The Real Work of Parenting Neurodivergent Young Adults (Part 3)

Debbie:
Hey there, Penny. Welcome back to my podcast.

Penny Williams:
Hey Debbie, always good to see you.

Debbie:
Same. And this is an episode that we are continuing. We started it last fall, I believe, and we did a special part. We thought it was going to be it. We were going to do a two parter on launching young adults. And then we only got halfway through our outline for those two episodes. And so now we are following up and doing part two of the two parter. So really parts three and four. So if that’s not confusing enough, I’m just going to say this for listeners. So we, Penny and I, recorded two episodes in the fall. The first part was on till parenting. The second part followed two days later on Penny’s podcast, beautifully complex. And we’re doing the same thing again. So as you’re listening to this today, this is part three and two days later. You can go to the Beautifully Complex podcast and hear the part four. And I guess it’s to be determined if there will be additional episodes after this, but we’ll see what we can get through in these today. So yeah, so anyway, that was a long-winded welcome. Anything you want to share or say before we dive in?

Penny Williams:
Yeah, I think this conversation about parenting young adults who are neurodivergent maybe never ends. That’s what came up as you were talking about it. Like maybe this conversation never quite ends, but that’s growth, right? We’re on a journey.

Debbie:
That is growth. We are on a journey, a thousand percent. And I’m sure since we recorded this, our lives have changed and our kids have changed and the things that we are navigating have changed. So yeah, we probably could continue doing installments of this, but let’s see what we can get through today. So what we’re gonna do today is talk a little bit about some kind of logistical things that we might be navigating that we really didn’t touch upon in the first two installments of this and kind of get a little more granular because I think parents are feeling just really curious about, well, how did you handle this? How did you handle this? And we may not hit everything that you guys listening are curious about. And of course, you can send us emails if you want to, if you have more specific questions that we can talk about in a future installment. But I thought we could start today by talking about money and logistics because I think this is really, it’s tricky with money because there are all these kind of societal expectations about, you know, what our kids should be able to do by a certain age or contributing. And then there’s the reality of where they are, what they’re ready for. Then there’s our financial situations as adults, parenting young adult kids. So it’s kind of complex. So I actually just would love to hear for you, maybe even going back, is financial literacy something that you guys talked about when your kids were younger? How have you navigated conversations around money and finances?

Penny Williams:
Yeah, I think I have always been a little bit focused on having conversations around money because when I became a young adult, I used credit a lot, we will say, and I dug a hole just trying to measure up to my friends like do the same things they could afford to do and I would just put it on credit and then you know it took me years to dig out of that hole and so I learned the hard way some financial lessons that I really wanted my kids to have and here in our high school we have a personal finance course it is not a requirement it’s just an elective but I made, I’m going to say made here because I did, I forced my both my kids to take it because I really wanted them to understand how to avoid some of the pitfalls but also how to really be financially secure which is something that as a self-employed person, we have struggled with in this house, off and on for years. And so, I kind of wanted to pave a little easier path, maybe. and you know, some things stick, some things don’t. I have a very impulsive neurodivergent young adult who has always really struggled with spending habits. Every penny. It doesn’t even like rest in the pocket. It just keeps going. It goes straight in and straight out always and still to this day that is happening with paychecks. And my neurodivergent kid lives at home and is working on determining what does the career path look like? What do I want to do? What do I want for myself in life? Where do I want to be? Who do I want to have around me? You know, all the things we’re still trying to figure out and explore. And so, you know, there is no need to keep money and pay bills, but yet I am stressing because I want to teach that lesson, right? And I can’t control my child’s money. I don’t have control over that situation. All I can do is, if I’m being honest, plead and beg every two weeks when paychecks come in. And we’re just trying to navigate that. So much of this, and I think we talked about this in our first couple of episodes on the topic, is really a different timeline than we would expect. It’s a stretch. We’re stretching. all of the skill development, we’re stretching the timeline of when they’re ready to have more independence, right? Like my kid still isn’t driving and just last week. came to me and asked me if we could practice, which has never happened. I have always been the one for years, like, hey, if you want to be independent, you should practice driving. And just wasn’t ready. And we had to be OK with that. So I think a lot of this is like, when are they ready? Where’s the timing? And it can’t be our timing. It has to be their timing, which is very hard.

