Dr. Emily Kline on How Motivational Interviewing Helps Kids Get Unstuck

Debbie:

Hey Emily, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Emily Kline:

Thank you. I’m thrilled to be here.

Debbie:

I’m thrilled that you accepted my invitation. always like, yeah, when I randomly, you’re like, who is this person who invited me to come and talk about this? But I really appreciate that you said yes to my invitation.

Dr. Emily Kline:

Anytime and you can edit this out if you want but your name is extremely similar to my neighbors who is Debbie Reader. Is that funny?

Debbie:

Really? And is the last name spelled R-E-A-D-E-R? R-E-D-E-R. Wow. OK, that’s kind of weird. OK, well, I hope that your neighbor is a nice person in representing Debbie’s well. OK, cool. OK, so we are going to be talking about motivational interviewing today. And I’m really excited about it. As we were talking before I hit record, think it is such a powerful tool for listeners of the show to have in their toolbox. And it’s something we’ve kind of talked around before in shows, but I really want to just kind of explore it with you today. And we’ll get into that. But actually, I would love it if you want to tell us a little bit about your story in terms of how you became a researcher and a thought leader in this space.

Dr. Emily Kline:

Absolutely, so flattered by that description. But I am, by training, a clinical psychologist. And I’ve worked in all kinds of settings across my career. But a lot of the work I did was I ended up specializing for many years in working with teenagers and sort of transition age young adults who were experiencing a first episode of a more serious mental illness. So that could be like a problem, a more serious problem with addiction, an episode of bipolar disorder, or a first episode of psychosis. And that kind of, you know, engaged my interest in developmental psychology and working with kids, but also in working with families because I think it’s one of the trickiest situations around is kids get older in there, they have more autonomy, they need more autonomy, but they’re struggling, right? So you have to engage with their parents as well. I worked for a long time with these families of adolescents who were really swimming in the deep end and trying to stay afloat through mental health crises and just found that incredibly interesting. 

And then I had my own kids and I started to realize that a lot of the advice I was giving people I realized what was good and what was bad, advice essentially. To some extent, I think I had been a little overconfident in some things and underconfident in others and started to really philosophically explore more for myself as a parent and also with the families I was working with these issues of control and the ways in which we do and don’t control our children’s behaviors, personalities, choices, destinies. So that’s sort of where I’m coming from philosophically in terms of my day to day. You know, I’ve always worked with families. I’ve done everything right now. I work in primary care, pediatrics working with families who maybe have a question about, know, is this behavior normal? Is this something to worry about? Can you treat this? Or I’ve worked in research settings, I’ve led studies, and I’ve worked in more serious mental illness clinics as well.

Debbie:

Wow. Such a fascinating background. And I know that there are listeners who have kids who either have or are currently navigating those more serious mental health challenges. So swimming in the deep end, think, is such an accurate description of that and what a heavy and scary thing that is to experience. And I also just want to mention you said thinking about what parents do and don’t control about our kids, right? And you know, what I’ve learned the hard way and with lots of, you know, my own research of my case study of one, I have a almost 21 year old kiddo now is that actually I just have like no control over anything as much as I have tried. And also, you know, we talking before I hit record that Ned Johnson and Bill Stixrud in their book, The Self-Driven Child, and we’ve had them on the show multiple times, but they’re always saying like that is the most important thing is for, especially for our kids is to have a sense of control, right? It is such a critical part of no matter how they’re wired, like everybody wants to feel that. Is that what you have found?

Dr. Emily Kline:

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that the premise of what I do comes from the idea that people make better choices when they feel that sense of control. All the time I’m talking with teenagers and they explain their behaviors in terms of what other people want. Like, well, my mom wants this and my dad wants that. And when I ask them, what do you want? It’s like, their head almost spins around, like they don’t really think about their autonomy. And once they start thinking about it, it’s really interesting to them. So I think it’s it’s, it’s, we all do have some degree of autonomy in our choices, but we don’t always talk to our kids in a way that recognizes that and encourages that.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yeah. And as you’re saying that, what do you want? I don’t think any adult in my life asked me that question ever until maybe I was in grad school and my advisor asked me that question. So I imagine, and we’ll talk about this too, that there’s a lot of parents’ own work around this idea of control and letting go of control and showing up for our kids in a way that supports their autonomy that has to be done. But before we go deep, let’s zoom out and talk about motivational interviewing, which is what we’re talking about today. So again, it’s been mentioned here or there on the show, but we’ve never even explained what the concept is. So would you mind explaining it and how it might differ from some other types of parenting approaches that parents might use?

