Helping Empaths and Highly Sensitive Kids Thrive with Dr. Judith Orloff

Debbie:
Hey, Dr. Orloff, welcome to the show.

Dr. Judith Orloff:
Thank you, I’m happy to be here.

Debbie:
I am really honored to have you here. I think this is gonna be such an interesting conversation. And I’ve read your formal bio, but you have such a presence in this space and what we’re gonna be talking about today. Would you take a few minutes to talk about your kind of personal why for the work that you do in the world?

Dr. Judith Orloff:
Mm-hmm. Well, I’m a psychiatrist at UCLA and I supervise psych residents and I’m also in private practice and I’m an empath and so I combine my traditional psychiatric skills with being an empath and helping others who are empaths or highly sensitive people come into their power and learn how to set boundaries, practice self-care and know when their energy is being drained so they could take alone time. So I give a lot of techniques on helping highly sensitive and empathic people to enjoy their gifts and come into their own gifts. And the reason I got into this was because I was a very highly sensitive child. I would be sensitive to noise, sight, smells, sounds, talking, crowds and I didn’t know what was going on and my parents would say, you’re overly sensitive. And that it feels terrible when you’re a little girl and you’re being told you’re overly something because it’s how you are. And it’s not overly anything. It’s just who I am. But I had no support then. And so part of my healing path has been coming into my own power as an empath and highly sensitive person. And just having so much fun with it. And of course, incorporating it with science and working with patients. So, you know, that’s been my healing path and I want to share it with others. That’s why I feel really strongly about the highly sensitive rabbit because I want the children to know about this so they didn’t have to struggle like I did and like so many of us do when we’re alone and we have these abilities and people say derogatory things or shame us or bullying us. Or just don’t understand us and exile us. I wanted to make a difference for kids and turn that around so that it doesn’t happen to them. Or if it does happen to them, they know how to deal with it right away.

Debbie: 

Yeah. Right. Yeah, that’s so wonderful. I guess maybe just so we’re all on the same page, I’m sure many or most of our listeners have heard of the word, you know, of an empath or have an idea in their mind about what it is. But how would you define it just so we’re all talking about the same thing?

Dr. Judith Orloff:
Well, an empath and highly sensitive are very similar. An empath is always highly sensitive, and that means they’re sensitive to, let’s say, labels scratching their skin or materials that are not comfortable or too much light or too much sound or too many people or too busy and then feeling overwhelmed. And being an empath, they’re absorbing the emotional energy and stress of others in the world, whereas just highly sensitive people might or might not do that, but empaths always do that, where there’s sponges. feel like I’m just, when I’m around certain stressors, it’s really easy just to take it in quickly before my mind or anything can do anything. So I’m aware of that and it’s important if you’re an emotional sponge to really look at that and learn techniques how not to do that. It’s not a healthy thing to do that. Stress is everywhere. So if you’re absorbing and want to help everybody, then that’s not going to be healthy for you. Finding balance is key.

Debbie:
Yeah. so, okay. So some of the things you defined as being highly sensitive, I also think of sensory processing differences. So are they one in the same or are they overlapping?

Dr. Judith Orloff:
I think so. The only disagreement with that is that it’s sensory processing, at least it used to be a disorder. And I don’t, this is no disorder, but sensory processing traits I will support. But the language is very important here.

Debbie:
Yeah, agreed. So I’m curious to know too then, just like with having ADHD or any type of neurodivergence, this is how someone is wired from a brain science point of view, what is actually happening? Is it related to how the brain is processing? Is it related to the nervous system? I’m really curious to know what’s actually going on.

