Mark Talaga on the Hidden Challenges of Giftedness in the Digital Age

Debbie:
Hey Mark, welcome to the podcast.

Mark Talaga:
Oh my gosh, thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

Debbie:
Yeah, I think this is gonna be an interesting conversation. When we first were communicating about it, I had in my mind it was gonna be one thing and the more I started thinking about it and learning more about your expertise, I was like, oh, we can go to some really interesting places and have a conversation that we haven’t had on the show yet. Before we get into it, I’ve already read your formal bio, but would you give a little bit of background about who you are and in this space and yeah, the lens through which you are doing your work.

Mark Talaga:
For sure. So I am the director and owner of the Center for Identity Potential. We’re in the metro Detroit area in Michigan. We have an office in Chicago as well. And our specialty is working with the gifted population. Twice exceptional, neurodivergent, asynchronous development cases that are maybe not so responsive to a typical therapeutic approach. And so we take a different way of looking at that and how we support and help them. My background is very strange and weird. I didn’t just decide I wanted to work with Gifted from a young age. I worked in video games for a long time where I was a producer and I had a love of that. I don’t play as much anymore, pretty busy, but yeah. So I have a lot of strange touch points in the Gifted world, but that is, you know, the work I love to do.

Debbie:
Well, let’s just to kind of level set, you know, I’ve done episodes on giftedness in the past and twice exceptionality, of course, but I just would love to know how you define giftedness when you talk about the population that you work with. What does it mean to be gifted?

Mark Talaga:
Yeah, and my definition is a little different than most. So it’s not a score, it’s not a number, it’s not academic prowess. It’s really some form of human development in the extreme. So there can be giftedness in your physicality and your artistic expression, in your sense of moral justice, in your emotional expression. Like it’s, to me, if you are way out of the norm on some level, you are in the gifted realm. And the only problem is that it typically comes with areas that are either in the normal average compared to the area you’re excelling in or there’s underdevelopment. So all of these gaps are really what create most of the issues that we’re trying to address in the therapeutic process.

Debbie:
Yeah. Also just say I’m celebrating the 10 years of Tilt this year. I’m doing a lot of, thank you, I’m doing a lot of reflection. I’m really just kind of looking back and seeing where we were as you know, the Neurodivergence Movement, but also where I was as a parent, what life was like for my kiddo and versus where we are today. So I’m curious to know kind of in a general sense, when you think about what it means to be a gifted kid right now, what to you seems to be kind of the most different compared to maybe 10 years ago or you know, because we are living in interesting times right now.

Mark Talaga:
For sure, to say the least. And what’s different now is because there’s so much exposure to what’s out in the world and how tantalizing it might be to be super impactful and famous and viral and having a platform and a presence online, I think for a lot of gifted kids who somewhere deep down recognize they’re capable of amazing things, they’re probably feeling more stuck than they have in decades past because again, the same issue still persists among the gifted individual. They have a sense of their potential, a sense of what they can do, but typically because of those gaps I talked about in a developmental profile, they may not always have the skill. And so more and more of these kids are like, well, I want to be a streamer online or I want to be a, you know, a programmer or this, that, and the other. But because the landscape is shifting, their ability to make that happen or how they do that or what they might need to protect their own vulnerabilities and their development becomes a lot more complicated. So, you know, the issues always existed, but now I think it’s just more prevalent, if that makes sense.

Debbie:
Yeah, I mean, so as you’re saying that. I mean, the word potential right is a loaded word, first of all, especially, you know, because our kids often know, our gifted kids often know or have heard about their potential this whole time. And so if they’re not thriving, that can feel like a big disconnect. And I think about identity, right? So a kid who is gifted, profoundly gifted, maybe their intelligence, if we’re talking about intellectually gifted has been a core piece of their identity, right? And so their ability to excel or to be strong in these areas that were maybe so far removed from their same age peers was pretty big. And I wonder if what’s happening now with access, as you said, to information, and then we have AI and, you know, is it kind of chipping away at any, I don’t know, edge, competitive edge or, you know, in terms of identity and, you know, what gifted kids kind of have going for them?