Debbie:
Yes, the lesson we continue to learn over and over again. And before we go any further, I’m just going to just go back for a moment, because we talked about this in the first couple of episodes. But we are going to do our best to really respect our young adults’ privacy and their lived experience. So we’ll focus mostly on what we are struggling with and how we’re navigating this. And at the same time, you know, it’s within the context of raising these kids. And as Penny shared her neurodivergent young adult is at home and is working. My neurodivergent young adult is not living at home currently and is finishing up a second year of university in another country. So we’re, we’re dealing with kind of the same types of know realities for what our kids need to know but we’re also doing it in different ways so I just wanted to put that out there. But I have some follow-up questions about the money stuff. First of all I think it’s so cool that your school had that class and I had a similar you know personal story of like all the credit cards you know I remember them having credit card signups out front of the bookstore at Penn State. And I was like, oh, sign me up. I am so down for that. And I also was someone who worked three jobs in high school and two jobs. I wanted to have revenue, money, so that I buy the things I wanted to buy when I was in college and a young adult. So you, your kiddo had that kind of foundation and you mentioned that he’s impulsive and kind of the, the straight in straight out. And that’s kind of what’s going on. So I’m just wondering, how do you, you know, you said you plead and beg, how do you like look for windows of opportunity or what do you see kind of changing that might foster a little bit more kind of financial literacy? like what’s kind of your toward vision, if you will, in terms of, you know, is it trying to find something that he’s really motivated for and setting some boundaries there or, I don’t know, I’m just curious to know how you kind of think about this moving forward.

Penny Williams:
Yeah, I have learned over the last few years to really be more my kids goal-focused. So my kid has a goal to live independently. Okay, let’s talk about money in the context of that goal, right? So it’s not for me, even though it is for me when I’m pleading and begging, right? I really like, need you to, you know, rein it in. But we have conversations in the context of my kids goals. And so it looks like, you know, when you are living on your own, you’ll have what bills? What will you be responsible for paying? So asking the question, getting him to think about it versus me just telling because half the time they’re not going to listen if we’re just telling like it goes in and out. Right. So many things go in and out. And it’s funny, we talked about that personal finance class just the other day. And he basically said, I don’t remember any of that, you know, it was school and school was hard and you know, all the things so, you know, but for my other kid, it really seemed to stick. And she’s very much a saver. And, you know, working toward that goal, big time, like putting it all in toward that goal of being independent. And I do want to add to that right now. It is really hard to be a young adult in general. Housing costs are astronomical. The cost of living, like food and stuff, has really gone up. And so there are a lot of young adults who are struggling to be independent, even though they have the skills and the desire. And I think that’s an important layer here, too, is that it’s not just the neurodivergence that is making that timeline stretch. But it’s also the reality of the world that we’re in right now and the financial, you know, the economy. And so there’s so much going into it and it can be really hard to figure out even where to start, you know, and thinking about this as we’re having this conversation, it feels a little overwhelming because there are so many pieces and moving parts, but I like to always just lean in on what is his goal. What does he want for himself? And I am here to try to help to make that possible, but not do it for him.

Debbie:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Let’s take our first break now. And when we get back, I will share what the financial conversations look like in our household. We have a very kind of different situation. So we will be right back. Okay. So I said before the break that we have a different situation. And I think that the biggest thing that’s different is that unlike your kiddo who you said is more impulsive and like the second the money comes in, it’s out the door. My kid does not want to spend any money furthermore, and doesn’t want to spend our money. Like I have to almost be like, it’s, I know it’s really interesting. It is great in many ways.

Penny Williams:
Yeah, but it can be problematic.

