Kirsten Jones on Raising Empowered Athletes & Keeping Sports Fun

Debbie:
Hey Kirsten, welcome to the podcast.

Kirsten Jones:
Thanks for having me, Debbie. I’m so excited to be here.

Debbie:
Yeah, I think we’re gonna get into lots of good stuff. And we did this before I hit record, but I’m gonna ask you to do it again because kind of give us a little bit of the highlights of your story as it connects to your personal why and the context for what we’re gonna be talking about today.

Kirsten Jones:
Lifelong athlete, played all the sports growing up in the 70s and 80s, and then ended up being a college athlete, played D1 volleyball at two different schools, graduated from there and decided to move to Eastern Europe because I had two sisters living there. And over there, I realized my why was, I’ve always, sports was always a through line for me. And now that I was done quote unquote playing sports after college because there was no pro league at the time, I searched out Nike and found if I can’t get paid to play sports, can I get paid to talk about sports all day? And so ended up working for Nike for nearly 15 years in Europe and then at World Headquarters in Portland, Oregon. And while I was doing that, I started, you know, met the man of my dreams, started the family along the way, and started finding that I was helping at Nike, helping and coaching other employees around how do you do work life balance? How do you be a mom and still have a social life and still get to do what you love. And so I ran marathons all through my time at Nike because it was this fun outlet. And that was totally culturally accepted and fun and challenging and also kept my own identity, you know, while all of a sudden you get lost in being, you know, a worker and a mom. And so out of that was when this idea came to me. So now about 14 years ago, I got a life coaching certification through Tony Robbins. And nine years ago, I started my own podcast, Raising Athletes, because I started seeing my kids struggling on the sidelines, struggling on the court, and I was struggling on the sidelines for the tools and the help to navigate youth sports. And we think we sign our kid up for kick and chase, and it’s just gonna be this easy ride. And we realize it’s more complicated than that. So I ultimately wrote the book that I wanted to read, which was that our kids are not all going D1, we’re not all gonna raise pro athletes. In fact, now the statistics bear out 98% of us won’t play beyond high school. And that’s okay. And in fact, it’s more than okay because the life lessons we really want our kids to learn are grounded in not making the team and getting cut. And having the bad coaching experience. And so what I do now a lot is work with parents and athletes in group settings and one-on-one to talk through those life lessons that we want them to have, to become resilient and gritty and empowered.

Debbie:
Of course, my brain is going in all different directions. I was an athlete. I still consider myself an athlete. I’ve been running for more than 40 years, which gives you an indication of how old I am. But it was such an anchor for me. So I personally am super interested in this conversation. Even though my child is not an athlete, I know what it has done for me and how important it is to my identity and also getting me through my childhood. It was a really important anchor for me. So I’d love to kind of talk about what you notice in the youth sports culture today. Like what is happening right now and how has it changed since you’ve been doing this work?

Kirsten Jones:
So in the 60s and 70s, about 20% of women worked outside of the home. By the 70s and 80s, that number had doubled. Around the same time, No Child Left Behind comes out. Our kids are losing traction academically. Now mom is also working outside of the house. In 1979, there’s an abduction, and on the, you know, Adam Walsh gets abducted, and everybody turns on their TV, and 30 million people find out that the world is a scary place. So, where we could just let the kids go ride bikes around the neighborhood, we realize we need to structure this differently. We need to give them a safe place to play. Okay, mom’s working and dad’s working. How can we manage to support the kids? Well, why not have a dad coach? So dads start getting involved mostly. And we start organizing sports much more. Whereas, you know, in our generation, yes, there was a coach and dad may have helped out, but there wasn’t travel, there wasn’t all of this intense sports at a very young age. In the 80s and 90s is when kind of gas gets thrown on the fire. Early 80s, ESPN comes online, right? Now we can watch sports 24-7. You have you start seeing the prodigies like the Tigers and the Serenas and the Gretzkys and we start learning about the 10,000 hour rule from Malcolm Gladwell, who’s talking about, wow, if your kid spends 10,000 hours playing a sport, how much better could they be? I don’t blame parents. I don’t think there’s any ill will in parenting, but I do think there was this mixing pot of all of those factors were happening at one time where, wow, if maybe if I get involved and coach my kid earlier and they have more disciplined, structured learning, then they can get ahead. And it started to lead, the frog in the pot, you know, the pot started to boil. Then you had companies like Nike and Adidas throwing money at it and saying, we’re gonna have shoe teams, we’re gonna start paying. So what we see now is at the college level, college has really become pro sports. That’s actually been going on for decades. It was just all under the water. You couldn’t see it. But now you’re really feeling it at the high school and college level where the pressure and the feeling of, you know, being left behind is just greater and greater.