Dr. Emily Kline:

Sure, and I’m going to start by talking about it as a therapeutic strategy because that’s how it was developed. So it’s not like a set of tasks or like things to learn. So it’s a little bit different than like CBT or sort of ABA, behavior activation, that kind of thing. It’s really just a way of having conversations about behavior. And it was developed in the 1980s, 1990s by psychologists who were working with adults with alcohol use disorders and other addictions. And what they found is that, you know, some therapeutic styles are really confrontational, right? Like we’ve all seen the show, what was it called?

Debbie:

Shrinking?

Dr. Emily Kline:

Not Shrinking, the older one, where they bring like everyone you love into the room and they have like an intervention. Yeah. my gosh, I’m looking at it too. So I think it was just called Intervention. And, you know, it’s this sort of, we have to sort of shame people and overwhelm people into accepting the idea that they have to change. Right, so the only way to get through to these people who are in denial about the problem that they have is to overwhelm them with evidence by bringing everyone who they care about into the room and having those people list all the reasons that, you’re drinking is a problem and we have to kind of shame you into changing. And what these psychologists, Dr. Rollnick and Dr. Miller wrote, which I think is such a beautiful insight, is that most of the time, people who have a problem with drinking know they have a problem with drinking. They’re not completely in denial. It’s more accurate to say that they’re ambivalent, that part of them would like to stop drinking or cut down on drinking, but part of them doesn’t want to change. And maybe that’s because the drinking is serving some purpose or the idea of change is really hard and overwhelming. Right? So motivational interviewing is a set of sort of communication tools that when you use them together creates a conversation that’s meant to elicit ambivalence. Like what’s the part of you that wants to change and what’s the part of you that doesn’t want to change and to explore that ambivalence and to help people think about what they really want and whether they’re able to make choices that are more in line with those values and goals.

Debbie:

It’s so fascinating. Then, you know, working with young adults who were navigating these significant mental health challenges, you found that employing the same strategy with young adults and adolescents was just as effective.

Dr. Emily Kline:

Yes, so that’s right. So over the years, before my career started, people did lots of great studies showing that motivational interviewing is a really useful tool for treating addictions. And then I trained in it in that capacity when I was in school. And then when I started practicing more independently, I realized, this is a tool for talking about any kind of behavior change. It doesn’t have to be substance use specific. So we can use strategies from the motivational interviewing playbook to have better conversations about things like going to sleep at the same time every night or getting outside every day or doing homework, right? Things that are like everyday behavioral choices that youth are just as ambivalent about those things as, you know, older patients with addictions might be about their substance use.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s great. And I’m glad that you said that too, because for listeners, this isn’t just for kids who are going through heavy stuff. It really is something, as you’ll see when we get into it, that you can just use as a way of communicating while building a relationship across anything, really. I think that you’re navigating. It’s just such a powerful and simple, in many ways, tool. OK, so you’ve kind of given us an overview of what motivational interviewing is. So hopefully people are curious and ready. OK, what do I need to do? Because as we were just saying, this is a way to talk about really anything and kind of navigate potential conflicts or areas of stuckness. There’s just a lot, especially listeners of this show that we’re kind of trying to figure out, how do I do this? How do we handle this? So would you walk us through kind of the three main tools of the motivational interview model?

Dr. Emily Kline:

Yes, okay. So the first tool I wanna talk about is reflections, which is really kind of simple, but not easy. It’s just repeating back what somebody else is saying and getting them really talking and opening up. And the reason that we do reflections is that we may feel like we have advice to give, but two things tend to be true in these conversations. One is that people don’t usually want our advice until they feel like we really get them, right? So when we listen, they listen. There has to be like a firm sense of like this person really gets me and cares about me. And even if that’s true in general, like I might understand my kids very well as people. But if I wanna give them advice about a particular social dynamic that they’re struggling with at school, I have to make sure I understand that specific dilemma, right? And so I really wanna understand what’s going on. And reflections are a way to get into it. So I like to talk really concretely. That’s just always how I operate best. So can you give me like, I don’t know, like a dilemma that might come up that, you know, you hear about from the parents who… Yeah.

