James Guttman on Becoming the Father His Autistic Son Needed

Debbie:
Hey James, welcome to the podcast.

James Guttman:
Debbie, thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Debbie:
When I heard about your book, it’s called Hi World, I’m Dad. And I heard about it from your publisher, Jessica Kingsley Publishers. We often don’t hear the perspective of dads raising neurodivergent kids, right? So you’re going to represent all of them today. No, but I do want to hear about your experience. So would you mind just kind of telling us a little bit, I know your book is about your story, so we don’t have to go into too much detail, but kind of just explain maybe to start why you wanted to write this book, the lens that you’re coming to this with.

James Guttman:
Okay, yeah, I, so I’m a father, I have two kids. My daughter’s 17 years old, she’s neurotypical. Usually that’s the one when I tell people about my kids, they’re like, ooh, that’s hard. I have a non-verbal son, they’re like, yeah, but you have a 17 year old daughter. So my two kids are both very unique, they’re both my two favorite people in the world. I tell my daughter, I have a million people in my life that I have a relationship similar to yours, and you are my favorite one, and Lucas, I have no relationship with anybody else in the world like him and he is the most unique favorite person I have. So I’m lucky to be able to say that I love both my kids equally and I get my number one, both number one in my life. Lucas started getting diagnosed with autism, or actually I should say the signs started coming up around early, like one and a half. We noticed when he couldn’t do tummy time. He couldn’t even lift his head. They told us he had low tone and I was stressed constantly. It was nonstop for about a year and a half. And as I tell in the book, and I tell sometimes when I speak, you know, different places, I thought about it constantly until the day I had a heart attack in 2012, December 13, 2012. And I found that I needed a quintuple bypass that night. I went to the hospital, I had the surgery, I thought I was going to die. And I noticed that after a few days, I had missed my kids and I hadn’t thought about autism at all and the worries and the concerns. And I felt silly, I was like, I’m so worried about this kid, but he’s my son and I love my son and if he can talk or if he doesn’t, it doesn’t matter, I just wanna see him. Went back to the house and I’ll never forget the day it happened, I was sitting on my couch and he was playing with a toy, he had a toy phone and he would take it by the string and he would pull it out from under the couch and watch it in the mirror as it went back and forth under the couch. I’m like, what is he doing? And for the first time I went over to him and I didn’t say, Lucas, we go, hello, ring ring, you’re doing it wrong. I let it be and I looked at him, and he gave me the string and I did it myself. And I did it the same way he did. I watched in the mirror to figure it out and he gave me a hug. And it was like such a moment where I was like, I felt like it was the first time for this poor kid that people weren’t telling him how to do things that he was doing already. And they were showing an interest in how he does it. And from that day on, I’ve tried to do that. I’ve tried to enter his world, understand him. And once you do that, once you build that bond with a kid like Lucas, I’m like, I deal with every single thing that you’re telling me that is so hard, but he’s worth it. And I think of him as a person, I don’t think of it as the work that I have to do for him. And the whole point of this book is to remind people that when you hear a story about a parent who has a child with severe autism, your mind might go to the difficulties of it, but at the end of the day, the positives and the things that his personality gets from having autism are widely, I don’t say ignored, but not understood. There’s a lot of positives that come out of a personality like that. He’s a pure soul.

Debbie:
I appreciate you sharing that story too, about the heart attack that you had in 2012. And that was harrowing to read about what you experienced. And that was such a wake up call for you. That shifted things, right? That was a moment where your relationship changed and the way you thought about your child changed. Can you talk a little bit about the way that you, especially as a dad, navigated your identity as the parent of a child who had these additional support needs, who was probably widely misunderstood by so many people that you were interacting with on a regular basis.