Debbie:
And it can be problematic. My kid is a computer science major. Literally, with the last computer, several of the keys just completely stopped working. And I’m like, we got to get you a new computer for the school year. No, it’s fine. I can work this out. I’ll just take the Tab key off, and I’ll just use my finger against the sensor. And I’m like, OK, isn’t the Tab key kind of important in computer programming. So this is the conversation that I’m starting with, right, is someone who, who has almost a scarcity mindset around money and really wanting to be really thoughtful and intentional and not wanting to make a wrong decision. So it’s been challenging in other ways to teach money lessons, because there’s not a lot of transactions going on, right. And we, we have a deal in our house, and I don’t know, if this is, this might have been what my parents said, even though I did have multiple jobs. But I think, you know, we’ve said, as long as you are not as long as let me say that again. We said, when you’re a student right now, and we want you to be able to focus on being a student. So we are going to cover your finances, we’ll cover your medical expenses and you know, those types of things. So we have a budget that we kind of share. And if there are doctor’s appointments or picking up meds or things like that, I’ll get a little text like, just bought this and it costs this much. I’m like, great. So I will reimburse that. So we’re covering that. So my kid is doing. a lot of the transactions now alone and handling all of that. And so that’s where some of the just understanding has gone in and also awareness of how much things actually cost, right? How much does an appointment cost and how do you pay for that and how do you get reimbursed from insurance? So I do kind of go through that stuff, but that’s kind of what our situation is. You know, my kiddo has just planned a big trip for the end of the semester to go visit some friends. And it was the first time that my child had like a significant thing that they wanted to do. And I was like, okay, well, you’ve got the money to cover that. So I think there was a little bit of surprise like, okay. Yeah, yeah, okay. And so I just like, let me know if you need help booking that flight or doing whatever it is that you’re doing. So I’ve really stepped back. So I’m just kind of looking for opportunities, but I will say, I wish we had had a class like that. Like you mentioned your school had, I definitely, cause I struggled with money stuff for so long. And of course, you know, when, you know, when you’ve had those struggles as a young person yourself. You want to save your kid from all those hard lessons and digging out of credit card debt and all of that stuff. So I do wish that we had done some of that more kind of just formal financial literacy stuff at an earlier age. But I always felt like, OK. But there’s so many other fires that I have to attend to right now. I don’t have the bandwidth for this stuff. And so it just became one of those many things that was on the list of things that would be nice to have, but not necessary right now because so many other things seem so more important.

Penny Williams:
Yeah. I wrote down that you said save them from hard lessons because that is what we want to do, right? As parents, especially as type A fixers like I am, and I think you might also identify. And so it can be really, really hard not to try to rescue. And I think that’s a really big lesson for me as a parent of kids this age is being able to like working on myself to be able to not try to rescue, not try to solve. And I try to remember to even like ask do you want my advice right now? Or do you just want me to listen? And I typically don’t start there and I have to catch myself because it’s a really, really tough one for me to do. And I, you know, I have a mom who was pretty much the same, you know, I learned it from example myself, she, she still tries to take care of us and we’re very grown and mature adults. And, you know, that’s her nature. And so I think trying to pull back from that because I don’t have the kids who are just so eager to run out the door like I was. I went to college in the same town where my parents lived, but I moved into the dorm. I was like, I’m out of here. And I figured it out and I worked multiple jobs like you did, so you know, being able to shift our whole mindset around this was my experience and feeling like we don’t understand why they’re not the same. Having to really unpack that, right? There’s a lot of emotion behind that.

Debbie:
Yeah. Yeah, and for so many of us, I think this is probably something that most parents experience. When our kids are little, it feels different. But now that our kids are young adults, it’s like those hard-won lessons for us are not that far. I mean, they are far away from me. They’re like 20, 30 years away. But still, they were really important to me because they were things that I worked hard to figure out. It feels like we’re giving you this benefit of all the things that we have struggled to learn. And we’re going to kind of give you the fast pass so that you don’t have to go through all of this stuff. And yeah, you’re exactly right. Like those are the things that all of our kids have to go through. I mean, it’ll look different, but you know, learning something on your own is going to make such a huge difference in terms of having a sense of agency over the accomplishment or the win. It’s going to make the dots that we’re trying, that we hope they connect right for themselves and that self understanding and self knowledge, it’s going to make that be much more meaningful and genuine as opposed to us kind of, yeah, trying to give them the cheat code so that they can learn this stuff without putting all the work in. Yeah.