Mark Talaga:
Well, I probably have to go back a little bit just to the idea of identity and what we mean by that. So one of the things I always try to tell people, especially the kids, is you are not your identity. Identities are forms of expression of who you really are. And so we have multiple identities. Yes, you have an identity as a very smart kid who did well in school, but that’s not all that you are. You have values and things that you care about and dreams and fears and there are many things that you want to be and a lot of times gifted kids restrict themselves to specific identities. They limit themselves. So you have a kid who yes understands engineering like the back of their hand, but they’re also completely soft hearted, want to help other people, caring person. But that identity never got developed enough because it was so much focus on their ability and what they could do well. So going into the world, they’re kind of just going in with tunnel vision around, you know, I should only do these certain things or their culture says you should only do certain things or, you know, their family background, whatever it is. And so, you know, again, the gifted issue is the same as it ever was, is you have multiple identities, but they have to fit who you are. Cause I don’t believe in reaching potential. I think that’s a nonsense way to look at life. It’s how potential gets activated and it’s only really activated when we’re expressing ourselves through identities that fit our unique personal self. So all gifted kids are not created equal. And so, you know, for me, when I worked at video games, I was like, it’s my dream job. I was like, that’ll solve my problems. If I work in something I love, I won’t have any challenges. Hugely incorrect, because I got fired. I mean, that’s the reality of it. I got fired from it because my executive functioning was so garbage. And because I was just trying to focus on one aspect of what I thought I could do well. And then when I realized what I really care about is how to help others and I needed to learn how to do that, did I start to feel activated and engaged and start to develop some mastery? And so, yes, the landscape’s changing, but the problem’s still the same.

Debbie:
So we’ve talked about identity development in neurodivergent kids and how complicated it can be for a number of reasons, right? Because of masking, because of, you know, so many of our kids, especially our gifted kids, feel as if they don’t necessarily belong with their same age peers. And so they might try on different identities to see what matches. So when you work with kids and young adults and you’re thinking about identity development right now, what are ways that you encourage kids to explore identity? What are ways to kind of tap into that more authentic experience?

Mark Talaga:
So that’s a trickle in, because there’s a lot to it, right? And so in identity development, we actually have a tool that we use. It’s called the FIT model. And basically what it does is it takes every single system that that person or that kid is up against in life, their school system, their family system, their family of origin, their physiology, their religion, their whatever, all of it. And as we’re thinking about what identity is a fit for them, we wanna look at which of these systems are validating this identity, affirming it, and are you affiliating with others within that system, and does it meet your purpose in life? And so we really try to create a very organized, almost systematic way of helping somebody develop their identity, but it’s gotta start with, what do you wanna do in this world? And that’s sometimes the hardest question to get through before we even start to work on an identity. Because so many kids don’t want to say what they really want or they don’t feel like they should or they’re allowed to or they’ve been told that it’s not a good pathway for them. And so it’s a very convoluted emotionally charged process. But at the end of the day, we’re always looking at, you have strengths and you have vulnerabilities in your area of development. And we do a lot of assessment to know where those vulnerabilities are. And whatever identity you’re trying to build, and that you feel is important to you, you have to acknowledge that yeah, you have differences. You are deviant in a lot of ways in your life. And it’s not about how you fit into the norm. That’s not gonna activate your potential, because it’s not really you. But you do have to keep those vulnerabilities protected as you’re building up and how you connect and interact with others.

Debbie:
Okay, super interesting. And is the FIT model something that you guys have developed at the Center for Identity Potential?

Mark Talaga:
It was developed by Andy Mahoney, who was the founder of the center. I took over a few years ago, but Andy Mahoney created with some other colleagues of his, the idea of counseling to the gifted, like how you alter counseling to a gifted individual. And so his FIT model came out of that. And that’s part of our process.