James Guttman:
I think as a dad, one of the things that I felt always set me apart, and I think different dads can speak differently to this, I was the type of person, I never needed my kids to be anything. I’ve achieved a lot of the things that I love. I was writing before he was born. I spent 15 years in professional wrestling. I’ve worked for different wrestling companies. I had two books come out. So I had achieved a lot of my writing dreams. So I never needed my son to be a writer. I didn’t need him to play soccer or basketball. I just needed him to be him. But still, when things started happening, I was concerned, how do I answer these questions? Because people ask you questions about your newborn, about your toddler. Does he like school? Is he excited about Santa? Does he know it’s his birthday? I had no answers for anybody. So I would not be embarrassed, but embarrassed for myself. Like, what kind of dad am I that I don’t know if my kid likes school? And people would ask me these questions. And as a perpetual waiting game, when you have a nonverbal child, they keep telling you, just wait, just wait, so you’re perpetually waiting and worrying and wondering about it. It didn’t so much define me, but it made me feel like a failure for not knowing him. And it made me feel like a failure for not having answers for people. And the day that I was able to finally say autism out loud and accept it, and in many ways eventually appreciate it, it was so freeing to be able, the first time that we went to the supermarket and we were checking out and the cashier said hello to him and we both didn’t stare at him and wait for him to say something back. I used to go, maybe this will be the moment. Maybe he’s been waiting for a cashier to say hello and he’ll say hello back. And I can just turn to her and go, he’s not gonna say hello, nonverbal. And it’s not a sad thing, it’s a fact. It’s just how it is. Hey, Lucas, you can wave and he’ll wave. He starts to embrace the things that he can do as opposed to really focusing on what he can’t do. So that became my goal to show people what he can do and show them who he was as opposed to letting them focus on, he doesn’t say anything. He doesn’t need to say anything.

Debbie:
I was talking before I hit record that a majority of people that I interact with in my community here at Tilt or who are part of my, you know, membership community are moms who are playing that kind of role. So, you know, again, you’re not representing all dads here in this conversation, but I would love to, did you have a sense of, I don’t know if denial’s the right word, what was it that kind of shifted to be able to just say matter of factly to that person at the grocery store, yeah, my child isn’t gonna speak to you like that, it is what it is, but it sounds like before that, there was a part of you that was still kind of like wanting to, I mean, so many parents want to kind of get their kids back on this path that we think is the right path or the more typical path for a human.

James Guttman:
But I think early on especially, you’re still under that concern of like, maybe my kid is meant to talk and I’m doing something wrong. I’m missing the component. I’m missing what I should be doing for him. And that’s perpetual, I was always worried about that. What key element am I missing? But as time goes on, eventually it’s like, no, this is my kid. And for me to keep wishing for something else is almost like taking away from him. Like I’ve always been surprised, especially I’ve written an op-ed for the Huffington Post about the idea that I don’t want a cure for my son’s autism. Meaning that, you know, I want him to learn naturally, I want him to do things, but if you took away autism from him tomorrow, he’ll be a different kid, and I don’t want that. And some people are surprised by it, and I’m thinking, how come the rest of the world gets to love their child unconditionally? I’d never change my kid. They don’t want to change their kids, but my kid, who’s a joy. And the only thing about him is he doesn’t have words. I’m looked down upon because I don’t want to fix him or change him. No, I love my son. And I think that was the thing that really, you know, for me became the element that I wanted people to know about. I don’t want people to feel bad for me, for this boy that I love. I want people to know who he is. And I always said, I felt like if people really knew who he was, I feel so disingenuous to accept any sort of pity for him because he’s wonderful. You know, I wouldn’t change him, you wouldn’t change him. If you knew him, you’d love him.

Debbie:
Yeah. You talked about the situation you had in the grocery store. I just wanted to go into that a little bit more. You talk about that experience of being judged in public spaces, especially before you had language for what was really happening. And I’m just wondering, do you think there are aspects of that that are uniquely complicated for dads?

James Guttman:
Yeah, although I will tell you this, I was surprised and I don’t know if maybe it’s a time period we’re in, maybe it’s the spread of awareness. I know a lot of people, there’s always been this debate about autism awareness versus acceptance. That’s why I like to preach autism appreciation. I feel like that’s the one thing we can all kind of get on board with. It’s important for people to be aware of what he is and what his stims are and that he’s not being naughty. So autism awareness has helped us out. But as a dad, when I first found out that he had delays is what I thought at first, I thought I had to fight everybody. I was ready to go out and just, I’m from New York and I would walk around, I would look at people and looking for people to look at him like, am I gonna fight today? And it has never happened. I actually have a story I’ve told a million times about seeing a boy in the window on Father’s Day at a restaurant we were at, and he’s staring at Lucas and I could see him out of the corner of my eye kind of laughing. And then I see his family laughing. I’m like, I’m gonna kill this family on Father’s Day. And I look up and it turns out that the kid also looked like he had autism. He had the identical iPad that my son had and that’s why he was laughing and clapping and watching. And almost like symbolic, I don’t know, it’s because I like to write and I kind of look for the narratives and things, but it felt like when I finally stopped, like kind of looking out of the corner of my eye and I looked dead on at somebody, I could see that we’re not as different as I thought, they were just like us and we weren’t alone. But that I think is the concern. I think a lot of dads, but me as a dad and masculinity at my age and things like that, I come from that place of, don’t mess with my family, you don’t mess with my kid. And if somebody says something mean, I’m gonna go after them. And he’s the most vulnerable type of person, but I’ve been lucky. I find that when people see me with him and they know that I’m attending to his needs, I’m not letting him scream and just going like, what do you guys want from me? Cause then people come over, let me help you out. No one does that, they see. I’ll sit on the floor with him in a restaurant. If he has a meltdown, I sit in the middle of crowded places. People walk around us and nobody’s ever said a word because I guess they figure, well, this is what he does. He’s got his kid. It’s gonna make people respect you and kind of understand that, you know, I’m not gonna disturb you, but then don’t disturb us. You know, that was the big concern that dads have. They wanna make sure that they protect the people they love and sometimes people can’t handle.