Penny Williams:
Yeah, and I certainly had a lot of wisdom from my parents that I completely ignored when I left home.

Debbie:
Yes, so true. Yeah, yeah, it is true. It’s part of the individuation, which we talked about last time for sure. Let’s move on to another logistical topic that I think would be really interesting for parents to hear from. And that is thinking about accommodations. And if you think about a lot of listeners who have kids who are still in school, middle school, high school, whatever year your kids are in. There’s the advocacy that we do for accommodations to get them the support that they need so they can show up and be their best selves in those different environments. And so it’s a little different then when you have a young adult, right? Our role as an advocate might look different and there might be accommodations that do or don’t work in the workplace. And I’d love to hear about that, what that looks like for you guys. And I can talk about what that has looked like in our world for the college experience. But yeah, I’m just wondering, are there accommodations that you thought your kid was going to need to be able to attend to some of the more adult things and going to a job and, and those things that, that actually wasn’t what they needed at all or that there were different things that were necessary.

Penny Williams:
Hmm. Yeah. What I have struggled with in that area is we had a lot of school avoidance and refusal growing up from fourth grade all the way through graduation. I still have PTSD from it. Like, still, in the mornings when I know he’s supposed to go to work, I mean, I feel it right now, like a pit in my stomach because we are still working on that avoidance. is so, so, so much better now than it was. We’ve made huge progress, but there are still times where that creeps in. One thing we’ve struggled with, for instance, is like, if I don’t feel real great when I wake up, the day is shot. I can’t do it. I can’t, you know, so if, you know, my stomach feels a little weird when my eyeballs open, I’m canceling the day. And we’ve had to really try to work on, okay, you have to get up, you have to get moving. You can’t just immediately decide what this means. You have to kind of explore it and you have to try to go anyway. His work experience is unique. He’s actually working part time with his dad. His Dad’s employer was open to it, which is amazing. And he really needed some help. It’s a kitchen and bath company. They do a lot of cabinet making and word working. And my kid is very interested in that. He’s learned through other jobs that he’s tried that he wants something that’s going to be different from day to day and very hands on. And so my husband really needed help. They were. having a really hard time keeping people. And so the opportunity arose and I said, let’s try it. And I did not think it was going to work, honestly. Like they are way too similar. I thought this is not going to work out, but it is working. And it’s actually something right now it’s a slow period. So he hasn’t been able to work as much, maybe like one day a week, sometimes two. And he’s like, I want to work more. I want to work more, which is amazing. That feels like a huge, huge bit of progress for us. And so, you know, but when he has worked for, I mean, he’s working for another employer, but it’s a different situation with his dad kind of in the middle. But when he’s worked other places before that, it’s been a challenge for him with the environment and the way people interact with him. He gets really anxious about like, you know, if someone maybe raises their voice in frustration, he feels like, they’re gonna yell at me, this is gonna be really bad, right? And so then he would be walking on eggshells, then he would start feeling like, I don’t feel well enough to go today, right? And it started to devolve. And so we could really see that environment and also like being able to use his brain. He’s had jobs where he just like, worked in a screen printing shop and he cleaned the screens and he folded the t-shirts and he stood basically in one of two spots all day and hated it. He said, all of these things don’t work for me. I need to use my brain. I need something different. You know, so many, needs more of that, like. input, right, stimulation, like within the job situation. And so while nothing has really stuck yet, and there’s been little bits here and there, they have been a lesson in themselves. And he has seen the lesson, which is amazing. He has said, well, I know I don’t want this now. I know I don’t want that now. Not cued or prompted for me at all, which is kind of mind blowing, you know, after 23 years with this kid. And so I see every day little glimpses that he is figuring it out himself, that he is getting to know himself more. that he is taking ownership of the journey more. And, you know, in talking about accommodations and things that I wish might have been different, I really do wish I had not done as much. Like he needed the accommodations in Squall for sure. dysgraphia was brutal, know, inattention, hyperactivity, all these things, he definitely needed that. But then when he came home, I was micromanaging, I was sitting with him to do his work. If he had an online class at home, we sat together and did it every single day. I never left him to do things on his own because I felt like they wouldn’t get done. because he really didn’t care about school. School was hard. People didn’t understand him. They were always telling him to try harder, and he was smart enough to do it. So he actually had a lot of learned helplessness from that school experience that we’ve been working on unpacking. But there was definitely a point late in the game where I was like, I have been doing too much, but at this point, if I stop, he’s just going to drop out. And that’s awful. And so I kept going so that we could finish. And I realize that now.

