Dr. Ellen Braaten on Helping Teens and Tweens Discover What they Love to Do

Debbie:
Hey, welcome back to the podcast.

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
Thanks for having me.

Debbie:
The last time you were on the show, we talked about your book about motivation, bright kids who couldn’t care less how to rekindle your child’s motivation. And so this is kind of taking it to the next level. So as a way to get into our conversation, I’m really just curious, what is it about motivation that intrigues you so much motivation and kids?

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
Well, I think what I have found as a psychologist is motivation is really, it’s the fire that gets us going. And so I evaluate kids with learning differences and ADHD and slow processing speed and other sorts of issues. And the ones who kind of lose motivation are the ones who are having trouble getting, using the services that people are providing to them. They are having trouble figuring out who they are, what they want to do. They have trouble launching into adulthood. So the longer I’ve been a psychologist, the more I realize how important motivation is. So we talk a lot about you decreasing anxiety, decreasing depression, making kids have all the accommodations that they need. But if they’re not motivated and motivation is really about kind of understanding who you are. If they don’t know that. None of the things that we put in place for them, none of the perfect parenting sorts of techniques that we have are actually all that good if they don’t know how to stay motivated and what really gives them that spark in life.

Debbie:
Yeah, and I think the word motivation is often paired with laziness. I think about conversations I’ve had with parents in my community and it is really, really challenging for parents to feel like their kid is aimlessly blowing in the wind and nothing seems to matter to them. And that word laziness does often creep into there too, depending on how the child’s experiencing their daily life. And so just in a general sense when parents say my kid’s unmotivated, you know, what do you think is really going on behind the surface?

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
So I think there are a number of things that can go on behind the surface. So one is that the child doesn’t have the skillset to do what it is they need to do. So if we can’t do a job, we look like we’re unmotivated to do it. So there’s that. That’s always something I want to check out. I always want to check out, are they anxious about something? Do they have something else? Are they depressed? Are they overwhelmed? But a lot of times, when we’re talking about sort of the typical child who seems unmotivated, who doesn’t have those other issues, a lot of times it’s just because they feel overwhelmed. So think about it when you as a parent are overwhelmed, what do you usually do? You don’t step up to the plate. It’s not like you’re like, wow, I’m feeling overwhelmed. Now I’m going to tackle everything on my list. It’s the opposite. We can’t do the job and we’re feeling overwhelmed. So kids who are over-scheduled, kids who are feeling like I don’t know what my true passion is, and you’re giving me all of these things to do and I don’t know how to do it. And then I also think that one way to keep us motivated is to be responsible for things. So that’s often the thing that parents take out of the equation. Like I don’t want my child to be responsible for their own homework or their own daily life. I’m going to make everything perfect for them so they can concentrate on the things that they should be motivated to do like schoolwork and extracurriculars. When really what motivates us a lot is feeling that we have a sense of efficacy and that we’re like, I’m sort of in charge of myself. So kids who feel like they’re not really in charge of anything aren’t really motivated to tackle the things that they are capable of doing. So I guess I gave you a lot of reasons, but I don’t think there’s usually one reason. I think it depends on the child and I think it depends on where the child is in life.

Debbie:
Yeah, it’s interesting what you just said, it’s counterintuitive, right? And I’m thinking of the concept of learned helplessness, like parents kind of stepping up and leaning in to support their child. But you’re absolutely right if you’re feeling like, well, nothing I do really matters. Or maybe my parents or others don’t think I’m capable of doing this. That can be very demotivating.

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
Yeah, and it’s kind of funny because for older students, like older middle school to high school students, what I find is sometimes the really, just the most wonderful little spark to help motivation is to get a job. Like a boring old job in a coffee shop, in an ice cream store, or something, mowing lawns or doing something, taking care of a pet or something that they get paid to do. can be very motivating. And it’s the opposite of what you would think. You think like, I’ve got to find the right extracurricular activity or the right art class for my child who has a bit of an interest in art. But no, we get motivated by feeling like what I’m doing makes a difference. And kids love feeling responsible. And they don’t really have a whole lot of responsibility in today’s world. So they have a lot of pressure, but not a lot of really great responsibility. And we used to have more of that in our daily lives. You used to be responsible if you were an older sibling, families were larger, you’re responsible for taking care of your siblings or your cousins or the people in the neighborhood that were younger than you are, or your grandparent or the elderly neighbor. You had a lot of responsibility in previous generations that kids just don’t have, which actually doesn’t make them very motivated to become an adult because they don’t have any of those adult responsibilities.

