it’s so helpful to have that distinction. And as you were talking, I was thinking too of that conditional aspect of parenting. So even that language of if you do something, then this. And that reminds me of Alfie Kohn’s work and how we prioritize compliance and our kids behaving a certain way. So there’s just so much wonderful overlap here. And also, I’m thinking of Devorah Heitner’s work. I was just rereading her book Growing Up in Public with my Definitely Wired Club and just read that chapter on Class Dojo and all of those ways of trying to control and manage and be in our kids’ business, right? So it’s all so intertwined and complicated and exciting, actually. It’s exciting that we’re having these conversations because I think, years ago, we were just kind of plugging away. We were just doing the things without stopping and questioning and really looking at, you know, what is the outcome for our kids when we do these things.

Emily Edlynn

Yeah, and the outcome for us. What is it doing for our own energy and attention resources that are already limited? You know, I think we’re all burning out. This is why part of my title is Reduce Parental Burnout.

Debbie

Yeah. Yes, Reduce Parental Burnout and Raise Competent, Confident Children. That all sounds like a really good plan to me. So I know we can’t get into all of the details, but could you share with us what some of the hallmarks of autonomy supporting supportive parenting are? Like what is it? Again, I think there are 10 ingredients that you break down in your book, but just give us a couple of the things that are really powerful examples or traits.

Emily Edlynn

Sure. Sure. So yes, so the book I give is a top 10 and it’s 10 tools. A lot of them will be very familiar and intuitive and it’s sort of like how they all work together. And I just want to say throughout the book, I use vignettes across each age group and each topic and dilemma to really illustrate what a controlling response would look like, an autonomy supportive response. So it’s very concrete. And sort of like scripts, but it’s not like you have to do it that exact way. It’s just an example. So I would say the very first most important hallmark of autonomy, supportive parenting is the role of empathy and perspective taking. And really this idea of what is going on for my child right now. And I know that’s especially salient when parenting neurodivergent kids, because especially if we don’t have our own neurodivergence or the same, we may not really understand how they’re operating. And I think it’s so important. And so how do we have that empathy and understanding is we really use curiosity and investigate and ask open -ended questions, not in a judgmental way, like, why did you do that? but in a very curious, I’m really wondering what was going on for you when you made that choice. Like, I’m really curious what was happening, you know? And so that really has to be there for autonomy supportive parenting to happen because the rest of it is really following from knowing your child and knowing how they operate and being able to meet them where they’re at developmentally. So another huge part is scaffolding, which I’m sure you’ve talked about, and it’s a big piece of child development, but the idea of knowing your child’s developmental skill and not chronological age skill, but developmental age skill and knowing where they’re at and being able to nurture progressing to the next, to keep growing. And that’s where the other strategies like expecting independence and expressing trust in your child come in.

Debbie 

Yeah, every ingredient that you talked about or every element of this totally resonated. And the scaffolding is something we talk a ton about. You talk about using flexible language. And to me, all the examples were very similar to declarative language, which is something we talk a lot about in this community. And it just really was so in alignment. And I want to reiterate how concrete it really is. I loved reading that you have these kind of charts by age group. Of course, I have a young adult, so I would skip to the adolescent examples as being like, okay, because I really need those tools. But it was so helpful to see how these kind of very common universal situations that we might be in with our kids, how we would approach it using this autonomy supportive parenting lens. So I really appreciate those vignettes. I also like the way you broke the learning into sections of the challenge, the fear and the hope. That was really, you just nailed it. It’s like, yes, there’s challenge, there is a challenge and we do pivot to fear usually instantly, but what could we instead envision that could feel much more hopeful?

Emily Edlynn

Yeah, yeah. Right, and I think, you know, to bring it to your audience, and I work as a psychologist, I work with, you know, I’ve worked with kids with ADHD and autism and anxiety and all, you know, just all different wiring. And I love your whole philosophy about how even labels and diagnoses can be so lacking. And, you know, every child is their own person and it can be a helpful framework, but within that framework, there’s so much uniqueness and individuality. But I think that a lot of times these differently -wired kids get so much more negative feedback from their environments that it’s even more on us as parents to be their cheerleader and instill that positive sense of self that they do have strengths and gifts and they’re an amazing being exactly who they are and that is a huge gift we can give kids who are at risk of having more negative input from their environments.

Debbie

Yeah, yeah, that’s great. So you wrote in the book, in the chapter about ADHD, even if we know the benefits of providing autonomy support for children with ADHD, the primary challenge is that the behaviors associated with ADHD elicit more controlling responses from adults. And that really jumped out at me. I was raising my hand. And so I’m just wondering if you could share an example of a tweak that a parent of a kid with ADHD might incorporate when applying this approach to their child.