Debbie:
Yeah. yeah yeah also super relatable so let’s take our second break and then i’ll I will add to this particular topic when we get back. So one of the things that you said I just felt, so like I felt the pit in your stomach when you describe feeling a pit in your stomach when you realize your son doesn’t want to go to work that day and you have that PTSD of all of that avoidance and what does this mean? And that is something that we still navigate as well. again, but just from afar. And so I just have so much less control and I’ve had to have been kind of forced to just let go of that ability to like literally like, hey, time to get up, time to get going to class or whatever. I will say when we talk about accommodations, you know, at school, it’s been really interesting. And I often feel like I’m late. I’m late to the party in terms of understanding what’s possible. So I think I err on the other side of kind of feeling like, you know, the school’s got this or this will be okay. And then I, I kind of want to see how things play out and then add more in if necessary. And that has been kind of our MO and sometimes I don’t think it works out great. Right. So here we are at the end of year two, which has been really intense and rigorous and just very challenging for the demands because they really went up this year. And my kid is registered with disability services, but, and, you know, has gotten support, but I, I was kind of staying in the background and I kind of realized like, I need to be more involved here. And I have been And I’m so glad that I have been. I think now the school is also like, yeah, there’s a lot more we can do. So I feel like things are actually working well the way they’re supposed to. And I wish that I had been more on top of that stuff early on. and just kind of been a little bit more direct, like these are the things that could be difficult. How would you, how do you navigate this? have experience with students who struggle with this, this and this? What is that, what do formal supports for students like this look like? So it’s been an interesting journey for me to just kind of trust in that process and also realize that Yeah, I think it’s really hard, Penny, also because this is what we do. We know so much about what we’re supposed to do and the best practices. I’m using air quotes if you’re not watching. We do, we read all the books, we talk to all the people. And so I feel like often with this stuff, I’m like, don’t want to make the wrong decision or make the wrong step. So I probably, again, err on the side of being like in my head as opposed to my gut when I’m showing up for the skin, that has been a big thing I’m trying to retrain right now and just be like, no, what are you doing? you know, maybe on paper, but you got to attend to the kid you have in front of you. What does your child need right now? And what do you need right now? And what does your relationship need right now?

Penny Williams:
I think you just named like just put language the experience that’s so valuable. said I’m in my head. You know, we do have I feel like all the information but nobody ever has all the information. But we over the years have both just consumed and consumed and consumed and really tried to learn how to be the best parent we can be for neurodivergent kids. And so Like we have all of this in our heads and we map out the way that we think it should and I’m going to use air quotes on my should go and then there we have to layer like the emotional aspect and the fact that we’re in it and this is our family and this is our kid and follow that more than just the information and knowledge that we have, but it’s really hard because we have sort of, I mean, honestly, we’ve both kind of written the book, right? Like literally, we’ve both written about what this should look like. And it’s just so much more complex and messy than that. It’s so much different than words on a page, right? Or listening to an expert speak about it. And I, yeah, it, you really just labeled so beautifully what that’s like.