Debbie:

Yeah, I mean, where do I start? The one that popped into my head as soon as you asked that question is the kid who is not taking care of personal hygiene in a way that a parent thinks they should be doing, showering, brushing teeth, that stuff.

Dr. Emily Kline:

Yes, okay, great. So for these particular conversations, I like to just kind of start with the I’ve noticed tool and say like, hey, I noticed that whatever you notice, something that’s a fact, right? Not an opinion. Like I noticed that your toothbrush is on your dresser, right? Like implying that it hasn’t been used in a couple of days or I noticed that your hair, I noticed that you last took a shower on Sunday, something like that. And then just stop talking and see what the other person says, because you’re gonna get so much information from their response, right? Like they might respond in a way that is kind of vague, like, oh, I don’t know. I don’t know what you’re talking about. They might get defensive, like, well, it’s because I couldn’t because, the shower that you had all that stuff hanging up in there and how was I supposed to go take a shower when all that stuff was there? Or they might be like, oh, okay, I’ll go do it now. Right? Like, you’ll get a lot of information about where they’re at with this issue, just by putting an observation out into the world. So let’s say that, you know, they say, well, I couldn’t shower because last night we got home so late from that thing you made me go to. And then this morning there was too much stuff in the bathroom because you hung the laundry in there and I couldn’t move it. Right? Like sort of a defensive kind of posture. Okay, great.

Debbie:

Yep, I could see that happening, yes.

Dr. Emily Kline:

I’m glad that sounds realistic. So the reflection then is not to say, so there was too much stuff in the shower in the shower for you to get in there. Just repeat it back or there hasn’t been we haven’t had a lot of free time this week. And repeat it back and see where it goes. And when you repeat it back, instead of kind of arguing the point or telling somebody why they’re wrong or getting into the logical weeds of is that a valid defense? We do a couple things. We show that we’re really interested, right? We’re showing non-judgment. We’re showing a tolerance for talking and listening about this sensitive issue that’s like, can handle a conversation about this. I just want to know what you think. And we’re in a very subtle way, getting at that autonomy issue that you raised earlier, right? Like, I’m not going right away to like, I’ll pay you 50 bucks to take a shower. Or if you don’t shower, we’re taking away your iPad for the day. But instead sort of like, I’m curious about you. I’m curious about your process, what’s going on for you. So a reflection is just a subtle way to kind of get started and convey these things like I’m listening. I’m interested in your internal life. I’m not going to put you down or try and control you.

Debbie:

And so it’s validating, right? Would you consider it to be a reflection to be a validation? Or is that something different? Like, maybe that’s more emotional.

Dr. Emily Kline:

You know, I think a reflection is actually just kind of putting my own opinions completely on ice, if that makes sense. So I’m not saying, I agree with you. We’ve been way too busy this week for you to take a shower. I’m just saying, I’m kind of just saying, okay, I’m not gonna focus on what I think. I’m gonna just focus on you and show that I’m listening to you. So I’m not going to say, you’re right or no, you’re wrong. Right. So I do think of it as a little bit different from validation because I’m simply showing that I hear you and I can say it back.

Debbie:

And sorry, I’m asking really specific questions, but would you say, I hear you say blah, blah, blah, or is that, that’s not even part of it, or is it, or could be?

Dr. Emily Kline:

Okay, so if you go this, we’re really getting in the weeds of the MI sort of dark in here, but that’s okay. So if you go to an MI training for therapists, they’ll really discourage that because, know, it’s, but I think I teach parents and non-clinical professionals, know, foster parents, all kinds of people working in social services how to do this. And so I think of that statement as those, it sounds like, or I’m hearing you say that, to me that’s training wheels. And training wheels are great for when you’re getting started with trying out these skills. So it’s kind of like training wheels because you’re reminding yourself, okay, don’t say what I think, say what they’re thinking, right? Just reminding yourself to do that reflection. And as you practice it and it becomes more natural you don’t need that as much

Debbie:

Right, so you just be like, there are a lot of clothes hanging in the shower, or you’re literally just mirroring back what they said. Am I getting that right? Yeah, okay.