Emily Edlynn

I mean, I think what’s so important with kids with ADHD, they really do need more external structure because just by nature, there are those executive functioning parts of their brain that are weaker, that aren’t as developed. And that external structure helps kind of create those containers to help them function in ways that are important. However, so within, I just want to say that yes, we need to be more kind of hands -on and structured. And that’s part of the scaffolding is knowing, for example, like it’s really hard with many, for many kids with ADHD to initiate a task, right? To sit down and start their homework. And so maybe there’s, you just know you need to be very supportive and do it with them. That first step of sitting down or you pair something enjoyable with sitting down like their favorite snack or just something along those lines. In my house, what really worked well for the after school routine for my child with his own executive functioning weaknesses is having him collaborate with me on a schedule for what his after school routine would look like. So a big part of autonomy supportive parenting is this involvement in decision -making and really collaborating with your child. 

And of course we know that then they have more buy -in. And so this worked magically and this was like, I don’t know, second and third grade where he would write on the whiteboard tasks that were important but he didn’t want to do, like homework and a chore and shower, and then things he wanted to do. So it wasn’t just the list of the aversive tasks. It included play a video game, watch a show, play with my sister. So I think because he had so much agency in the process, then it became much more smooth. I mean, it was like a lot less pushback. And so I think kids with, I just wanna say this. I think, and I talk about in the book, that because kids that have some of these executive functioning weaknesses or differences, they get this feedback from their environments that is more controlling. They act out more because they want their sense of control. So I think what was a huge light bulb for me was thinking, Where is each child’s sense of agency? Like, where do they feel agency in their lives? And where can we bolster that if it’s low everywhere?

Debbie

And I assume it’s similar for autistic kids and, you know, talking about they there’s often this feedback for ADHD kids that they feel they do have control. We know a lot of autistic individuals are so really strongly respond to demands being placed on them. And so I imagine it would be very similar in really wanting an autistic child to feel that they have a voice, they have some agency, and always just be looking for those opportunities, right?

Emily Edlynn

Yep. And the flexibility piece is so important on our part. Of course, you know, for example, you know, it may look not great for an autistic child to be scrolling the iPad for hours on end. And then you think, well, it serves a different function than a non -autistic child who’s maybe becoming obsessed because there’s, they just had hours of their day of having all these social demands. And this is their way, their need to retreat and kind of recover from just high, you know, if they were at school all day. So I think it’s being flexible in our thinking too around what’s the function of these behaviors, even if the larger parenting guidance would tell me that this is a problem. Yeah.

Debbie

Yeah, yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I just released an interview with Meryl Alper who wrote the book Kids Across the Spectrum and she really is exploring the use of screens in tech by autistic kids. And so I appreciate you saying that, the function and role that it can play for neurodivergent kids. I wanna spend a minute talking about mental health. We know you have a whole chapter about it in the book. We know that a higher percentage of neurodivergent kids and adolescents are dealing with things like anxiety and depression, and it can be really paralyzing for a parent to know how do I navigate this. And you talk about more situational depression and then the difference if you have a child who is in a major depressive disorder or is really struggling. So can you talk about that balance between autonomy supportive parenting, and enabling. I mean, I think it’s really tricky when you have a kid who’s struggling.

Emily Edlynn

Yeah, It is. Absolutely. And I think this is again where we’re just constantly in a state of flexing as parents, right? Our kids are always changing. Their needs are always shifting. We think we’ve got the exact right fit and it lasts for a week, you know, in terms of how we’re approaching our kids. And I think with mental health, it’s very similar and it’s hard. It’s really hard in this day and age, especially as we’re all talking about it, which is a really good thing. But is this an anxious behavior or is this an anxiety disorder? Those are very different things. Is this an appropriate feeling of anxiety or is this a clinical problem that needs treatment? Overall, I would say how, when we’re talking about autonomy supportive parenting, is I talk about how the features of autonomy supportive parenting are protective for developing depression and anxiety by the nature because autonomy supportive parenting is promoting the very things that are lacking when someone’s depressed and anxious such as a sense of control and a sense of agency. However, this is not the panacea. You can be doing autonomy supportive parenting and your child can still become depressed and or anxious. And so it’s then recalibrating and seeing where your child’s at, where they’re struggling. And that’s where the scaffolding comes in again. And having your expectations meet their abilities. And for anxiety, for example, we know that if we let our kids avoid, it reinforces the anxiety. So it’s so tempting because that feels, there’s a pull of, well, I don’t want you to feel that way, so no, you don’t have to go to soccer or wherever. The problem is that the next time it’s gonna be harder, and the next time even harder. And so I do have a chapter in my book about that emotional resilience and developing emotional health, and I think there’s a lot of tips in there as well, even when a child’s struggling with anxiety or mood. But I think it’s… The empathy and perspective taking piece is really important because you want your child to still communicate with you when they’re struggling. And if they feel like you are interested and caring and curious, they are more likely to be open and share with you what’s going on. And then you can more effectively interact with them and kind of meet their needs while gently pushing on things that feel uncomfortable for them, you know, but it’s from a loving place of there has to be some discomfort for you to like get through this to the other side.