Debbie:
Yeah. Again, you shared that story in the book too. And that was so relatable. Cause I think, you know, I used to be very aware of looks or things that, you know, were aimed at my child’s direction. I’d be like, who are you looking at? Who are you talking to? What are you, you know? And I really had to learn, like, a lot of people have stuff going on. And that was something I taught my kiddo too, you know, like, I bet that kid is neurodivergent too and really struggles. So just pulling back that lens of uncentering ourselves in some ways can be really helpful. And I want to talk a little bit more about the judgment from other people. And you do write really candidly about anger, the protectiveness in those early years and how you really wanted to protect your child. If we again, I’m going to think about a gendered perspective, perhaps, do you think that that’s an especially challenging thing for dads who have a child that kind of isn’t showing up in a typical way in terms of again, going back to identity and what you kind of assumed your role would be or who you would be as a father?

James Guttman:
A little bit. I will say that a little bit. I think, if I’m being honest with you, and I know sometimes I get heat for this because it’s, in many ways as a dad, I should be trying to defend, well, it is what it is. I think the bar is very low for dads for some reason. And I, you saw in the book too, I told a story, I think it was a teacher or a nurse, someone had said to me like, oh, it’s very good that you’re here. Some dads can’t accept that their child has autism. And I’m like, what does that even mean? She’s like, well, like, they leave their family? She’s like, well, yeah. I’m like, well, I’m not gonna leave my family. Is that where the bar is? It’s so low that these mothers who, and you hear so many single moms raising these kids and how difficult it is, and for the dads, if they just show up, everyone is shocked. And I would rather get less applause for the things I do and have more of the other dads held accountable for not being there when they should be. You know, I went, my son was in a special education program in a mainstream school. I knew all the moms, I knew maybe one dad. And I think it’s a matter of, is it difficult? Yeah, but I think it’s difficult for both parents. And I think that women know that too. And I’ve talked to moms, I get emails from people who read the blog. It’s difficult, it’s a difficult situation for everybody. And I think if you’re gonna bring a kid into the world, Lucas didn’t ask to be born, I brought him here. And when I did, and when you kind of make that decision, you tell yourself all of this child’s challenges, I’m gonna help him through it. Because I made the decision to bring him here. If he came out and he had, you know, paralysis, anything like that, it would be my responsibility to kind of help him through life. So I do get kind of that old John Wayne mentality of like, you you need your kid, but like I said, I don’t need him to do anything. Just be who he is. He ended up being everything I wanted. He’s kind, he’s sweet, he’s loving, all the things that you ask for your child to be before they’re born. And because of that, I haven’t had any reason to not be there for him. And I think a lot of dads need to remember that. It’s not only your responsibility, it’s your number one responsibility. Daddy issues, we all know what daddy issues are. So now that you’re the daddy and you don’t do something, you know what you’re creating. You’re creating daddy issues for everybody around you.

Debbie:
I’d love to talk a little bit more about kind of, you said you’re often the only dad in the room, or, you know, when you go to a music class or you go to these different things with your kids or in the school community. I’m curious to know what other things, whether you got pushback from the community. You said that bar was really low. That was probably surprising. Were there any other surprises or pushbacks that you encountered in those environments?