Debbie:
Yeah. And just one more question before we get into your new workbook. You know, I’m just curious in this particular time in the world where it’s very complex time to be a young person to be growing up, not just because of the fact that there aren’t as many opportunities maybe in their day to day life to really step up and be responsible, but I imagine there’s also a sense of what are we doing here anyway? Like what is, you know, it’s demotivating to see kind of what’s happening in the world. And I’m just curious how that kind of impacts the lens in which you do your work.

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
Very good point. I do think that’s true. And I think that part of the problem is that we put too much pressure on kids to understand the very complex problems in our world. And that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be exposed to things like racism, the environment, the politics of the world, but they can’t be expected to have the same sort of depth of experience that we have. And let’s face it, adults are pretty worried and demotivated by what’s going on in the world. But you know what? The world’s always been an unsafe place in some ways. And the way we get through is to sort of like look at the complexity of the world and keep going. And that’s kind of what motivation is about. Despite the fact that things look kind of grim in some ways, I’ve got an opportunity here to make a difference in my world. And that’s what’s really different I think about now. We don’t pair that kind of, you know, the difficult things that are going on that we’re bombarded with because of social media and because we sort of in some ways changed the curriculum of how we really, the things that we think kids need to learn. Again, I’m not saying that they don’t need to learn that, but kids kind of learn about racism and kindness and those sorts of things without having to be explicitly taught about how awful it is. especially in the younger grade. So I think you’re right. It does sort of eat away a little bit at you when you’re like, my gosh, the world is really scary. Why bother?

Debbie:
Well, the good news is that, you know, not only are you providing tools for parents to better understand what motivates their kids and how to tap into that, but you have a new workbook out for teens and tweens. I love a good workbook. I said that before we hit record, I used to write teens and tweens and I have such a soft spot in my heart for anything that is helping kids understand themselves better. Your book is called the motivation mindset workbook helping teens and tweens discover what they love to do. So can you just share why this workbook, what made you want to create kind of a hands-on version for kids to go through?

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
Well, like you said, I wrote the book Bright Kids Who Couldn’t Care Less a few years, a couple of years ago, and it’s filled with all the kinds of things that parents and teachers need to think about when they’re thinking about motivation. And I talked in the book about looking at a child’s aptitude, the things that give them pleasure, the things they like to spend time doing. All these things are important for motivation. But I really felt like, my co-author too, Dr. Hilary Bush, really felt like, but what do we do as parents? Like, what do we actually do? What can we do? And so that’s why we came up with the idea for the workbook is it gives you actual hands-on activities, things to think about. And you know, in a lot of ways, if you’re a parent, you don’t have to necessarily get out the workbook and have them do it. It gives you a mindset or like an idea about how do I broach the topic, what kind of questions? And there are plenty of kids who will love doing the workbook for sure. But you may have a 14-year-old son who’s like, don’t really, I don’t want to get out. I don’t want to get out the markers and do this. And there are ways to kind of think about that. So the connectivity might be, think about your best day ever. And you don’t have to put that in a workbook. You can just broach that subject with your child. So what the workbook kind of looks at is a few different things. One section is looking at what’s the point, which is kind of what you and I have been talking about. What’s the point? It’s really about motivation. What’s the point of it all? Then it talks about who am I, which is kind of like what I mentioned in the other book, our aptitudes, who am I, what makes me happy? Because that’s an essential part of motivation. How can I get more of what makes me happy, which is a whole other section of the book. So what makes me happy? Well, great, I know what that is. But now how do I get more of it? So there are activities to do that. And then sort of pulling it all together. So how do I take all those little pieces and pull it together? And then there’s another section of the book about the things that get in the way of motivation, just get in things like too little sleep, social media time, relaxing anxiety, screen time, and those sorts of things. It’s not a book about screen time or sleep, but it helps you kind of think about, wait a minute, it might not just be about finding the right kind of motivation, but getting the other things out of the way that are getting in the way of motivation.

Debbie:
Yeah, that’s great. So I think a lot of parents, if they perceive their kids as unmotivated, they may feel like, this is just who they are. They’re demand avoidant. This is part of their temperament or their personality. But you emphasize that motivation is not a fixed trait. Could you say a little bit more about that?