Debbie:
Okay, so we’ve also, you know, in various episodes, and we spend a lot of time in my community talking about belonging, because we know that belonging is important. And we know that it’s also something that a lot of young people, especially gifted kids may struggle to find. And so, again, from your lens and the work that you do, how have you seen this idea of belonging shift in recent years, especially when so much of our kids’ social lives or most kids’ social lives are happening online and in digital spaces.

Mark Talaga:
Yeah. And again, I don’t dismiss online relationships. They can be very real. They can be a part of who you are. Typically we try to strip it down to where is the struggle with the idea of belonging. And it’s really about how you create a relationship that has some depth to it. And that comes from a place of emotional vulnerability at times. And a lot of gifted kids tend to be upstairs thinkers, right? They try to escape into the head. They’re analyzing, they’re trying to predict all this kind of stuff. And so they lose their feelings and their reactions and how to express them. And so we kind of strip it down to the important things. Do you know how to communicate? Do you know how to listen? If you want friends, learn how to listen. That’s as simple as it can get for any human being, but that can be especially hard for gifted people who, because their heads worked twice the speed and they’re 10 steps ahead or they’re struggling with some of the social pragmatic skills of understanding nuance and context or whatever it may be. But at the end of the day, what we do is we run a lot of groups at our practice, which is teaching pragmatic language skills. Can we slow them down enough to really listen and then learn how to react and how they’re relating to or not relating to something? And one of the rules we have in our group, which is a little odd that I tell people is we don’t allow them to ask questions. You have to say everything as a statement. Something you’re picking up on, something that you’re owning that is coming from you. And through that process of building these skills and how to really listen, they get better at learning where they belong and where they have impact and that they have value. But a lot of it comes down to skill, you know, and there’s this belief that I just need to be different or be interested in different things rather than the skill of listening to a person, having a reaction, sharing that, reflecting back to them what they’re hearing and that’s where connection comes from. But most kids skip over that. They don’t really learn that or at least explicitly learn that. And that is a huge problem for any gifted person who is trying to learn how to connect. They might think they’re a good listener, but when you really challenge it, they might not be.

Debbie:
So, all right, I’m gonna dig a little deeper here. I have a two-pronged question. So one is you mentioned you teach these kids to say statements as opposed to questions. So I wanna have some examples of that. And the second thing is that I would think that this is a challenge for all kids now, right? Like, because this is the reality of youth today. So, but let’s start with the statement. I’d love to hear an example of what you mean when you kind of explicitly teach that skill.

Mark Talaga:
Sure. So for example, somebody may be sharing something in the group and they say something like, yeah, and that made me really angry. And then every kid in that group is going to be like, why did it make you angry? And I’ll stop them and I’ll say, no, turn that into a statement. And a lot of them will be like, I don’t know what you mean. How do you do that? And I’ll say, say something like, I get the sense, or how would you phrase that? It’d be like, you know, I hear that you’re angry, but I’m struggling to understand what that’s about. Or I don’t seem to be able to connect to why you’re feeling angry. So you’re owning your reaction, what you’re picking up on. Questions are always rooted in a reaction, but then we kind of cloud it with this kind of interrogation approach. And unfortunately, that creates a power differential, right? I’m asking you to give me something rather than being a part of that with you. I’m so confused by your anger. I’m so like, I can’t wrap my head around it. That’s a more real reaction that will get that person talking at a much deeper level than if they’re just responding to these prompted questions.

Debbie:
Yeah, and I would think especially because we know a lot of our kids are also demand-avoidant and they may take any kind of a question like that as a threat, right? And so it is gonna shut things down. So that makes sense. Like, I find it interesting that you got so angry. I mean, that’s a high level skill too. So I imagined something that needs to be practiced. But let’s pivot to part two of my question. And that is, I think about the social lives of kids today in general. And I’m doing a lot of scaffolding, for example, of my kiddo who is away at university and I’m trying to do social scaffolding from here. None of these kids have good, all right, I shouldn’t say none. That’s a generalization. But many of these kids do not know how to just send a simple text and invite somebody to meet for a coffee or follow up or it’s just — I don’t understand how kids are learning this stuff if they’re not being really intentional and explicit about it.