James Guttman:
I did a few times. I remember one that I’ve talked about before. I had joined this Facebook texting group. I barely use Facebook. I use it for the blog and things like that. But I wanted to make sure I didn’t miss anything from my son for like the school, you know, for the teacher presents or whatever. This one mom would not, she was running the group, would not stop beginning every group message with hello ladies. And there was six of us. And the first time I’m like, hey, I would put a little wave of the hand. Remember me? Every week, hello ladies. I’m like, what is that? And I would say something to her. And then eventually I just left and she had told somebody, well, he knew it was a mom’s group. And I’m like, I’m not there. I’m not trading recipes. I’m there just to find out about my kid and what needs to be done. And I always said, like, I think a lot of people, they applaud involved fathers on paper until it’s kind of there. And I don’t know. I think in some cases, I don’t know, maybe I’m trying to figure it out on my own. I try to read into things sometimes. I don’t know if sometimes people feel like, you know, if they’re married and their husband isn’t doing something, so they resent when they see somebody else doing it, they can’t understand it, whatever the reason happens to be, whether it’s just my gender or not, I think we really should welcome more dads in. I think it’s the responsibility of everybody. And I’m hoping, you know, in this generation, whether I love about, you know, the Gen Z or whatever they’re called now, Gen Alpha, I don’t even know anymore, they’re starting to get rid of gender roles. And like, I’m big, I hold doors, I buy flowers, I like to do like some of the old school stuff, but I like the idea that going forward, men could be held just as responsible as women, they would get treated the same way, they’d be allowed to parent their kids on the level where it’s not weird. I’m a guy, I’ve worked with kids before and I know that sometimes people get strange with guys just doing anything with kids and kind of hoping we can get away from that.

Debbie:
Well, back to you’re talking about some of these spaces, you’d be the only dad in the room. And you mentioned that a lot of those spaces are structured around kind of like super, what would it look like? How do you think spaces could be more inclusive in an authentic way of dads? Like not being performative, but actually really make a welcome environment for fathers to participate.

James Guttman:
Honestly, I don’t even have an answer for that. I know that the things that would make me feel sometimes out of place, I mean, simply just the time that they spent together. Like what you’re describing is an idea that this space would always welcome dads. And I think sometimes by me showing up, these women had already been doing so many things together for so long and they would talk and they would have these shared connections and they weren’t welcoming. If I was a new woman in the group, it would be hard for me to be a part of it. But as a man now, I don’t even know. I mean, I don’t watch the TV shows that a lot of them watch. I didn’t do a lot of the activities they did. I don’t drink wine. I don’t like whatever it is that they’re talking about. So sometimes I felt out of place in that respect, I was there for my son. So I would focus on him. I think maybe if some of these things were a little more focused on the kids, I think sometimes we get together and we think it’s a parenting thing, but it’s really kind of a support group for the parents for each other. And that for a dad sometimes can be out of, you show up for your child, and next thing you know, you’re kind of the out of place adult in the room and they’re all there for each other. And you’re like, this isn’t what I thought it was. So that might be it. But just in general, the acceptance of it, the idea that it’s not weird that he’s here and it’s not something to be applauded or to be brought up every two minutes about how great it is to see an involved dad. Like, bizarre.

Debbie:
Yeah. And I want to talk to you about the sense of isolation. Like that is an issue for so many parents raising neurodivergent kids, especially when we’re early on in our journeys and we’re discovering this information, we can feel isolated and overwhelmed. And again, with so little support being directed specifically at dads, can we talk about that a little bit more, how that lack of community for dads can impact mental health and can lead to an increased sense of isolation. I just would love to know your thoughts on that. And if you see pockets of hope or people who are doing it right, organizations that do support dads.

James Guttman:
I think as my son has gotten older and as we’ve kind of found his place, I’ve felt a little more welcomed. I don’t know if it’s just because the older that a child gets, the more people accept it, the more the dads come out a little bit. But I noticed at his new school, we had a birthday party and there were dads there and there were moms there. But even like there were aides there, there were men. So it felt much more inclusive than when he was little. I think one of the issues is that for any young children, whether it’s preschoolers, kindergartners, elementary school kids, typically it’s the moms who are part of that. So if you have a kid who is on the autism spectrum or if you have a neurotypical kid, you’re gonna have the exact same kind of environment where it’s moms there and they’re baking cookies and they’re doing things. So to show up as a dad, sometimes it’s a little out of place, but like anything, I think if you wait long enough, you eventually find a place where you belong. And I think it’s been, as he’s gotten older, it’s gotten much easier than when he was younger. I don’t know any organizations that are necessarily making it better. There’s a Challenger program that they do over here for sports where they bring in kids who some have disabilities, some have different types, physical, kids on the spectrum. They’ll then play baseball, they’ll play kickball, and there’s just guys there too. Yeah, I don’t know, I’m hoping that the fact that I am not really seeing as much tells me that we’re making some changes. It’s definitely even since he was a baby, I’ve seen just a change, not only in how things have been, but what I expected when he was first diagnosed to see versus what I see now. So knock on wood, we’re getting there.