Dr. Emily Kline:

Yeah, totally. And people think it’s gonna sound awkward or feel awkward, but if somebody does a reflection to you, it feels so good. It’s just like, this person’s really listening.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yeah, that makes total sense. And I’ve heard you say how important it is to just leave a lot of room to reflect and then just kind of wait, because our kids might not respond. They might be like, that’s weird. Why is she repeating what I just said? But we want to not fill the space with what we want to say next. We want to kind of say the reflection and then stop talking.

Dr. Emily Kline:

Stop talking. Yeah. And I have worked with so many kids struggling with different kinds of cognitive profiles or mental health needs and different kinds of neurodivergence. And some people just need a minute, you know? And I think that can be one of the most basic ways of making a conversation more smooth and accessible is to stop talking and give somebody a minute to think about what you said and gather their thoughts and just give them a second to respond.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s great. OK, so sorry. I could talk about reflecting for an hour, but we’re not going to do that. We’re going to move on to the second part of this framework, which I believe is. Yeah, you say it. Yes.

Dr. Emily Kline:

Yes, so the second part, the second skill that I teach people to do is to ask good, open-ended, non-judgmental questions. And you can start with questions or you can start with a reflection in these conversations. There is no right way to do it. But I always teach reflections first because most people kind of already know how to ask a good question, even if they don’t always remember to do it. But reflections are often like a new concept for people. So I lead with those open-ended questions or questions that don’t have a right or wrong answer that cannot be answered in like one word and a curious question is a question that you don’t already know the answer to. So a question you might know the answer to is like when did you last take a shower? You know. Right, it’s been a few days, it’s been too long. You know the answer, that’s not like a curious question. A more curious question could be, what’s getting in the way or what might make it a little bit easier or what do you like or dislike about showers or which you know if you live in a house with two bathrooms like which bathroom do you think is set up better for you? What do you like about it? Right, like really getting curious about things you might not know about the hygiene.

Debbie:

Yeah. Right. And so not a leading question. I think that’s really important. So just to clarify, we were talking about asking curious questions. I always think about like we often have an agenda when we ask questions. Maybe I should restate that I often have an agenda when I’m asking a question. just to reiterate, this is important that we’re not asking leading questions, right? We’re just fully, we don’t know what the answer is, right?

Dr. Emily Kline:

Right, like I always tell parents like you’re not, you know, on Law and Order like you’re not trying to prove. Don’t you think that your school will go better for you if you take a shower today? Like we’re not, we’re not kind of setting up questions that we have a strong guess at, you know, a correct answer. But really trying to think of things you don’t know, like what don’t you like about showers or What’s the best shower you ever took? Like, what was your favorite one? Or, you know, what are the situ… What makes it annoying to shower and just let them vent?

Debbie:

Right, right. Yeah, and if I may, I’m just gonna, know, before we hit record, I mentioned declarative language, which is something we’ve talked about on the show. Listeners, Linda Murphy is the author of a book called the Declarative Language Handbook. But for some of our kids who even ask a question might feel really demanding, right? So what is it you don’t like about showers? If we were to kind of use the declarative language, it would be like, I’m really curious to know what it is that makes showers so unpleasant for you or gosh, I’m really wondering what it is about showers. So it’s coming from us as opposed to the demand. So I just wanted to offer that little tweak as well. Okay, so just to go back, we’ve talked about reflections, we’ve talked about asking curious questions and those, it’s not necessarily a one and then the other, they’re kind of like, they’re different approaches. But then we get to the third tool, which is I think what we’re all like hoping we get to right is figuring out solutions. So what does that look like?