Debbie:
Yeah, it’s uncomfortable in a word. It’s super uncomfortable. Yeah. Okay. Well, let there’s one other thing I want to touch upon before we wrap this up because then you guys will have to tune into part four for the continuation. But one of the questions that I get asked a lot is when what kind of outside help have you brought in to support your young adult and how did you make that decision, right? Like when you’re like, okay, we need outside reinforcements or how did you engage your child in those decisions as well? Because we can’t like force supports onto our kids when you’ve got a young adult. I mean, we shouldn’t be forcing supports on any kids to be fair, but we have a little bit more, you know. When you’re under 18, you’re living in my home or whatever, but it’s different now, right? So I’d love to know if there’s any outside help or supports that you guys have engaged and what getting that, whether there was buy-in involved or how you’ve navigated that.

Penny Williams:
Yeah, you know, we don’t have decision-making power anymore when they turn 18. When they’re younger, we legally are allowed to be more involved, right? And when they turn 18, we can no longer be a decision-maker on, you know, what healthcare looks like, therapy, all of these things. And so, you know, my kid quit therapy the moment he turned 18, and probably didn’t do any for a couple of years and I just let it be because what else am I going to do? The more I pressure, the less he’s going to do it. And so, you know, there were times where I just reminded him that the opportunity is there. I’m happy to drive you. I’m happy to pay for it. Whenever you want to explore therapy again, you know, I’m in your corner. on your side. I’ve got you. And finally, there came a point where he felt like it would be a good idea to start doing it again and did for a while. And then his therapist quit practicing therapy, I think, from burnout themselves. And so he went back to, I’m just going to take a break. And so now we’re back to the opportunity is there. I’m happy to help you with it whenever you’re ready. And that’s been a lot of the structure of that. There have been other things that we’ve tried to do. Some of the opportunities revolved around like exploring a career opportunity. Like, you know, he was into voice acting. And so we did some voice acting classes. And then he felt like, you know, and part of this was my voice in his head too. Freelancing is hard. It’s hard to never have a stable, steady income. And you’re really gonna have to like, put all of your heart and soul into finding work and making this happen and juggling it. That did not sound good to him, which you can’t blame, right? And then like, then he was really into puppetry for a while. And I happened to have interviewed a puppeteer, I think it’s called that has ADHD. And I reached out to him I said, Hey, Would you do some coaching calls on Zoom with my kid around puppetry? He’s like, sure. And so we worked that out. There was buy in, but then that trickled. And I had left it up to him. OK, I’ll pay for it, but you have to schedule it. You have to. Like, if I keep pushing him and talking him into doing things, those things are never going to stick. We’re not going to ever gain traction that way. And so I’m like, you know, when it’s the thing, I feel like it’s going to spark all the stuff. And at least there’s going to be some, some individual effort right there. And so I just let things fizzle out as they run their course, which can be really difficult. I mean, he’s fantastic at voices. Like I think he could do really amazing with that. And so, you know, just like being open. I’m open to what you want to try. Here’s the opportunity. You take it from there. You lead. And then the only other thing that I think we’ve done is the healthy gamer has a coaching program, and he did that probably about nine months or a year ago now. And, you know, I had interviewed Dr. K on the podcast again, and was so in love with his approach and what he’s doing and had really floated the idea to my kiddo. And it floated for a long time, a really long time. And then one day he was like, Yeah, I do think I want to try that. I do want to find balance in my life with my online life and an in person life. And so we did that. And I think there could be more opportunities. Some of it is a financial barrier for us right now. Also, he’s not really into it. I floated some other stuff, and it’s still simmering, we’ll say. He wants to. be able to work more hours at the shop and on job sites. And part of the struggle is that they’re so busy that his dad doesn’t have time to teach him new skills. And I’m like, well, you could go to the community college. They actually have a cabinet making class, just one class, no worksheets, no like it’s not going to be like school. And so that has been floated. I was hoping it’s simmering. Last night I was thinking, hmm, pretty sure he’s already put that away, but it’s out there, you know? So like, I can’t force him to do things even if I like physically could. They’re not gonna have the outcome I want if that’s the way that we go into it. And that’s another one of those really hard lessons to come by and to implement day to day.