Debbie:
Wow. Yeah, it’s fascinating to have that context going all the way back, but that makes so much sense. And I guess what I’d love to know is, you know, I was mentioning before, like what an anchor that was for me as an identity and as just a purpose and also just mental health, like so many aspects. What do you see as being most at stake for our kids when their relationship with sports is changing in this way.

Kirsten Jones:
I joined Nike in 1995 and If You Let Me Play came out that year. I still, actually my bottom lip quivers every time I watch that ad because it’s young girls talking about the importance of sport and what it is. I’m less likely to stay with a man who beats me, I’m less likely to get breast cancer, I’m more likely to be a leader. We know that 94% of C-suite women played sports. Doesn’t say they played in college, doesn’t say they played pro. It says they participated in sport. And what we see now are somewhere upwards of 70% of kids are dropping out of sport altogether by age 13. Why? Because they’re not having any fun. Why? Because we’ve gamified, you know, focused on winning, focused on the trophy, focused on the platform. And they’re just saying this isn’t for me. Yet what we know is if you are still running at 23 or beyond, you’re more able to deal with adversity, you’re more able to deal with setbacks, you’re more able to self-soothe and learn how to get through those rough things. So I preach, you know, to anyone who will listen, this isn’t about playing beyond high school. This is about life skills that make us grittier and more resilient and being able to fall down and stand up and say, I got this.

Debbie:
I was thinking earlier too, when you were talking about how the world changed, right? And how we started to think the world’s a scary place. And parents started kind of funneling into these more kind of curated experiences. And you mentioned No Child Left Behind. As we’re recording this, my interview with Dr. Peter Gray just came out about his book, Restoring Childhood. And that was also a theme that we talked about. I’m making lots of connections in my brain as we’re having this conversation. But who’s behind? I want to know who’s really behind this. Like, what do you see as the key drivers? Like, I think as parents, it’s hard not to jump on the bandwagon. I’ll give you an example. This isn’t sports related, but it’s related to a game. So when my child was in kindergarten, there was a chess club after school. My, you know, little six-year-old was like, sure, I’ll try chess. No experience. Went to chess. And after like two after-school chess lessons or club gatherings, you know, the woman who ran it pulled me aside and said, you know, here are some worksheets your child is really behind. And I was like, I’m sorry, what? Behind on chess in kindergarten? What, this is supposed to be fun and an exploration? And we did not stick with that program, but I, it seems like there’s a relationship between what we’re talking about. So as a parent, it’s easy to get sucked into, well, this is the landscape I have to get with the program. So who do you see as really kind of driving the culture that we’re parenting through?

Kirsten Jones:
I think that is the million dollar question because that’s exactly the feeling that every parent has. I was coaching nine-year-old volleyball for four or five years prior to the book coming out. And I remember very clearly multiple parents, but specifically one woman coming to me and apologizing. And I said, I’m sorry, what? She said, she’s nine. I know we’re behind. And you know, she’s never played volleyball. Like I didn’t pick up a, I didn’t even know what a volleyball was until I was 15, until I was a freshman in high school. And was able to play in college, right? Because I was, you know, ultimately, I guess it’s because I was a decent athlete, right? Like I played softball, I knew how to throw a ball, I picked up volleyball faster because I had played so many sports that in fact by the time I got to San Diego State, that coach said, you’re actually a really good athlete. You’re not a great volleyball player, but that’s okay. We can teach you how to play volleyball. And there are certain sports like gymnastics, like you know, ice skating that kids have to start young. Like that’s part of, you know, unfortunately, the arc of those sports. But most sports, they don’t need to, you know, you don’t need to be playing volleyball at nine. You need to be a good athlete. I mean, taking gymnastics, having great core strength, taking ice skating. Like I took that approach with my kids as like let them try everything and sample and see what they’re good at. And I get that question a lot from parents. They’re like, well, you know, how do I know what they’re supposed to do? I say we sign up for something if they show interest in it, you sign up for it for a season. Assuming it’s good coaching and there’s no, of course, abuse or anything going on, we finish the season. Yeah, but they don’t like it. We get through the season and now it’s a research project. Okay, what do you want to try next? And if they’re dragging their feet, if they’re crying in the car, you know, okay, that’s not their thing, and that’s okay, but we’re gonna pick something else. To your question, what’s happened is society has said we need to do it this way in order to get ahead. You know, the parents are just reflecting back what they feel, which is the pressure of, my gosh, we gotta do kick and chase at two, or we’re gonna be behind. And what I’m seeing on the other side are, I have a 20-year-old I was talking to last night. When did you start swimming? Two. When did you start swimming competitively? Four. So when did you fall in love with swimming? Never.