Dr. Judith Orloff:
Well, I wrote a basic book on empaths and how what they are taking a test to see whether you’re an empath and different subjects, you know, like brain processing and love and work and health and how to deal with all the basics. It’s called the empath survival guide. So that’s the basic book that I wrote for empaths and highly sensitive people. But in terms of where these things come from, it can be biochemical. For instance, dopamine is a neurochemical that is processed very differently by empathic and non-empathic people. Dopamine is a pleasure hormone. Empaths can get fed by much less dopamine. Like if we read a book or we take a walk in a forest, we’re gonna be fed by that. And versus having to take a walk in the forest, go out to dinner, go to a concert. Then go out for coffee afterwards. That’s too much for us. So the biochemistry is different. And also there’s a neuronal system in the brain called the mirror neurons, which are the compassion neurons. And it’s been thought, postulated, that people who have empathy and who are empaths have a hyperactive mirror neuron system, meaning their compassion is on full tilt, to use your word. And it’s just on full tilt. So you’re feeling a lot of compassion for everybody, every animal, every little creature. So it can get a bit much if you don’t know how to center yourself. And so in that sense, I think we are wired differently because for me, when I hold something in my hand, it’s like holding it with 50 fingers instead of five. And that’s just, I feel things. I’m just wired to have very high senses. And we all are who are highly sensitive. That’s just who we are. And you can’t assume other people process information in the same way. And that’s, know, in this book, I wanted to make that clear that Aurora, who’s the main character in our heroine, the highly sensitive rabbit, her brothers don’t process the world in the same way as she does. Now, she’s very emotional and very open to nature, but her brothers don’t and her parents don’t. And so part of what we need to do is accept our differences. Now, one is necessarily better than the other. I’m just more interested in this because it’s who I was and it’s part of my journey and I want to help others with it. But it’s not better or worse. It’s just different. It’s learning to accept differences. We’re so different. Everybody is different and we’re the same basically. We’re both.

Debbie:
Yeah, and it is, as you’re talking about, I feel that there is so much misunderstanding as you said, like you’re too sensitive, you’re overly sensitive. I think it is one of those differences, neurodifferences that is so often misunderstood because it’s just not something most people are aware of, especially because of the way that it might be expressed, right? It might be expressed especially by a child in shutting down or maybe crying or in ways that could just be interpreted very differently and then responded to in a very different way to try to get that behavior or that response to be what some might consider to be more appropriate.

Dr. Judith Orloff:
Exactly, and one common thing that happens to highly sensitive children is that they might get on sensory overload, meaning too much is coming too fast. And that’s extremely agitating. I mean, I could speak to that. I mean, I’ve experienced sensory overload a number of times in my life, and it takes a while to calm down and bring yourself back. And in those states, the child or the adult, you know, should not say anything to make any pronouncements because they tend to say the wrong thing at that time. So the best thing one can do for a child is to calm them down and to put them in a very calm environment. Like Aurora goes out and watches the moon. That’s her calm in place alone. She goes alone to watch the moon. But your child or the children listening, you need to find a place where you could calm down your secret happy place where nobody can bother you. that bringing down of the stimulation level will help enormously to come back to themselves.

Debbie:
So yeah, in reading your book and listeners, we’ll talk. First of all, let me just kind of mention Judith has written a number of books, probably some of which you listeners have read or familiar with the genius of empathy, thriving as an empath, the empath survival guide, but she has a new book for children, which is what kind of sparked having this conversation today. It’s called The Highly Sensitive Rabbit. And yeah, it’s just beautiful. It’s such a sweet, thoughtful book. And it’s really to help empathic children understand, as we’re saying, that there’s nothing wrong with them and this is their experience and how can we support them. One of the things that I have been thinking about in reading your work and in this conversation too is we talk a lot on this show about co-regulation, right? How our nervous systems are always talking to each other, or, you know, and that a lot of neurodivergent kids, they have a nervous system that’s more wired for threat, and that our job as parents and caregivers and educators can really be to help co-regulate to bring kids back to calm. So again, if we’re looking at like the Venn diagram of these things, you know, can you talk a little bit about the overlap here?

Dr. Judith Orloff:
Yes, it’s important that any kind of highly sensitive person that exists needs to know what triggers them, what sets them off, what’s too much sensory stimulation, and what can help them self-regulate. That’s really important. The parents can co-regulate, but the kids have to learn when I feel this way, if I’m in school and I just can’t stop crying. This is what I do. I go to the bathroom. I sit there or I go someplace where I can have privacy and take a breath and take another breath and learn to calm myself down. So you want to empower the kids with very simple tools, not complex. Complex won’t work. You want simple. Sometimes kids need to learn how to set a boundary and say no to other kids. And it’s very hard for them to do that because they don’t want to be rejected and disliked, so they have to learn how to do it in a really loving way. And just to be very caring, but to take care of themselves. And so you have neurodivergent, you have highly sensitive, it could be both or overlap. Whatever it is, you have to find what your baseline is, whatever it is, and make that your baseline and be happy about it. Be happy with who you are and what your baseline is. And identify stressful situations that might throw you off your center so you can be prepared in the future when they happen. Now, for instance, a stressful situation for me is going to the airport. I hate airports. Too noisy, too many people, too chaotic. Planes are backed up. It’s just horrible. I just don’t like it. And so I have to do special things for myself when I go to the airport, because I do travel and I teach. You give workshops and so you know, I may get a point for me to eat a really good protein meal before I go to the airport, you know, and just have that grounding in my body, because you don’t want your blood sugar low when you’re in a stressful situation. So you have to ask yourself and your child if you’ve, know, in whatever situation triggers you know, what are, what are the triggers? What can I expect? How can I practice this before the actual event happens? And it’s good to practice with the parents or a friend.