Dr. Emily Kline:

Yes. All right. So once we’ve been in question reflection, reflection question mode for a while and we feel pretty good about, OK, I’ve communicated that I’m interested in their perspective. I’m not trying to control the outcome. Then we kind of make that step into problem solving. Because ultimately we’re not just here to complain about showers. We do have a destination in mind. And that’s what makes motivational interviewing a little bit different than a purely sort of open-ended exploratory conversation, right? Like this is oriented toward behavior change and toward problem solving, we hope. So the way that I think we can make that transition smoothly is to ask our kids, like, what have you already tried? Right? Because it’s another open-ended curious question. And it’s one that is really strengths-based and gives them a lot of credit. Right? Like, I’m sure this is something you’ve thought about. How have you tried tackling this problem? And try and elicit strategies that have worked well, haven’t worked well. Again, we can go back to reflections anytime. so it sounds like showering before school really didn’t work. Like you were in such a rush and it was so stressful. Or it sounds like, you know, when I come and interrupt you in the middle of doing your homework, that hasn’t been so helpful. So using reflections to show, okay, I’m really interested in what they’ve tried. And then also asking like, what could work?

 

what might make it a little bit easier. And see if they have any good ideas that they might wanna try. And if they can suggest something, that’s great, right? Like your job is kind of done, all you have to do is support that solution. And another sort of principle of this practice motivational interviewing is that a lot of the times people do have the solutions to their problems somewhere in them in a way they know themselves better, maybe than I do, right? Like I might talk to teenagers all day about behavior change, but I don’t know the water heater situation at your house, right? Like that’s something you know about that I don’t know about. And so we need to, I need to rely on you and your expertise to find a solution that works for you. So if they can come up with a solution that’s a good idea, awesome. And if they can’t, or you feel like, you know, there’s something they don’t know that I know because I’m an adult and a parent and they’re not getting this, that’s when it’s time to give advice. Right? And it’s like, we’ve sort of, I almost put it as like we’ve earned the chance to give advice by doing a good job of listening and reflecting and being curious and encouraging them to solve their own problems. If I can give myself a check, check and check on that then I have earned my chance to give advice.

Debbie:

Okay, so I know the ways that I offer advice and I actually in learning about your work and checking out your book, I think I’m doing it kind of right, mostly most of the time, but how would we, when we find we’ve earned the opportunity to share our wisdom or to share our ideas, how do we approach that conversation with our kids?

Dr. Emily Kline:

I want to answer your question, but I also want to just dial in on something you said really quickly, which is that you’re doing it right. I might be just kind of way in my own head here, but I hate that language and I would never use that with parents. Like what’s right is what works for your family. So if people feel like what they’re doing isn’t working, this is something new to try but there’s no right. So if you’re doing something that works for you, that’s awesome. But yeah, of course. So, but if you want to try this strategy, if you feel like, okay, I have information, advice that they don’t have, I’m confident about that because I’ve thoroughly explored this person’s perspective. I might transition into giving that advice by being really explicit about it. 

Debbie:

Okay, yeah, I appreciate that. Yeah, thank you for that.

Dr. Emily Kline:

Oftentimes, people hear advice as criticism and react that way to it. So in order to avoid kind of detonating that particular conversational landmine, I like to announce what I’m about to do by saying something like, can I share some advice? Or even I struggled with that too when I was your age. Like, do you want to know what helps me? Or I feel like there’s, you might not want to hear it, but I just have to sort of share my perspective at this point, right? And so I’m announcing loud and clear, hey, I’m about to give some advice, brace yourself. And then I offer it and I don’t make a big case out of it. I just say, I feel like if you took your shower as soon as you get home from school, before you are bogged down by homework or just totally exhausted and done for the night, that might be worth trying and then ask again another curious question. What do you think of that?

Debbie:

Yeah, I love that. The language I tend to use is like, I’ve got some ideas. I have thoughts about this. If you want to know them, I’m happy to share them with you. But it’s totally your call. I don’t think there’s ever been a time that I’ve said that, that I haven’t then been invited to share what I wanted to share. But it took a lot of practice for me to do that because I

Dr. Emily Kline:

That’s really nice. I like that one a lot.

Debbie:

Yeah, I have a lot of advice to share. I read all the books. I know all the things, right? So I love that language. OK, gosh, there’s so many things we could, directions we could go in. But let’s before I have a very specific question that’s about what if the thing that we care about our kid doesn’t care about at all. So let’s put that on the side for a moment. But just to kind of like, summarize what we just discussed. We talked about, you know, using these reflections or curious questions really as a way to have a really nice communication with our child so that they don’t get defensive, so that they’re open, so that we can understand their point of view. They feel seen, they feel heard, and then we’re kind of laying the foundation to be able to problem solve together in a way that feels respectful. Am I kind of summing that up?