Debbie:
Yeah. Wow.

Kirsten Jones:
And they’re not pulling on the rope. They’re not asking for it because they’re really good at it. And they’ve been doing it their whole life. In fact, their entire identity is now on one thing. And I love Jennifer Wallace’s book, Mattering, because I really feel like that’s what’s happened is all of their identity, we don’t have hobbies. They don’t have part-time jobs, they don’t have time to clean the dishes. Mom will take care of the dishes and we’ll clean up the room for them. And we’re doing it not out of ill will. We’re doing it to try to help them. But what happens is when you take away the agency of, okay, you struck out at the baseball game, but you know, you still need to go help, you know, the neighbor with the yard today, like you add value because you’re a part of this family. Not because you won the trophy, not because you’re on the one’s team. That’s not why we’re supporting this. And we’ve as a society, so to the point of who’s responsible, it’s people follow the money, right? And okay, if my kid wants to get better, then I again can’t really blame the parents, although the parents are the ones paying the money, right? They want their kid to get better, so they’re paying the money. If somebody wants to, you know, like clubs are being set up because they can make more money. So now private equity has come online and it’s doubled the scope of where the money goes.

Debbie:
As you were talking, I think it was a Malcolm Gladwell book I read recently. I think it was Revenge of the Tipping Point, where he’s talking about the way that Ivy League schools are using sports as a way to kind of shape their student body, which I found really fascinating. And so I wanted to talk a little bit about that, you know, you were talking about getting ahead, right? So there is that very real pressure parents feel. And earlier you said kids are missing out on opportunities to build resilience and to build grit and all of those things. What are some of the negative mental health ramifications of being a highly competitive athlete, of having that pressure, of feeling like I need to do this in order to get into the right school?

Kirsten Jones:
Your life becomes so monosyllabic, so in one little track that you don’t even, and I do have a lot of athletes. Now I would say almost half of my athletes that I’m working with currently are online. So now you’re taking away the social piece. They’re not even going to school and standing in the hallway and talking to friends and getting to connect and talking about the party on Friday night or where they’re gonna go next weekend. They’re sitting in their room until it’s time to go to practice. And why do you do that? Well, the ice time is only at certain times. And if you want to get better, you’ve got to be home. So I get why those choices are being made, but what you’re actually doing is taking away the opportunity to grow in other ways. Interestingly, a lot of, I call it homework when I give them assignments, but homework is, you know, because they’re getting online way too much. They’re watching videos, porn, gambling. I mean, the whole thing. In fact, I have a client right now who said, I had to get off of Instagram because it’s just thirst traps. Like that actually was leading me into a porn addiction because, and he’s not even like downloading porn, but that’s the way the algorithm works. You click on one bikini and now all of a sudden you’re down this rabbit hole. So these athletes who are super focused, hyper focused on a sport, it’s also completely taking every other dimension out of their lives. And they’re not growing in other ways. So I’m giving homework, like actually a client this morning, like she’s a very, very skilled equestrian rider. And she said that she’s like, I’m really, really good at this, but I don’t have anything else and I need to get my shoulder better. And I said, that sounds like you should get in the pool. And she’s like, I never even thought of that. I love swimming. And she’s like, well, I don’t like doing anything unless I’m really good at it. I’m like, the whole point of swimming isn’t to, I don’t want you on the swim team. We’re not trying to pivot and become an Olympian. This is just for you to enjoy the moment. And she just, her body language changes. She’s like, that’s a really good idea.

Debbie:
Yeah. You know, there was an article that I flagged, knowing we were gonna have this conversation. It was in CNN, I think it was last week. It was called Parents Are Turning One of the Best Things for Kids’ Mental Health into One of the Worst. And it talked about, well, first it said that, you know, a big review of studies found sports boost kids’ mental health, but only with sustained, enjoyable participation. And that early specialization is really linked to burnout. So is that something that you see in a lot of the kids that you work with?