You know, if this is the bully, let’s say you’re encountering bullying, which is common with highly sensitive kids, neurodivergent kids, know, anyone, the bully targets as different, you know, and that’s, you know, very difficult. And, but, but the way to deal with it is to mobilize your forces immediately. Don’t leave that child alone. You know, have the parents come, have the uncles come, have whoever likes the child, cares for the child, come to school and meet with the school people and immediately help them, immediately intervene. Do not let something like this go on. And some schools are more open to it than others, but you still have to bear your weight on this and really come in. It’s just so key. Cause when you have a chronic bully with somebody who’s considered different, can require a lot of therapy later on in life to find out what was happening and to heal. It’s very damaging to the kids. And, you know, in my view, I’m idealistic, but I do believe it’s possible. The schools should support everybody, whatever their baseline is, and to help everybody with their neurological differences, with their ideological differences, whatever, to live as one and to really have a lot of emphasis on unity, you know, rather than splitting. Now the splitting, it’s borderline splitting, borderline split one against another, or I’m better than you and you’re nothing, you know, you’re different, ha ha, and making fun of the child. And you know, that’s not okay, you can’t let that go on.

Debbie:
Yeah, mean, in thinking about kids in school, again, if this is something that educators are not really aware of, they may not recognize that actually this, you know, sometimes there can be a sense of, we’ll let them figure it out, or this is just what kids do. And, you know, and as you said, a lot of harm can be done if our kids are really empathic and they are experiencing exclusion or whatever it looks like just being misunderstood in those spaces. So I appreciate that reminder of just parents kind of being advocates for their kids in schools and other places where they might come up against this stuff. When I first heard the word empath in relation to a kid, I think it was with a friend whose son, highly gifted kiddo, was like a caterpillar. Some animal died in his backyard. And I don’t know if he was responsible for it, but it was something he cared about deeply. And it really, really stayed with him for a while. It was like a big dip. so that was the first, I was like, wow, that’s a rough way to move through the world if you feel so deeply for things that are so outside of your control. What might be some signs that a parent would be like, gosh, I think this is what’s going on with my child. They’re feeling things in such a deep way that it really needs some special attunement or attention.

Dr. Judith Orloff:
Right. Well, I think that’s a great example because little sensitive children love creatures, everything, the little fish and the crabs, if you’re walking by body of water or the caterpillars. Or one wonderful thing to do with these kids, and this is what I do with myself, is that we raise butterflies and you get a milkweed plant and the mama monarch comes and lays the eggs and then the cocoon is formed and in two weeks the butterfly comes out. So it’s a beautiful way for adults, sensitive adults to enjoy, to see the first flight of a butterfly is so exciting. And so to do that with the children, now it’s very nice, but not all butterflies make it. And so the child has to know, it’s the beginning of a very interesting conversation of what life is and how long does it last. And you know, that we will all you know, go the way of, you know, of the butterfly, you know, and at some point, but that’s okay, you know, to take away the fear of death, but keep it light. Don’t get into a deep, deep conversation, but just keep it, you know, this is a great thing. And we do lose, that’s part of being alive. There is loss and it is hard to deal with. I know what you mean. And you’re going to miss your friend. I’m going to miss your friend. As hard as it is, this is life. And to say it in a sweet way and not long, you know, in a long conversation, just short, this is just the nature of nature and life. It’s construction, deconstruction. So you want to talk to these children, even if they’re young, and even if you think maybe they’re not fully understanding what you’re saying, they’re seeing your eyes, they’re hearing your tone of voice, and they’re seeing their friend who passed away.