Debbie:
There is progress being made for sure slowly, but it’s happening. Would you benefit from, or do you think dads would benefit from connection? I’m just thinking about this, there’s so many articles and listened to podcast episodes about how men even struggle with having close male friends as opposed to women, right? They tend to have bigger, closer friend groups. And I’m just wondering, would you benefit from or do you have now a couple of dads who are also raising autistic or neurodivergent kids that have become part of your support system?

James Guttman:
Surprisingly I don’t. I don’t have dads who have neurodivergent kids. I have friends who have kids. I was younger, you know, obviously the younger days we had friends like crazy. But as you get older as a guy, it gets harder and harder. I have friends who are, you know, arms length friends. People that I’ll talk to on text or people I’ll see. Once in a while I have two good friends that I’ll see every now and then but even them, you know, you see them when you can. I try to tell people that too. They’ll ask me. I’m like, well, you know, I’m a guy so I see them when I see them. I don’t know. For me, it’s, I like to talk to my friends. I don’t really feel a need to meet up with them, but there was a time in my life, especially when he was younger, when I was going through the surgery, I was going through all that, where I definitely could have used more people there, support people to show up. I think for most men, if you have somebody in your life, a guy that you know, a guy that you’re friends with, when things are really difficult, I think that’s when you should really reach out and see how they’re doing. And I try to do that now. If I have a friend who’s going through something stressful, dealing with family issues or whatever, I’ll check in and I’ll ask, how are you? Do you need anything? What can I do? Just because I’m aware of it now. But I think that that’s the idea. I think it’s the kind of thing where men are expected sometimes to just handle things on their own. So that doesn’t mean they should. Just because I can get through it on my own doesn’t mean I have to get through it on my own. And hopefully we can help each other through some of that.

Debbie:
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Thank you for going to that little rabbit hole with me, but I’m just super curious about that. Okay, I will pivot and do a few more questions before we wrap up. And I’m curious because you are the single dad of two kids, as you mentioned, you have a neurotypical daughter who’s 17. And yes, a 17 year old daughter, I mean, I love teens and there can be a lot of moving pieces with an emerging young adult. But you are very intentional about making sure that your daughter isn’t kind of the helper or the responsible one. I also know that just the sibling dynamic in kind of mixed neurotype families can be really tricky. So could you talk a little bit about how you navigate that and what their relationship is like?

James Guttman:
I am very aware of it. I want to make sure that when the day comes, like my goal, it sounds silly as a parent, but we all know it, my goal is for my kids to be here without me one day. And when that day comes, I want her to see him as someone that she loves and she cares about. And that’ll allow her to make decisions that need to be made for him with his best interest at heart. And I think people, they see that differently. People will say to me, well, does she know that one day she’s gonna have to do this and she’s gonna have to do that? I’m like, well, I’m not gonna present it like that because that’s just gonna make it sound terrifying. Who’s gonna wanna do that? But at the end of the day, if I’m gone and she has her brother and she loves him and she sees him as an equal and as somebody that she cares about, she’ll make the right decisions for him. I try to make sure that they treat each other like siblings. Like they play, we sit downstairs and she does it on her own. We’ll be watching TV and she’ll jump up and grab his iPad. He has a, not a communication iPad, but one with YouTube on it that he loves. She’ll take it from him and she’ll run around the room and he’ll chase her. And it’s adorable. I think I told the story in the book too. There was one time where he was getting into the car and he slammed the door and it hit her in the head. And she didn’t say anything. I saw it out of the corner of my eye. She didn’t say anything. She just got in the car. I could tell it hurt. And I was so proud of her. She didn’t yell at him. She knew that he wasn’t doing it on purpose. So I went out that day and I bought her a bracelet that said sister on it. And I had him give it to her later on that day because I wanted her to see just because he can’t talk, he still apologizes, he still didn’t mean to do it. And I appreciate what you did. And she could see that. And I’ve been really lucky that she’s mature beyond, beyond what I ever could have dreamed. Her grades are insane. She’s applying to colleges that, my God, I didn’t even think about it. And I’m very proud of who she’s become, both in terms of intellect in school, but also her emotional maturity. And I think she sees him for who he is and she accepts the things that he can’t change. And she also accepts that he’s somebody in her life and he’s always going to be there. And I do that by not making her do anything for him. She does things for him because she wants to, you know? There’ll be times where he’s upset and I’ll look at the camera in his room and she’ll be in there just sitting on his bed watching TV with him on her own. I just smile. I never tell her to go in there. I never tell her to do anything. She does it all on her own. It’s important.