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
It’s not. It’s not a single character trait. It’s not something that’s built into us. Think about your own life. Motivation is something that ebbs and flows depending on the situation. It depends on our biology, our support system. And by biology, it means that, you know, some of us are born a little bit more, more apt to be motivated. But that does not mean that if you don’t have that biology. Your support systems, your opportunities for rewards. You talked about learned helplessness. So that’s the environment giving you feedback that no matter what you do, it doesn’t really matter. So that’s a change in the environment, not in the person. And a desire to keep lives running smoothly is also something that motivates us to do well. And I think I might have mentioned our opportunities to get rewarded. So if you’re a child who doesn’t hear a lot of good things because you have ADHD or you have a learning disability and you’re getting all this feedback or you’re just an unmotivated kid who has gotten into this cycle where everybody’s like, I can’t believe you didn’t do that. I can’t believe you disappointed me again. So it really also changes according to life’s circumstances. So if you’ve had a big change in your life, a friend, a best friend has moved out of town. All of these things can change one’s motivation. that the secret to unlocking it is to kind of think inward and then also think outward. What’s happened in the world, the small world, you know, the small W world, but also the big world to change my child’s motivation and how do we better understand him and also his parents, us better to be able to cope with that.

Debbie:
Well, something you said about, you know, kids with ADHD who might have a high need for reward or I’m also just thinking of kids who have repeatedly, like you said, gotten the message that they’re not doing well enough. Those life circumstances, those would seem to me to be factors that could make motivation may be harder to access for some neurodivergent kids. Have you seen that? Or are there other aspects of being neurodivergent or patterns that might show up

Dr. Ellen Braaten
So I think there are two ways to look at these kinds of patterns. One is that if you’ve overcome a learning difference, you are actually more resilient than you are if you’ve never had a learning difference. So people with learning disabilities who make it into college are more resilient than students who do not have a learning disability. If you looked at the literature on that, you would say, my gosh, I wish everyone had a learning disability because they’ve learned if they get to college. Now, that’s the thing. We’re looking at college students. They’ve negotiated all of those challenges. What I think happens with the other group of kids who don’t make it to college or are unmotivated, they’ve lost the ability to identify their strengths. And without that ability to identify your strengths, you’re pulled into that negative thinking. It sets up that cycle that decreases motivation. And so that’s why the first thing that we talk about, one of the first things we talk about in the workbook, second section of the workbook after what’s the point is what are my strengths without and without being able to identify who am I and what am I good at? You’re never going to be all that motivated. It just is part of motivation. I have to know that I can do this or actually I’m going to like a realistic way of thinking about oneself that’s going to be really challenging for me, but I want to do that anyway because I know that it’s challenging and I know what I need to do that. It can take a lot of effort if you’ve got a neurodivergent child because so much of the world is about what do they need on their IEP? What are they lacking as opposed to what do they have? So it might take a lot of reflection, but it can be very self-assuring. can be a very wonderful experience to sort of look at that and can really, really pay off.

Debbie:
Yeah, I love that you refer to the VIA. Is it a tool, the assessment tool? Could you talk about that?

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
Yes, I think that’s a wonderful tool. It’s referred to in both the books, but definitely in the workbook, we even have a few activities around it. So it’s called the VIA, the values inventory assessment. And it looks at different character strengths that a person may have or does have. It’s a wonderful piece of, it’s just a wonderful bit of psychological literature. done by Martin Seligman, who is sort of like the father of positive psychology. He’s a psychologist who really looked at positive psychology. And what he and his team studied was cross-culturally across every area of the globe. What are the things in our world as humans that we value? And it’s really wonderful because a lot of neurodivergent kids aren’t always that interested in a love of learning, which is one character strength. But that’s not the only character strength. It’s one that we tend to value a lot in our society. But there are other things like humility, sense of humor, creativity, spirituality. So there are lots of other kinds of character strengths. And it’s a wonderful place to start because there is no right or wrong answer. And it can be a really wonderful thing to do with your child. It’s a free tool that you can take online. I oftentimes encourage parents to do it too because it’s interesting to know what it is that I value. Anecdotally, I find that lots of kids with ADHD, one of their five top character strengths is humor. So they really value humor in their life and think about it. If you’re a child who values humor and so little of the time people appreciate your humor, you’re going to have trouble staying motivated. So the things that you value have to kind of be in line with what your daily life is.