Kirsten Jones:
Burnout physically, mentally, and emotionally. So, you know, overuse injuries, you know, there’s now, you know, kids getting Tommy John surgery, electively getting Tommy John surgery at 12 or 13, because there’s actually some theory that you’ll actually be able to throw harder. So going and getting an operation actually to help you play longer. But yeah, even if you physically can do it, the mental toll it’s taking on the kids, I have had multiple clients who they throw up either during their games or before their games. One was directly linked to the parent who would actually text the child during the soccer game. And I was like, how does that work? And she said, well, I have to go over to the sidelines and my dad’s making eye contact with me across the field and I look in my bag and he’s texted me, why did I bother coming?

Debbie:
That’s heartbreaking.

Kirsten Jones:
It’s heartbreaking, right? And I have another client who, you know, maybe not parent-led, but this, I’ve said that since I was eight, I want to play D1 volleyball. I have to do this because I’ve said it out loud and the pressure that they feel. And of course, I again I don’t blame, a lot of parents are like, okay, I get it. And if she doesn’t play in college, it’s totally fine. But there’s this, my whole identity is wrapped into this now. So yes, they’re burning out. They’re melting down. I’ve got another kid with the yips right now who’s, you know, trying to figure out, he’s been dealing with it for three years. He’s been trying to muscle through figuring out how to throw a baseball again. And he said, I’ve always wanted to play in the MLB, but now when I go to practice, I just hope the coach doesn’t call on me to have to throw the ball. And he goes, I say that out loud and I know that’s what the game is. So he’s like, I understand that I’m actually saying the opposite of what I’m supposedly saying is my joy. It’s not joyful anymore. It’s really just painful.

Debbie:
And what happens then? You know, these kids don’t make the team in university or whatever, their career ends, this thing that’s been their sole focus. You know, do you see that there’s a rejection of all of it then? How do people, or do people, find their way back to a place of joy with using their bodies and being physical in that way?

Kirsten Jones:
That’s my dream is that they will at some point, we all have to pivot, you know. Even LeBron is gonna have to hang up his shoes here soon, right? But most of us pivot before we choose to pivot. Like eventually you don’t make it to the very top. Like I had a dream to play in the Olympics. I never made it to the national team. Like, thanks, Kirsten, you were great. Now, you know, be on your way. But what you want them to do is to walk away from the sport and, that’s what I write about in the book, is you see these kids who have had really abusive coaching because the coaches are so tied to the outcome, not the development. You know, having your recent guest Oscar talking about growth mindset versus fixed mindset. And if you actually just have a performance-based mindset versus a mastery mindset, that’s what we want these kids to get is how can I get better? Not how do I win the trophy or how do I get onto the Division One team. But then if I have that mindset of I’m just curious, then when I pivot, I’m going to take those skills and be like, okay, I’ve never tried, you know, water skiing before. Huh. How do I learn? Well, let’s see. I did that in soccer. Let me, you know, you start to at least look at it through the lens of, you know, I’m not just one thing. And that’s what these kids are seeing is they define their entire ego as resting on one pillar. And I like to say the foundation of the house has to have many, many different pillars in order for it to be held up. So let’s help you develop, what are those other pillars. And by the way, at 15 or 20 or 25, or honestly, parents, at 45, try something new. Like be a beginner again and to parents who are listening to this and say, yeah, my kid won’t try anything else, model it. Oh my gosh, I’m playing golf. I am horrible at golf. You know, do you want to try with me? Right? I had an Olympian on my podcast like five or six years ago. She went to five Olympics as a volleyball player. And then she went back, she had played at Long Beach State. It’s an amazing athlete. Went back and then tried for her sixth Olympics in basketball and didn’t make it. And at the time I interviewed her, she had a seven-year-old daughter. And they were learning how to play piano together. And she goes, she is so much better than I am. But we, I really, my goal is to be able to play, you know, together with her. So I’m really practicing hard. Like that’s a mastery mindset of how do I get better at this? Not, I’m a five-time Olympian. I have to be better than my seven-year-old. It’s what can I learn?