Mark Talaga:
Exactly. Right. And you’re picking up on a couple of things. One is, yes, this is a human issue. Everything gifted is humanity just in some level of extreme. So it seems different. It seems other, it seems out there. It’s not, it’s all relatable. It’s all something every single person goes through just at different variations or extremities of it. So, you know, that’s a very important piece that I try to teach these kids. You’re not like some other alien, even if you feel that way. But at the same time, yeah, you’re talking about a kid like, okay, I just want you to text this person. It seems like the most simple thing in the world. But for that person, it’s so much more emotionally charged because they’re feeling like, am I gonna be a burden? What if they think I’m weird? What if this happens? What if that happens? Or even what if I’m successful and now I have to meet a demand of being there and showing up and will I do it right? And their mind goes crazy. So it’s again, it’s kind of stripping it back to the idea of let’s start with the basics. Do you wanna connect? Do you want to feel connected to others? Do you want that in your life? Because we’re not going to go any farther than that until there’s some recognition from you that it’s something that matters to you. And why does it matter? And why does it feel scary every time you approach that issue? And for a lot of kids, and this is painting with a broad brush, but it’s true, they have a little ego on them. And I don’t mind a little ego. Ego will take you far in life. But there’s some belief that I shouldn’t struggle with this. I shouldn’t have to have this be hard. And so they just, because they can’t get over that idea that maybe they’re not that good at it, or they haven’t learned how to do it, or they haven’t practiced it enough to feel comfortable with it, and to have confidence around it, that they just kind of stay stuck. And they don’t want to deal with it. And so a lot of it is challenging on some level of, I don’t believe that you won’t do it. There’s a possibility you can’t, because you’ve never been taught how to, it never felt natural to you. But we can’t, you know, so a lot of parents tend to sometimes get behavioral too quickly. Here’s the solution, here’s the fix, which is fine, right? Because that’s still the right answer. But there’s a skip over of that kid’s struggle and that it probably goes deeper for them than most people think. And so getting in touch with that sometimes is what, you know, removes the logjam of them being able to act.

Debbie:
Yeah, because you said it there when you asked, does this matter to you, right? So you’re tapping into the intrinsic motivation that this child has, or this kid has to connect with another human. So if you kind of start there, and if something’s getting in the way, it usually is a skill issue. They just don’t know how to do that. And you mentioned this idea of ego, and it made me wonder about growth mindset, fixed mindset. I don’t know if that’s a part of your work, but we know that a lot of gifted kids can struggle with, again, because of their intelligence and that competency being a core part of their identity that it could be a sign of weakness to admit that I don’t have these skills.

Mark Talaga:
Absolutely. And so, yeah, it’s not been developed a growth mindset of what it means to be okay with, you know, not being able to do something and then learning how to accept feedback from that. And having that feedback not appear as a critique, because this is where the sensitivities of a gifted person can be a real challenge. Because they’re so sensitive to judgment and critique and feeling like that says something about them as a person. Yeah, they’re more in line to be in a fixed mindset in certain contexts of their life. And in other areas, they’re probably great with growth and have no problem with it. So what I typically try to tap into in those moments when they’re really fixed is how much it matters to them. And that, yes, even though this is a loaded word, that there’s a lot of potential there. Otherwise you wouldn’t care. If you didn’t know somewhere deep inside that you could do something really well, like reach out or be connected or be a good friend, you wouldn’t care. You’d be like, well, that’s not important to me. It doesn’t matter. But if it really bothers you and you’re fixed about it, it has to be a certain way and I have to have rules around it. It’s you’re struggling with the idea of how much it matters to you and that it goes deep.

Debbie:
Okay, let’s kind of zoom out again. And I know that you spend a lot of time with gifted youth and tricky times in the world, as we have already said, and I’m just wondering, what do you notice in terms of the anxiety, the existential awareness or just stress that these kids might be carrying in these really uncertain times? What are you seeing?