Debbie:
Yeah, I do love that assessment. I did it many years ago myself and I, you those, the fact that it’s all strengths, it’s not like here’s your weaknesses, here are your strengths, they’re all strengths. And it’s just a reminder that we all have them and such good information to have. And you you spend a lot of time early in the book helping kids really kind of discover who they are. Could you talk about identity as well as something that’s such a powerful entry point for motivation.

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
I think I find that for a lot of children as they enter into adulthood, they really don’t know who they are and they really can’t articulate what it is that I love doing. And especially if, you know, they can’t answer the questions, who am I as a person? What are my strengths? What clearly are not my strengths? Because we have a very huge tendency in our society to not identify or not good at everybody like you can do that. And so like kids know like, no, I’m not really good at math. I’m never going to be a mathematician or I’m not good at basketball. Let me get off the team and do something that I love. So it really identity is about do my strengths match the strengths and personalities of the other people in my world and what the world is expecting of me. So I, so that’s really, that’s part of it. And then also something we don’t spend a lot of time talking about is who is the person I want to become, which is also part of identity. And that’s why a number of the exercises in the book are about imagine your perfect day five years from now. Imagine your perfect day 20 years from now. We never do those sorts of things with kids. I’ve had parents say, I don’t want to know that because what if it’s like their perfect day 20 years from now is just playing video games in the basement. It’s not. I can tell you it is never that. so, but parents are so afraid of what they’re going to come up with and maybe they will come up with something that they don’t love. you know, they don’t want to kind of be on the same path that their parents want them to be. But being able to talk about that is part of identity formation.

Debbie:
Yeah. Yeah, there’s so many great exercises in the book. And I just have to share this quote that I loved. you ask kids to share who they admire and who their role models are. And Harper, age 15 said I really admire how creative Dolly Parton is. She’s written so many songs and I just laughed out loud when I read that I was like, the fact that a 15 year old girl is looking at Dolly Parton as her role model. Brilliant.

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
Well, you know what, you never know whose kids role models are because sometimes their role models are like who grandma loves. And sometimes their role model is grandma. It’s just really interesting when you think about that. And one reason why we had that activity in the book is because when you’re asking about identity formation, sometimes kids are like, I don’t know what I’m good at. All right, well, let’s start with who you admire then. And why do you admire them? And is it because you have that quality? or because you don’t and wish you had, how do you get it? Or sometimes what we admire is the opposite of us. So, okay. So what does that mean if, you you admire that in somebody or you have, I think we talk at some point in the book about like relabeling like negatives as a positive, you know, like hyperactive is inquisitive, sort of a slow processor is really perceptive and, you know, a deep thinker. So those sorts of things can be really 

Debbie:
Yeah, that was another exercise that I loved. It’s called double meanings. And you just say from the day you were born adults have been using words to describe who you are. And sometimes the labels are positive, but other times they’re more negative. And reclaiming those I mean, just full disclosure, that’s what I’m doing in therapy right now. Right? I’m reclaiming. Well, I was a chatterbox for my entire youth. So how’s that? Well, look what I do now. I’m a Castor.

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
Exactly. So the sorts of things that, I mean, it is hard in families because that sort of like chatterbox is one of those things where you’re like, that’s not a positive, but it kind of is if you’re going to be hosting a podcast. It’s, so yeah, every single thing that seems like a negative in that way can be a positive. And so we, I think reclaiming that at age 15, just think about how you don’t have to do that in therapy. know, we’re asking, being able to know who you are, the positives and the negatives really is, like you said, it’s identity formation and it’s also a gift in a way because we spend our whole lives trying to answer that question in therapy and relationships that work out or don’t work out. And so it can be a real gift. to kind of get in there in the weeds with your child about some of these things and also think about it a bit for you because thinking about some of these techniques for yourself can be a great way to show your child how to reclaim that for yourself too.

Debbie:
Another exercise that I thought was super brilliant was people who motivate me and people who don’t. And what I loved about that is because you’re just saying like, is mom motivating me? Is dad motivating me? so and so, you know, and I think. These are things that kids know, but probably aren’t invited to share that actually when you’re saying this or doing this, this is actually not motivating me at all. Could you say more about that discovery?