Debbie:
Right. Yeah. As I mentioned, I ran for many, many years. And like, my whole identity was as a runner. I ran track at Penn State for my freshman year and then realized I really just can’t be competitive here. Like I’m not a D1 runner, sprinter. And I left the team after that first year, and it was a real heartbreak for me. Like I really had to kind of grapple with that. Like, who am I without this? But because I, of course, I was competitive with myself, but I was so self-driven with everything that I had done that there wasn’t an issue for me to kind of pivot into, well, I can run 5Ks or I’ll be a distance runner. And so I’m realizing that had I had that more performance mindset or if it was external forces that were kind of pushing me, I wouldn’t have, I would have been like, thank goodness this is over. Now I’m just gonna completely, so it makes total sense and which is why I think this conversation is so important for parents with younger kids. Like how do we foster that mastery mindset in them?

Kirsten Jones:
Yeah, if it’s only about the carrot, it’s not gonna be sustainable. Jump high, jump higher, you’re gonna do this. It’ll last for a while. And again, you may get them to, maybe they have enough athleticism to overcome it, but what is the journey gonna be like? And what are they gonna take away from it? And what’s the long-term cost?

Debbie:
Right. What’s the cost? Yeah. Yeah. So just to touch upon the parent experience. So you work predominantly, I’m assuming, with the athletes. Like what do you see in terms of the parents like sitting on the sidelines? Like that story about the text, like that just kills me to know that that’s happening. Is it fear driven? Like what is driving the parents to do this? And how do you encourage them to take a step back?

Kirsten Jones:
We’ve overinvested in every way, shape, and form. And now that we have, we’re live streaming the game when we’re not there. I have parents who, I feel so bad. You know, they’ll call and say, I need you to work with my daughter, but you know, I mispracticed yesterday and I just feel awful. I’m like, you mispracticed or your daughter mispracticed? No, no, I mispracticed. I’m like, if your child is playing their sport and they need you to be there, or you feel you need to be there, go take a lap. Go run, go model to them that you’re taking care of yourself as well. But we’ve overinvested so much to the point that, and I hear this a lot from parents, well, we got first place. Well, we’re on the ones team. You know, like all of a sudden it’s not, this is their journey. I have one mom and dad on the phone together. And I get this more now. You said I work with the athletes. I actually now have more and more parents that say, I need the help. I’m the one that’s dysregulated. Can you give me the tools? Because they realize they’re ruining the experience for their kid. But this dad was, he’s like, I know, I’m the jerk. I’m the one that’s, and I said, well, you know, what’s going on on the sidelines? He goes, well, every time he misses a pitch, I roll my eyes. He goes, I’m not yelling. I’m like, the eye roll can be as powerful as somebody screaming and yelling. Because what’s the kid’s head’s on a swivel and they’re just checking to see what does dad think? So, you know, there are different strategies that, yes, I work with them. Is it missing a game? I mean, during COVID, honestly, that was one of the biggest blessings. My daughter was playing volleyball and I had played volleyball in college. So I’m sure just having me on the sidelines, her feeling not enough if she wasn’t playing. And she did. She kind of said, Mom, I kind of like it when you’re not there. And like, I’m not even, I’m being good. It’s not about you. It’s about her. And I think we’re so over invested in the equipment and the $300 bat and the trophy, we spent all this money. And they feel that pressure too. And so they know what you’ve invested monetarily, time-wise, you live in your car, all of that. But if it’s not an intrinsic drive, if it’s not their own curiosity, it’s not going to outlast the ups and downs of making the, you know, the top team or not getting the playing time or playing for the coach that doesn’t like them. Those things become insurmountable.

Debbie:
Yeah. So do a little bit of a pivot. And I’m just curious because you know, obviously we both believe so deeply in the power of sports and learning these skills. And for neurodivergent kids, sometimes sports participation can be more complicated. I just was watching, I think it was an Instagram reel talking about how for neurodivergent athletes, especially kids with ADHD, like solo sports tends to be really good for them, where they get into more of a rhythmic, you know, meditation almost, which made sense for me as a runner, but swimmers, you know, Michael Phelps, like we know that that’s a thing. So I’m just wondering, you know, if you work with neurodivergent athletes and how kind of accommodating you have seen, if at all, coaches and kind of these more formal programs in terms of understanding the needs of the neurodivergent athletes. Is that a thing?