Dr. Emily Kline:

Perfect, exactly.

Debbie:

Okay, good. So that sounds really lovely. Like that’s what we want. We want, you know, and I know at the center or the heart of your work is like having, being in relationship with our kids. And that is really the most important thing at the end of the day, right? Is that we are in deep connection and relationship with our kiddos.

Dr. Emily Kline:

I mean, once you feel like you, I talk to parents so often who are so afraid to bring up the things that are bothering them in their household or the things that they’re worried about that their children are doing or not doing. Like, why aren’t you applying for jobs? Why are you always on TikTok? These kinds of questions. And I think that fear is really rooted in disconnection, you know, I just don’t feel connected to this person, but I still feel responsible for them. And that is a horrible feeling. totally. And I think that even if these strategies don’t get you to the solution you were hoping for, they’re a way to build a sort of connection and tolerance for difficult conversations.

Debbie:

Oh, I love that. Being able to tolerate that. That is a powerful word. And I think you nailed it. In my community, the theme this month is making peace with worry and fear. Like we have a lot of worries and a lot of fears. And if we’re leading with that energy, it’s not going to bring out the best in us. And it’s not going to foster that deeper connection. So all right. Let me ask you a question. So as we were talking about this example, which I so appreciate you giving these, the hygiene going down that road, because it is an issue for, I hear about this from parents all the time. So what if the kid could care less? That’s your thing. I really am fine with the level of hygiene or showering as infrequently as I do or brushing. I don’t care. Can we use motivational interviewing to navigate that sort of dynamic?

Dr. Emily Kline:

What a great question. So a couple different thoughts in my head about that. So sometimes saying that we don’t care about something is a way of defending ourselves when we’re feeling criticized. So there may be more ambivalence there than you’re getting. One thing that I think happens all the time, and I use this metaphor of playing tug of war because I think that kids all the time are used to playing tug of war. They’ve been playing tug of war with every adult their whole life, right? So when I come in and say, you need to take a shower, it’s important, they say, it’s not important, right? And what they’ve done is they saw me walk in the room with my side of the rope and they took their side of the rope and they pulled. And when I pull back, I’m saying, it is important for this reason, this reason, and this reason. If I just do a reflection there, like, okay, this isn’t really important to you. I compare that to just dropping the rope and saying, I don’t play. I’m not interested in that game today. Like, I’m just interested in your perspective. Okay, so it’s just not important to you. And sometimes just doing that can get kids back to our, what we were talking about at the beginning of our conversation, thinking, right? They’re so used to just kind of navigating other people’s demands and expectations that they’re not thinking for themselves and what’s important for them. 

Sometimes when we say, okay, it’s not important to you, they start thinking about what is important to them. And that can lead in a different direction sometimes. Another thing that is, it might feel a little weird for parents to try because it does feel like such a therapisty thing to say, but I’ll just put it out there in case anybody wants to try it, is another tool from the Motivational Interviewing Toolkit, which is to ask about importance directly by asking. So on a scale of one to 10, with 10 being like, you feel like you’ll die if you can’t do it today and one being like you literally do not care if this never happens. Where is it for you? And asking them to pick a number and then asking them, okay, so say they say three. And I’ll say, okay, so help me understand three. Why did you pick three? And that gets us in a more nuanced conversation about importance. I could say, a three and not a 10? And they might give me something about like, oh, well, you know, this is just like one of those things that people say you have to do, but it doesn’t actually matter. But then I’ll also say, why a three and not a one? And try and understand where the importance is for them.

Debbie:

That’s good. Yeah, OK, I’m thinking about that. That seems like next level, but very interesting and effective. It keeps the conversation going, and you’ll get more information and find out what’s really going on. Fascinating. OK, so gosh, there’s so much that we could talk about today, but I’m going to kind of wrap us up. And I guess. My question is, I ask this a lot when we’re talking about these strategies or approaches that require us to, in the moment, think on our feet or, you know, like, if we’re being triggered by something, it’s so hard to, to like, be like, let me just pull out this, like, response that I, this is an opportunity, I’m just going to reflect, you know, like, and maybe we reflect once and we’re like, my God, I did it. And then the next comment totally throws us offline again, right? So I guess my question is, do you have any like hacks or cheats for us to be able to, you know, in the moment, like shortcuts to keep in mind so that we kind of respond in a way that we know ultimately is going to be much more effective and feel better.