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
Oh, yeah. I mean, I think it’s great. We’ve got to talk about that. Like, who are the people in my life that motivate me? And there’s some other activities that are kind of similar to that. Like, what do you say that’s motivating? And what do you say that really doesn’t motivate me? And where I put that on the scale. So really identifying like it’s the English teacher that is really getting in my way because they do this or mom, it’s you. You are the one who’s really, when you say this, I’m having trouble, like it doesn’t help me at all. And so that’s, I think it’s important kind of thing to identify who are the people in your life who really motivate you, who are the ones who don’t, are the ones who don’t, ones who you just kind of need to say, there’s, there’s, I just need to have you do other things in my life, or do I need you to change? Is there the possibility of change? And then also I would say, is there the possibility of a parent intervening? So let’s say it is a math teacher or something that’s really like, sometimes it is just one teacher that can change the whole course of a child’s school year. And if that’s the case, then maybe that’s time for the parent to step up. So whatever information you get from that activity, it’s really, it’s a way of like then doing something about it. But it’s such a relief for a child to have the space to be able to do that.

Debbie:
Are there other ways that parents kind of accidentally undermine their kids? They might be thinking, well, I’m giving solutions or I’m doing all the things that help me feel motivated. are there, yeah, what kind of mistakes do parents make when they’re trying to motivate their child?

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
I think everybody makes sort of the same mistakes, you can do it, you can, know, which is sort of like, kind of like false praise, which never works when you’re unmotivated just for any age at all. And then I also think that, trying to fix the problem, taking away the responsibility as opposed to putting on the responsibility, which again, we normally, if I’m with an adult or child who’s unmotivated, you can do it. Let me leave. What do I need? What do you need? Let me get, let me get this for you. And that’s never helpful. What’s helpful is it sounds like you’re really discouraged right now. Let’s talk about some of these. What are the things that are getting your way? What are the things you wish you knew? Like there’s like, we were just talking about the, you know, who are the people in my life who motivate me or not. And another activity is I wish my parents knew this. I wish my parents knew when they said this, I felt this. Or I wish my parents knew what it’s like for me when I’m doing homework. I wish I know what it’s like when they put pressure on me. or when they help me too much. So those are the sorts of conversations that these, you know, this is all about kind of opening up the world. It’s not, there’s no like pill for motivation. It’s like, it’s self exploration and finding your passion and finding how to time to be able to do enough of that. It’s not like we’re not, the goal is not like to spend your entire life in that passion, but to have enough of that. So you can stay motivated in the rest of your world,

Debbie:
Yeah, so and I just, you know, I think about the urgency so many parents feel, right, that we’re on this timeline and my kids, you know, not attending to school in the way that they need to right now. How, you know, I get asked all the time, and I’m sure you do, how do I get my child to dot dot dot? How do I get my child to care about this? And so what I’m hearing you say is that we’re playing a long game here, and that really, this is an investment in helping our kids know themselves deeply and it’s not necessarily gonna, it’s not flipping a switch, it’s not gonna change everything overnight but it’s so worth it in the long run because the other way clearly doesn’t work.

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
Exactly. really what the long game is, is exactly how you should think about this through life, not just through childhood, because staying motivated is something that we all have to do and cultivate throughout our entire lives. So what you’re really teaching them is honestly resiliency. Also motivation is really an executive function skill in some ways, because you’ve got to plan ahead. You’ve got to think about what it is that you want to do. So you’re teaching a lot. As you’re working through some of these ideas, like how do you want to spend this school year? How do we do that? Where do we make time for it? That’s also you’re teaching executive functions along with that. So yeah, you’re really, it’s a long game, but as a parent, it can feel so frustrating when you’ve got an unmotivated child, you want to fix it that week. And I think that understanding that is not how motivation works. And yet you can have a child who all of a sudden, There’s a switch that’s flipped and they have the right teacher, they’re in the right class, they make the right friend. So you just have to be open to hearing about their experiences, help guide them down the path and then be open to encouraging those sorts of relationships and experiences that might increase motivation.

Debbie:
Yeah. You know, I’ll just share like flipping the switch. When I was in college, I was not a great student at all. I was a solid like C student, maybe low C, C minus. And I did an internship one summer at NBC News and where I wanted to be Holly Hunter from broadcast news. That was my dream. And it changed my life. I came back and I was suddenly I see what I see what I want. And I was a completely different students. So for me it was a switch, but it took probably way longer than my parents would have liked for me to finally start studying for a class. But I think what you’re talking about doing and what I think is the power. of this workbook and doing these self-exploration activities with our kids is that it’s helping them kind of rewrite their own story. And I think that is the greatest investment that we can make in our kids, right?