Mark Talaga:
I’m seeing a lot of that, a lot of anxiety, a lot of stress, a lot of carrying the world’s problems on their shoulders. And again, because gifted kids and adults tend to be able to make connections and recognize patterns very quickly, and because it’s in their face all the time, they can’t help but see patterns of things that are very scary or things that are gonna be a problem later on. And it’s a skill to be able to do that. It’s an area of strength to be able to make those kinds of connections. But I think what gifted people struggle with the most is they stay too macro and they don’t go down to the micro. Meaning the struggle and the bigger picture of what they’re up against, feeling helpless against the world, I can almost guarantee you if we zoom in into their individual life, that issue still exists. It’s still a similar pattern somewhere. But where do they have more control? Do they have more control in the micro or the macro? Well, it’s the micro, but then they have to face making change in their actual day-to-day life with their relationships or family within themselves of how do I make shifts and how do I start to see patterns and how do I have a sense of control over something that’s in front of me? So it’s kind of this, when I hear gifted kids talking about the macro, I don’t dismiss it. I think it’s very observant of them and important and they’re afraid. But if I can connect to how it actually manifests in the same way somewhere in their actual life, there’s a lot more progress to be made there on what they’re really up against.

Debbie:
Yeah, sticking within their locus of control. I was thinking about a conversation I had with Dr. Ross Green recently for the show and you know his most recent book is called The Kids Who Are Not Okay. And we talked about, you know, the very first chapter of his book is talking about just all the things that today’s kids are growing up with and specifically access to information. And I was sharing that, you know, yeah, when I was growing up, I, unless I watched, you know, Tom Brokaw on the nightly news, like I didn’t know what was going on, right? I totally dating myself there. But yes, it is true. You know, if I had access to this like constant barrage of, you know, what’s happening in the world and global strife, and it is so intense. And I’m just wondering, you know, of course, kids can’t control that. Do you advise the students that you work with, the youth that you work with to really set limits on how much they access that and consume that content? The toll on these especially sensitive kids, these intense kids who feel things so deeply it breaks my heart to think about what it must be like inside of their heads.

Mark Talaga:
Well, absolutely. And again, just as human beings, we’re not meant to consume information at that volume and at that speed. It’s too much. And what do you do with it? It just becomes overwhelming. And so where it’s developmentally appropriate, yes, you have to help a gifted kid understand that they have a vulnerability around that, that there’s an area where they can’t emotionally regulate themselves through it or make sense of it in a way that has some meaning to them. And yes, there probably needs to be some sort of protection. But you have kids that maybe don’t have that awareness or can’t do that for themselves. And yeah, maybe the parents have to be like, yeah, we’re not okay with this. This is not how it’s gonna be in our house because we can see the effect that it’s having. But at the same time, there’s this little note in what we’re talking about that is pretty pervasive and it’s kind of maybe a little challenging to hear, but there’s a victimhood in all of it. This idea that, you know, they’re suffering and it’s so hard for them and it’s so difficult and there’s truth in it. But at the same time, we’ve got to be careful because it removes their ability to feel like no matter what happens on some level, there’s a way for me to get help around it, support it, I can deal with it. And so I’m always careful to make sure that a person’s not so focused on themselves that it’s all about how things are hard for them, but instead about where they have locus of control and what they really know about themselves and how it’s related to great things about them, that they are sensitive. They do have a big heart. They do care. They do have this value system that’s important to them. So, but I’m never really gonna go into that place where they need to be rescued from something in a sense.

Debbie:
Yeah, no, I appreciate you saying that, it makes total sense. So okay, I want to ask one more kind of bigger question. Thinking about AI, which I, you know, before we hit record, I shared that my kiddo is a computer science major. And, you know, AI is, we know what it’s doing to a lot of different careers. And so not just in programming. And so I’m wondering, in your experience or from your lens, how is it influencing how gifted kids might think about their own intelligence or things like creativity or originality? Like, what are you noticing?