Kirsten Jones:
70% of youth sport coaches receive no training of any kind. You were a good athlete. Here’s a whistle. Here’s 14 kids and 28 parents. Good luck. So any kind of skills around how do I communicate with the parents? What are the boundaries? Putting in a 24-hour rule if you want to talk to me, having your child advocate for themselves. Just across the board, when you add neurodivergent to it or add any type of, honestly, the whole system’s been gamified for the top two percent. And by that I mean the ones who are naturally tall and gifted and athletic. And we set up our whole club so that we can win. And so the ones that naturally just kind of matriculate to the top are the ones that we spend all the energy on, that get all the, you know, all the resources. And if your kid is on the fives team and has trouble, you know, getting to practice on time and understanding what the drill is calling for and feeling not a part of the group, it, I would love to see a lot more resources go to actually helping the coaches get the tools they need because they’re not told like, okay, there are going to be certain players there that, they just, help them, take them out of the drill. Let them take a moment, ask for when they’re ready to rejoin, and allow them to come back in. I do get parents who call and actually had a call with a dad yesterday, and to his credit, he tried four different sports with his son. He said he kind of runs funny. He’s not the most athletic, but I just want him participating. And I said, okay, well, what about going back to the why? And he said, even at the YMCA, they were all so focused. He just wants to play pickup basketball. He’s not very athletic. He’s not very tall. He, you know, he struggles with, you know, day-to-day, but I want it, I know how important sports is. And he said, yeah, now even at the Y, it’s about the trophy. So that’s a big issue. And again, it’s not just about sports, it’s about supporting them on and off the field.

Debbie:
Yeah. So all right, we’re gonna wrap up and I’m gonna ask you one last kind of share your wisdom with us question, if you will. And that is for listeners who have kids, perhaps younger kids or kids who haven’t really been involved in sports yet. And you really want to encourage them to participate in a way that can foster all of those benefits that you talked about earlier. And have it be a really positive experience for their kids. What advice would you give them?

Kirsten Jones:
I like to say focus on the three Fs. Find a club or a program that focuses on friends, fun, and fundamentals. So finding out what are our family values? Because I get that question a lot too. Well, he’s eight and he’s supposed to be playing travel and we have grandma’s 80th, and we really wanted to go camping for a month this summer, but we can’t because we’re going to be behind because we’re playing travel. What are your family values? Is it going to be important 10 years from now? And I know it’s hard. When we look back, we can go, I should have never done that and that and that as a parent. When we’re looking forward, we don’t want them to miss out on something, you know, that they didn’t get that opportunity because we wanted to go camping for a month. But I’ve talked to enough Division One coaches. If you think your kid is super talented, they miss two weeks, three weeks, 10 days of a season. That is not going to define who they become. Because they’ll be curious enough to figure out how do I work harder? What do I need to do in the long run to get to where I want to be? But the best advice I can give to parents, you know, forget the fourth F, which is FOMO. Like, well, they’ve got the private coach, well, they’ve invested in this, well, they’ve gone to four clubs in five years. That must be the formula. I have a really great coach who gets down on my child’s level. Who looks them in the eye, who understands that they aren’t catching what he’s saying. And he says it again. Stay there. I don’t care if they lose every single game. I don’t care about the trophy. I think the bar should be at the end of the season, not whether they won or not, but if the kid says, that was great, can I do that again? You won.

Debbie:
That’s great. Thank you. Wonderful. Okay. We’re going to wrap up, but I want to just mention your book, which if you’re watching us on YouTube and if you’re not watching us, go watch us on YouTube. Go to the Full Tilt Parenting YouTube channel. But Kirsten’s book is Raising Empowered Athletes and you have a podcast and anything you want to share in terms of where people can connect with you.

Kirsten Jones:
Yeah, so thank you so much for having me on. This has been so fun. I’ve been so excited to talk to you and I love how you bring these really big issues and you boil them down and help us understand them. And that’s what I think great parenting is, is sharing our collective knowledge. And as Maya Angelou said, when we know better, we do better. And so I love doing that too. And that’s my goal. Kirsten Jones Inc. is my website. You can find the book, you can find the Raising Athletes podcast. I do work one-on-one and my passion is speaking. So if you have, you know, events, we can all hold each other accountable and high tides raise all boats. So

Debbie:
Yeah, wonderful. And I’m sure you’re very, I can tell you’re probably an amazing speaker too. So bring Kirsten into your community. Thank you so much. Super great conversation. I really enjoyed it. And yeah, I just appreciate everything you shared today.

Kirsten Jones:
Thank you. This has been so fun.