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
Yeah, I love the way you said that. That’s exactly what this is, helping them rewrite their own story or write their own story from scratch in some ways. And what you described about your internship is exactly what I see. So you have it, if you have a job at age 15 or 16, you can work in that field and be like, I don’t want to do this. Like I don’t want to work at a coffee shop my whole life. Or you talk to other adults who have lived their experiences and they’re telling you, know, maybe they’re working in a coffee shop because they’re retired, but they had a career. You’re in that world of adulthood. And all of a sudden you’re like, I want to be that. And in order to be that, I’ve kind of sort of stay motivated and I’m motivated because I want to be in that world. So I think that that’s key, that ability to work and be responsible and have other people reflect. that you’re good at this is a really powerful tool.

Debbie:
Yeah. Yeah. And even if it’s not a paying job, it could be volunteering or just showing up in a meaningful way in your community. So you feel like I have something to contribute. So, okay, we’re going to wrap up, but I’m just thinking if a parent is kind of maybe even stuck in a, cycle of, you know, trying to actively motivate their child and they’re not getting the results they want and they’ve listened to this, they’re going to get the workbook and they want to shift to more of a partnership. or a consultant relationship with our kids. What would be a good starting place for them?

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
So I think what I might start with is talking about what’s getting them stuck and stalled. So I would start with reflecting what you’re seeing and saying, I’m seeing you and it could be anything, but you should be very clear as to what you’re seeing, not like you seem very out of it or you don’t seem motivated. That’s not helpful. To be able to say, when you come home from school, I see that you go to your room. and you don’t seem very, whatever it is, you’re not talking as much, you’re not doing this, tell me about this. So talking about what you’re seeing very concretely, even sharing a little bit about why that makes you anxious and why this is concerning to you, and then giving them the space to talk about that. And that’s where you can kind of pull in things from the workbook, even if they’re not ready for that, you can pull in things and think about, okay, well, You know, things like, like there’s an activity. Well, when was the last time you had fun? And so, okay, well, you know, you don’t seem like you’re having a lot of fun right now. When’s the last time you had fun? What was it about that time that was fun for you? What were you doing? What’s changed since then? So a lot of different things you kind of just put in the back of your mind as a parent and think, okay, I’m going to pull this one out. but giving them the space to talk about that and not talking as much. So that is a key sort of thing with motivation is not sort of saying, I think you’d do great at this. I think you should be this. That is not necessarily the most helpful. Unless it’s paired with, I think you’d be great at this. You think I’m right? You think I’m wrong? Why? And leaving it open to them as opposed to us putting our own expectations on our kids.

Debbie:
If you’re not watching this and you’re just listening, as Ellen said that I felt very seen. I had to laugh when, you know, not talking as much, that is something I’m really working on doing is being comfortable with just asking a curious question and then just waiting and seeing what my child has to respond.

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
it’s so hard. It’s the hardest thing ever. And especially when they’re struggling. It’s like the more kids struggle, the more we want to fill the void. And it’s actually the opposite. The more they’re struggling, the more we should be available and listening to what their struggles are about. Because we want to name them, we want to put it in a story, we want to put it in a box and move on. And that’s just not how it is. That’s not how that works.

Debbie:
Yeah, yeah. Well, this has been such a great conversation. I love this topic too. I find it super interesting. And I’m going to name the book again. It’s called the Motivation Mindset Workbook, and Tweens Discover What They Love to Do. It’s a great tool that you can do with your kids. Depending on who your child is, you might leave it lying around and see if they will engage with it on their own. But yeah, I just want to say thank you so much. And is there a specific place that you would like listeners to connect with you?

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
So my website is Ellenbraatenphd.com. There’s a lot of information on there, a lot of information about motivation and how to order the book. can get the book from any, order it from any bookstore, any online bookstore. And yeah, and I do think, I think you’re right. It’s the sort of thing that you can kind of leave around because teens and tweens love to talk about themselves. The book is all about talking about themselves. we tried to make the activities as little writing as possible, but they kind of love understanding themselves more. So leaving it around can be a way to engage them with the workbook.

Debbie:
Yeah, and I you know, I say this all the time. But I think helping our kids deeply understand themselves is the best possible thing that we can do for our kids. Because when they grow up, and whatever their launch looks like, them knowing who they are, and what they need to be successful is, is really what we want to empower them with. So this workbook really helps them kind of figure that out. So yeah, so thank you so much. And congratulations on the book. And thanks for coming by the show again.

Dr. Ellen Braaten:
Thanks for having me again. I really enjoyed it.