Mark Talaga:
Well, I think a lot of people in the gifted world are either loving or hating AI. It seems to be a very obviously split. And, you know, I hate to compare it to anything else that exists, but it is like, you know, when the internet came out or how video games can become a problem for some people, it’s how you use it and it’s with what intention. And if you’re using something like AI to support an area of vulnerability, like for me, like when I’m writing, I need to be very organized and I’m bad at it. I can do it, but it is an enormous amount of stress for me to do it to the point where like, I don’t want to. And so I intentionally use AI to help me with that so that I can do the thing that I love to do, things that I care about. And a lot of gifted kids maybe are over utilizing it or instead of going out there and making a friend, they’re befriending a chatbot, you know, language learning model that they feel like they’re being seen by when in reality they’re just teaching it how to see them and they’re just seeing themselves and talking with themselves on some level. But it’s like anything. It’s how you use it. Your intention is what matters. Like I have a rule in my house with my kids. I have a nine year old and six year old and I love to play video games with them. We have a lot of fun doing that. But I have a rule where video games are supposed to be entertainment and fun. And the second they stop serving that purpose, they go off. So if we’re having a good time and we’re playing together, guess what? We can keep playing for the allotted time we set. But if they’re getting frustrated and they’re yelling at each other and fighting occurs, it’s gone because the intention is no longer there. It’s not being served. Same thing with social media. What’s your intention when you’re using social media? Do you have one? Or is it like opening the fridge because you know you’re hungry, looking at it, and then just closing the door again? Everything is about your intention behind it and what you’re utilizing it for. But when we don’t have conscious awareness of why we’re interacting with something, yeah, it can become dangerous. And I think for gifted people, they might not want to think about it in that way. But again, it’s a human issue really at the end of the day.

Debbie:
Mm hmm. Yeah. And I think, you know, you just saying like, engaging with social media, like opening up the refrigerator. I mean, I think that’s probably something most every listener can relate to. Right? Not just about our kids. Yeah. Okay, so we’re gonna wrap up but I’d love to know for parents who are listening to this who have gifted, PG, 2e kids who are concerned about their kids because of the intensity of their experience. What would you want them to kind of really know about how they can best show up for their kids in this day and age in this unique time?

Mark Talaga:
Yeah. So, you know, as with anything, you know, what I like to tell people is, you know, for this population, the simplest complex and the complex is simple. And so, you know, when you’re working with something as simple as, you know, they should know that, you know, using that much AI is bad for them or using, you know, social media in that way or whatever they’re consuming is too much. That’s probably true. They intellectually know it, but the complicated nature of what it takes to help them understand where their values are lying and what it would really take for them to self-monitor and self-regulate and make those choices for themselves is probably more intense than you might think. And when you’re feeling stuck as a parent on how to help, I always say you go back to assessment. You’re missing something. There’s something more about what you’re trying to help with that is not yet on the table or being talked about. And it’s okay to make the problem seem more and more complex with all these different pieces, because once you have it all out there, then your brain starts to say, okay, I think we know how to proceed, or now I’m starting to realize what I was missing about how hard this is for you, or whatever the example is.

Debbie:
Yeah, that’s a great answer. I mean, we talk a lot about just being curious. And there’s always a reason, right? There’s always something going on underneath the surface. And we may think we know what’s going on. But unless we really take a pause and start getting curious about what might really be happening for our kids and ask them and have conversations with openness, we might completely miss the point. So that’s a great reminder. So before we say goodbye, is there a place that you would like listeners to check out your work and connect with you?

Mark Talaga:
Sure. You can always find us at the centerforidentitypotential.com. We have a lot of resources on there, some books and articles and videos. And if you feel like maybe the problem you’re up against in life needs a little support, you can always reach out to us. We’re happy to help. You could also find me on the Hopelessly Gifted podcast, where I talk about a lot of these issues on a granular level. But I typically try to make episodes around common issues that parents of gifted kids or the gifted world are facing. And you can find that on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Debbie:
Perfect. Okay. Well, thank you and listeners. As always, I will have links in the show notes page where you can connect with Mark and his podcast. And Mark, thank you so much for everything you shared today. It was a really fascinating conversation.

Mark Talaga:
That was my pleasure. Thank you.