Debbie:
Yeah, I mean, what I heard you say is looking for the opportunities, then floating things out there, and then letting them simmer. Like, that is really it. That’s like the formula. I just was thinking about this question before we jumped on the call, just how slowly we need to proceed, right? And not be attached to any outcome. And. Yeah, especially with, you know, kids who have a really strong desire for autonomy, you know, as mine does. it’s all about making offers for help. noticing areas of challenge or where the motivation is there, but there’s something getting in the way from being able to make meaningful progress toward a goal or towards something right. That the kiddo wants. And then that’s where I’m like, Well, I noticed that this is something you’re really interested in. There are people who, you know, who support students like you in doing X or there are, there is, like you said, a class where you could learn this. I, you know, so let me know if that sounds interesting to you and I’m happy to do a little more research or, know, so I just kind of always am putting things out there. I think for us, we did. I probably talked about this in one of our last conversations, but an executive function coach was something that we looked into at the beginning of university. And it just didn’t work, you know, because my kid wasn’t really bought in. Like we know the need is there. Like we knew that this is going to be an area where there was potentially going to be challenge and there has been. It is kind of the biggest challenge, but it just, there wasn’t buy-in. And my kid is someone who wants to figure it out. Let me figure out how this looks, how I can do it. And it is really messy. It continues to be messy. And we’re just as a family, we’re all trying to navigate it together. So Darren and I are trying to be more trusting in the process and trusting in the messiness of the journey and not being attached to what this looks like. and then looking for little opportunities. And if there is a request for help or there is a signal that there is a desire for a little more support, then we’re, OK, well, not forcing anything. But I have some ideas. Let me know if you want to hear them. So that’s how we’ve been doing it. And I think our therapy situation is similar. It’s an on-off thing with different providers. I think it’s just really hard. I think it’s hard to find the right fit. And because we did a big move that ended a therapeutic relationship, which while wasn’t perfect, there was kind of a long-standing developed relationship, so starting over has been tricky. So yeah, I haven’t found the right match there. So I just really pay attention to when there is like. a little signal flare or something is said that indicates there’s an openness or there’s a need and they’re recognizing a gap. And I am always trying to just remind you don’t have to do this alone. Like there are people who just do and support people who struggle with this to do the thing because we’re not all good at everything. Like we all need help in different domains. So that’s kind of where my work focuses around all of that.

Penny Williams:
Yeah, you said something really amazing attached to the outcome. I think that’s one of the big themes for me as a parent of young adults is I cannot still be as invested and attached to the outcomes. I have to start pulling back from that, right? And I think that that is a good segue into our part four. of the conversation. I think we’re planning to talk about this emotional layer. And so we can chat more about that. But that really struck me as you were talking, like, yes, so attached to the outcomes. I’m so attached. And it can be a real problem.

Debbie:
It really can. And on that note, tune in for part four. No, no, this has been great. We got through, we did a good job getting through that outline and we do have a lot more to talk about. And as you said, we’re going to be talking more about the relational and the emotional layer of all of this and how we do it. And I’m, you’re not watching this, I’m saying we, meaning Penny and I, what this looks like for us. and how do we move through this? So Penny, thank you as always for a delightful conversation. I love exploring this stuff with you. And listeners, be sure to check out the show notes page. I will have links to all the conversations in this kind of mini series. Well, it’s like a mini series, isn’t it, at the end of the day? And to all of Penny’s resources, she’s got a podcast, great website, she does summits, she’s got books, she’s got a lot going on. definitely check out the show notes page for this and then don’t forget to tune in in two days to the beautifully complex podcast for part four. So thank you and we will see you in a few days. Thanks Penny.

Penny Williams:
Thank you, Debbie.