You know, so they’re connecting all of that with some kind of healing and some kind of you care. You’re explaining we’re talking about this together as opposed to what’s wrong with you that you’re so upset about a caterpillar. What’s wrong with you? Why are you making such a big deal out of nothing? I mean, I’ve heard what parents say, you know, and it’s really painful for me to hear it, but they do say it. And so that’s the reality. And if you say it. You might say it out of frustration. I’m not judging the parent at all. Not at all, but I just think it’s necessary to learn how to reach the child in a different way. And that’s why I wanted to write this children’s book was to give parents options. And especially if you’re a highly sensitive parent raising a highly sensitive child, that’s a lot of sensitivity going on.

Debbie:
Yes, indeed. So I’d love to spend a few minutes talking about the gifts of being an empath. if it’s okay with you, I’d like to read one of the last lines from your book, which I just thought was so beautiful. At the end, Aurora is sitting with her mother and really talking about the beauty of the world. And you wrote, being sensitive did often make it harder being in the world, but it helped her see its wild and glorious beauty too. And it was just such a beautiful sentiment. I’d love it if you could expand on that and talk about the gifts that come with being a highly sensitive or empathic person.

Dr. Judith Orloff:
The gifts are being able to experience something so deeply that you can feel the intense and wild beauty of it. To feel the beauty of the moon or the wind or the sunset, watching a gorgeous sunset or the birds flying. You can feel it. It’s not just, isn’t this pretty? Like some people experience it. It’s a whole body experience with the highly sensitive child and the adults. And with me, it’s a whole body experience of experiencing beauty and taking it on. Because I do allow myself to do that. It’s such a beautiful experience. It’s with the stress that I want to keep more at a distance and not take on in my own body. And so the ability to connect to nature and animals and plants and beauty and people to care genuinely about each other. This is such a gift because so many narcissists and people in the world don’t really care about other people unless they’re the immediate family. They don’t care about our human family. And empaths feel that unity. Empathic children have a sense of that unity. That unity matters to us. And they’re coming together. And they’re not warring. Empaths are not a warring lot. They do not like war. They don’t want to continue war. And so that’s why they’re perfect stewards of the earth because they’re the ones who will protect the earth and all its healthiness and all its vibrance because it’s natural for us. It’s not a dilemma. It’s just something we sense and know. And so the ability to sense and know and to have empathy for others and particularly if you’re a teacher and healthcare or parent, that you can sense what’s going on in other people and your children. And so you need to begin to trust that. Empaths are very intuitive and they feel their gut feelings. They feel what doesn’t feel right, what does feel right. They feel the red flags stay away or go closer. Is it a good thing? No, they’re very open. But again, the downside is being an emotional sponge. But the empaths will probably go into something like the arts or the healing professions or teaching or some way to connect to others. But they might do better in an environment that’s quieter and smaller. I don’t like big offices or anything like that. And so, you know, there’s too much going on, but a nice room with some nice light in it, that’s one style as an empath.

Each person has to find their own style, you have to assert it. You have to speak your needs. And that’s true in relationships. That’s true with your children. Sometimes you need to say, mommy needs to take a break now. I’m not feeling centered. I’m going to go in the bedroom and just take a few breaths. Yeah, that’s healthy. It’s healthy modeling for children. If you do what you want them to do, then they’ll do it. More likely to do it.

Debbie:
Yeah, I wanted to ask you because you mentioned war and peace and, you know, one of my questions in preparing for this conversation was just thinking about the time that we’re living in right now, which is a really intense time in the world. And, and I can imagine for parents who are raising highly empathic kids, they’re feeling a lot of big feelings and, you know, I’m just wondering your thoughts on when there are particularly disruptive times in the world. What are some ways that parents can provide extra support for kids who are really feeling it and getting overwhelmed by what’s happening?

Dr. Judith Orloff:
By not making it your dinner conversation, by not getting into big arguments over ideas in front of your children. I don’t think that’s necessarily healthy. Protect them. You need to protect them from all the horrors that are going on. It’s not going to help them to be inundated with it. It’s going to help them to have a real childhood. It’s going to help them to… You know, go for a walk after dinner and look at all the birds and notice all the beautiful life forms that are here. That will help them. So with very young children, I don’t think it’s helpful really to expose them much, but they’ll hear about it. And you could say, yes, you know, these people are having trouble getting along and we can wish the best for them. We can wish that they work this out. You know, and send them some good, loving energy, but it’s not good, honey, to take it on or feel like it’s your job to take on that stress. That’s not your job. No, it’s not your job. It’s their job to work this out. But in the meantime, you could send them good energy or positive vibes or whatever words you use to describe it in your family. As you can send, and this is true for adults, you just send people this kind of prayer from the heart and it will go somewhere. That’s one thing that I’ve learned in terms of my study of energy medicine is that there’s an energy that we give off as well. And there’s a heart energy, there’s a head energy, different kinds. But if you focus on your heart and you truly just wanna send those you don’t even know but care about anyways, that’s the good energy. will go somewhere. It’s like a little bird flying off to where it’s supposed to go. So I hope you can try to believe in that. And if not, that’s fine too. Everything I’m saying is you must bring it into your own belief system and what feels good to you.