Debbie:
Yeah, it sounds like they have a really nice relationship, which is not always the case at those ages. So that’s really awesome. So, you wrote about kind of envying almost your son’s just openness and joy in the way that he moves through the world and what you’ve learned from him. Could you talk a little bit about how he has changed you as a father, as a man, as a human.

James Guttman:
Wow, big time. I mean Lucas has, he’s taught me to just be me. Like one of the things about his autism that I think is so beautiful is that he feels his emotions 100%. Everything about him is real. This is the realest a person can be. So it’s almost like for the first time you get to see what happens when you rip the varnish off of somebody. When he’s happy, he’s happy. Like if he gets more excited over the same YouTube video that he’s seen a thousand times than I get over almost anything. He’ll jump in your face, he’ll clap, he’ll scream. I’m like, you’re right buddy. When he’s sad, he cries. He doesn’t fake a smile. He doesn’t pretend to like something so that he’ll endear himself to you. Nothing about this kid is false. And I watched this and I watched it play out and I’m so envious of the fact that he doesn’t care. If he’s excited and he claps and jumps in the street, there’s not a part of him that thinks to himself, like, is anyone going to stare at me? Doesn’t care. And that’s such a beautiful way to live your life. That’s the way I’ve always wanted to live my life. I think of all the things I could have done had I not had that wall that you put up on your own. He doesn’t have any walls. The capabilities that he has to just feel things and just be himself, I’m so envious of it. I want everyone to be like that. I feel like Lucas with no words is easier to understand than people with a million words that will gaslight you and talk in circles. Nothing duplicitous about this kid. He is straight up every time and it blows me away. I’m proud of him.

Debbie:
And has that changed the way you experience your own life in terms of, yeah, just having more freedom to be who you are.

James Guttman:
I am. I think the blog is an example of that. Like I started Hi Blog I’m Dad in 2017, February. I said before that I wrote about other things and I remember the first time I did it I was worried. I said I’m gonna write this and if people say something mean about my kid I’m gonna be so upset. And I wrote about him and no one said anything mean. And I remember being surprised by it. And since then, I’ve tried to always be as honest as possible when I write these in a way that, if I can go back in time 15 years and show this to myself, I’d be like, well, what are you doing, bro? It’s very opposite of who I used to be. And I credit him for that, the ability to just be like, look, this is my life. And I’m going to tell you what it is and you’re going to read it. And if you have something to say about it that I don’t like, I’m going to ignore it. And I do, I genuinely ignore it. Years ago, when I was younger, I would have thought about that, obsessed about it. It doesn’t matter to me. Like now we just live and just get through it. I’m proud.

Debbie:
Yeah. Well, let me name the book again. It’s called Hi World, I’m Dad, How Fathers Can Journey to Autism Awareness, Acceptance and Appreciation. And I will have links in the show notes page to your blog and to the book. Is there anywhere else that you would like people to connect with you?

James Guttman:
I have a podcast, Hi Pod I’m Dad. It’s a whole brand. It’s a whole thing. Hi, something I’m Dad. It’s that old joke that Dad, I’m hungry. Hi, hungry, I’m Dad. I always had to tell people that. Yeah, see, no one gets it. Hi Pod I’m Dad is everywhere. Spotify, it’s on Audible. The book is available on audio as well. And yeah, now I’m on TikTok. All my social media is hijamesguttman, H-I, like hijamesguttman. And check it out, drop me a line and I try to write back to everybody I can. I love doing this and I love hearing people’s stories. It means a lot to me.

Debbie:
That’s great. Well, thank you. I really appreciate you sharing today. Again, I think it’s really important that we hear from more dads who are navigating this journey. We don’t often have the chance to hear about things from a father’s perspective. So thank you again for this conversation.

James Guttman:
Thank you, Debbie. I appreciate it.