Dr. Emily Kline:

Yeah. So one thing that I encourage parents to do when they’re preparing for what I call a hard talk, and my book is called The School of Hard Talks, is that you can prepare in advance your I noticed statements and your curious questions. So those are things you can think about ahead of time and brainstorm. And you might not end up using everything you brainstormed, but that’s something you can do before the conversation starts. And for the reflection piece, I think that the training wheels concept of, well, it sounds like is really helpful. And you can just commit to, whatever comes out of this person’s mouth, I’m gonna say it sounds like, right? And you’re queuing yourself up to do a reflection. And then the last thing I would say is like, if we’re talking about family, I know it feels like these issues are so important and they are, you know, I mean, whether your kid or young adult can do their own hygiene or like take their medicine or participate in social and family events, it feels really important, I know. And yet it’s also super low stakes, like you probably live with this person.

 

which means that if it goes badly, try again tomorrow. know, like none of us get it right every time. And conflict and awkwardness is just a part of living as a human. You know, I tell all of the kids I work with, like we’re not lizards, we’re more like wolves. You know, we live in relationship, we live in packs, and that means there’s a lot of conflict, right? It doesn’t always…It’s not always easy, it doesn’t always go well. But it means that there’s always another shot at getting it a little bit better tomorrow.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yeah, and I imagine this is something that the more you do it, the more natural it feels. And then, you know, when I remember to do this, to say the things like, let me know it, you know, I have some ideas. You know, when I remember to do that, it always works out well. So then we’ll get that positive reinforcement and that will help us continue on. So I appreciate that. And Ijust a couple things before we say goodbye. First of all, I just want to make sure listeners know about your book. It is called The School of Hard Talks, How to Have Real Conversations with Your Almost Grown Kids and came out in 2023. I will have links in the show notes page. It’s a great resource and it will give you a lot more kind of insights into how to actually do this and go a lot deeper. And this isn’t just for hygiene or you can avoiding responsibility, not wanting to grow up, failure to launch, school refusal. There’s so much that this would give you an opportunity to be in relationship and work together to solve these kind of bigger problems, the kind of conflicts that can really be hard to navigate as a family when especially as our kids are kind of creeping towards adulthood. Is there anything that before we say goodbye like a last thought or maybe I don’t know if challenge is the right word but something you’d like listeners to kind of you know stick in their back pocket and take with them after listening to this.

Dr. Emily Kline:

Yes, so the other thing I would really invite people to do is before you try and use any of these tools or skills in a really difficult conversation like about dental hygiene, which is like hard, you know, with a 19 year old who does not agree with your premise that like this is something they need to be doing. That is a hard conversation. I would encourage listeners who are interested in the approach to try one of these skills or a combination of these skills of like making an observation, using reflections, asking curious questions, asking people what they’ve already tried or if they want your advice with like a friend or in a lower stakes conversation, just to kind of dip their toe into the water of it and see how it feels. I would predict that it will go really well and that that person will be like, thank you, that was super helpful. And you’ll get that nice feeling right away of having a deeper connection. And that’s something else I really encourage people to try before they go all the way into a super challenging conversation.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s good advice. Don’t jump into the deep end right away. Yeah. Nice. Awesome. Where would you like listeners to learn more about you and your work?

Dr. Emily Kline:

So there’s a few different places you can learn about me. You can go to my website, dremily.com. You can check out my free e-course on motivational interviewing for caregivers. It’s on a website called Handhold, and I can give you a link to put in the show notes. Or you can check out my book, as you said, it’s called The School of Hard Talks, how to have real conversations with your almost grown kids.

Debbie:

Awesome, well thank you. Yeah, and listeners, I will have links to all of those resources Emily just shared as well as some other things that came up over the course of our conversation. So check those out, as well as a transcript. So if you’d rather read this and take notes and highlight, you can do that as well. So Emily, thank you so much. Listeners, just so you know, we had some tech problems halfway through this conversation, but we were resilient and we persisted and we got through what I think was a fascinating conversation. So thank you so much.

Dr. Emily Kline:

Thank you for having me on.