Debbie

Right, right, okay, thank you for that. So I wanna just, before we wrap up, I had two questions that I wanna make sure that we get to. One is, I’m just curious, what are the biggest roadblocks that you find for parents to adopt this parenting style?

Emily Edlynn

I think there’s a parenting culture right now that that discourages it, really. I think I’ve heard from parents, they feel judged if they let their kids stay at home alone because they can handle it independently. Or they feel judged if they’re not signing their kids up for a million activities. So I think part of it is that, is the parenting culture at large and the fear of judgment of doing it differently. I think in this day and age, it’s a lot of these approaches are different. I have felt like the odd mom out many times and I push on, we can let the kids figure it out. I’m not gonna solve this problem for my child. They can figure it out. And that is different. That is being different as a parent in this day and age.

Debbie

Yeah, yeah. Do you see this as a, what you just described as a more American phenomenon? Like, you know, you do talk about culture in the book, and I appreciated that chapter as well. And as someone who lived abroad in a country that really does prioritize autonomy, and giving kids a lot of independence from an early age, it just made me wonder like, Okay, your thoughts on the American-ness of this.

Emily Edlynn

Yeah, I do, I mean, I would theorize that it’s quite American. I would love to hear from other countries, from people in other countries. I do think there’s a general kind of intensity to American parenting that is different in other cultures. So I think you’re probably right on.

Debbie

Yeah. And very much wrapped up in that achievement culture. And, and that would be a whole other episode that we could get into, but yeah.

Emily Edlynn

Yes. Yes. Oh, I know. Let’s not even talk about youth sports. Yeah.

Debbie

Yeah, right, right. So one last question. I’m just wondering, I hear from a lot of parents and you may work with families in this situation where one parent is really on board and another parent is not. And do you have any advice for helping partners get on the same page?

Emily Edlynn

Oh, that’s such a great question. And you know, I don’t think anyone else has asked me that, and it’s so important. I mean, we know that if both parents are similar in their approach, that it’s more effective, and that’s just what it is. I know it’s funny because my husband does not read parenting things. But when we get into a dilemma, he’ll look at me and say, well, what does your framework say? Like, what should we do? And he’s finally reading my book, which is really nice. And it’s interesting because he is having more insight into his own controlling impulses. So I think part of it is, you know, kind of using autonomy supportive tactics on our co -parent as well, right? Like, using our own empathy and perspective taking and curiosity about their experience of parenting and kind of what is at the root of how they approach parenting. And then gently, you know, offering other ways to think about it or look at it and find their motivation to change. So a big part we haven’t talked about, because there’s no way to talk about everything in half an hour, is the role of internal motivation and how autonomy is supportive strategies actually work is it’s building internal motivation. So I think with a co -parent, what you want is to work on where’s their motivation to change and then they might be more receptive to some of these ideas.

Debbie

Great answer. I love that. As you were answering, I got a text pop in from my husband. I’m like, oh, he must know that we’re talking about partners right now. So you’re right, we could not go into all the things and your book is so thoughtful and helpful. And it really is so in alignment with really everything that I believe personally as a parent that we talk about here in the Tilt Parenting community. So listeners, the book is called Autonomy Supportive Parenting, Reduce Parental Burnout and Raise Competent Confident Children. And where can listeners go to learn more about you and your work?

Emily Edlynn

So I have a website, EmilyEdlynnPhD .com, and I am @DrEmilyEdlynn on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And then I also have a substack at the Art and Science of Mom.

Debbie

Very cool, awesome. But listeners, I will as always have links to all of those resources in the show notes, as well as all the things that came up in conversation, because there was a lot of name dropping and suggested reads in there. So I’ll include all of that as well. So thank you, Emily. I so enjoyed this conversation. And yeah, we might have to do a part two to get more into the concepts. Thank you.

Emily Edlynn

I would love to. Thank you, Debbie. It’s been an honor.