Debbie:
Yeah. And really honor and respect who our kids are and how they’re moving through the world. I want to just mention your book again. The new book for children is called The Highly Sensitive Rabbit. You co-wrote it with Jennifer Adams and the artist by, the art is beautiful. It’s just such a gorgeous book. It’s by Katie Tanis. And can you talk a little bit before we wrap up just what you hope it does in the world? You know, this was a departure for you to write a children’s book. So what is your greatest hope for it?

Dr. Judith Orloff:
My greatest hope is that it can help children have an easier time being highly sensitive and have some fun with it and grow up into their adult selves and honor it and use it and never be ashamed of it. And also how to take care of themselves if they feel too much or they’re too overwhelmed. I want to help them with that with some techniques early on, as early as we can get them. you can even just teach an infant to put the hand over their heart, just to hold it like the mother puts the hand like this, it’s soothing, self soothing techniques. so, and I hope the children and the adults love the illustrations and can allow themselves to enjoy the beautiful colors of the desert and the animals who are all different from one another and have different messages to give Aurora, the highly sensitive bunny on how to be a sensitive person. And so when we have those kind of teachers, that’s really nice. I wish we had more of them, you know, but the parents can be the teachers or the grandparents or the educators. My God, I hope this book gets in the schools. That’s one of my hopes. But to help the children be in good shape because they’re going to inherit the world. You know, it’s not going to be that much time. Time goes so fast. And so you need them to be. Empaths and sensitive people who are in good shape, not those who are just beaten down all the time and exhausted.

Debbie:
Yeah. I imagine without being able to set those boundaries and just like moving through the world as this kind of open vessel, this open receiver over time can lead to burnout and can be really intense for people if they don’t have those strategies.

Dr. Judith Orloff:
Most definitely, but with the strategies, you don’t have to go down that route. So this is very fixable if you do certain things. And that’s what I just want to get across to everyone. You’re not, if anyone pathologized you, just don’t believe it. You must first start with, I an empath? And what can I do to feel better? Because most people don’t bring that into the diagnosis. It’s, you an empath? Are you a highly sensitive person? And how does that affect your life? You know, but you must, and that’s what I’m suggesting to you is that you must consider that. And you can take the assessment test. Are you an empath that’s in the empath survival guide and see how much of an empath you are. There are 20 simple questions. It’s not rocket science. You’ll be able to self-diagnose yourself and go, isn’t that interesting? Now, this is OK. This is who I am. Or this isn’t who I am. And if you’re not an empath, that’s fine too. Don’t worry about it.

Debbie:
Yeah, but I just imagine it’s so validating. just as so many adults are discovering their neurodivergence, just to kind of realize, there’s nothing wrong with me. This is a way of moving through the world, and I relate to this. Almost it’s giving yourself permission to just really surrender into who you are and not judge it. Just be OK with it.

Dr. Judith Orloff:
Thanks. Absolutely, absolutely. to just come from your heart. Try and bring some heart into the world towards yourself. Very important to be self-compassionate and self-empathic. Now, I write a lot about that in the Genius of Empathy, how important self-empathy is. That we have to be able to talk to ourselves in nicer ways. And practice it. It takes practice.

Debbie:
Yes, that’s so true. Gosh. Okay. I’m going to wrap this up and I just, first of all, want to say thank you so much for this conversation. And I really encourage listeners to explore. I’ll have a pretty extensive show notes page because I want you to see all of the, well, I couldn’t capture all the work that you’ve done, but I’ll share the books that you’ve written in this space and some videos that you’ve got available on YouTube to really dive into this. You’ve got some great things. I went down a little rabbit hole myself. And also, of course, I will have a link to the new book called The Highly Sensitive Rabbit. It is, again, a beautiful book, and it would be the kind of book that you just would want to read with your kiddo over and over again, I think.Thank you so much, Dr. Orloff, for joining me and for everything that you shared today. So appreciate it.

Dr. Judith Orloff:
You’re very welcome.