Educator Sarah Casper Discusses her Comprehensive Consent Curriculum for Children and Teens

Debbie:

Hey, Sarah, welcome to the podcast.

Sarah Casper:

Hi, it’s great to be here.

Debbie:

I’m looking forward to getting into this with you, a new conversation, a new topic for the show. But before we do that, I read your formal bio, but I always ask my guests to take a few minutes and introduce themselves in their own words. It’s kind of, I hate this question when I’m being interviewed, but I love hearing what people share. And I always want to know one’s personal why. So why this work? Yeah.

Sarah Casper:

Sorry, yeah. So my name is Sarah Casper and I am a consent educator. And I like to specify when I say that, that I very much deal in the realm of social emotional learning and creating healthy relationships and not in the terms of, in terms of legalities. And it is how I got to this work. It’s truly reflective of that where I, when I started to learn about boundaries and asking for what I want and navigating power dynamics. It was in the acro yoga space, which is like partnered acrobatics. And as I’m really just driving right into it, I’m just going to let you know. I really had to figure out that space in a specific way because I am a five three woman and I weigh about 170 pounds. And so in an acrobatic space, there is not that like prototype for me, right? The prototype is either a very small and lightweight woman and a very big strong man basing. And so when I first entered, I started doing this circus art back in 2017. I really feel like I lost my voice as someone who’s typically a confident, outspoken person, boundaries didn’t feel like something that were hard for me, but all of a sudden in this space where it was so assumed that because I looked a certain way, I wouldn’t be good at certain things. I had to, or I should do certain things. I really had to find my voice and it was through the practice of trying out different ways of asking and different ways of saying no and talking to my friends who also were doing it with me and having issues with boundaries and wants. And so it really comes from a place of creating things you want more than limiting yourself and things you don’t want. Those are like two sides of the same coin. 

But it really comes from how we get to do the things that we want to do and stay away from what we don’t want to in doing so kind of keep away what we don’t want to do. And I was like, wow, this is a skill that I learned through practice. As an adult, imagine if I could have practiced consent in a low stakes way, again, not having to do with sex when I was younger, that would be amazing. And I’ve seen how these skills have also transferred into a sexual realm, but it really didn’t start from that place. It came from a place of just myself and my body learning to ask for what I want and keep my boundaries when it was something I didn’t want.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yeah, it’s so fascinating. mean, you know, in learning about your work, and I’ve listened to some other interviews with you and I even for myself, you know, is, you know, in my 50s, like I’m working on this stuff, I’m learning to set healthy, healthy boundaries and like grappling with what does that look like. And these are such important skills that we’re talking about. So I love that your personal experience brought you into this space and that now you are sharing it with other people. So let’s start with the definition. You kind of defined consent and said it’s partially like, what do I want? Not just what do I not want, which I think is such a cool way to talk about it. But how would you define this bigger umbrella of comprehensive consent, which is, you know, really the work that you’re doing right now?

Sarah Casper:

Yeah, so I talk about, don’t actually define consent because I really like the idea of keeping the word consent and the idea of getting consent and giving consent in the legal realm. Or it is a binary. It is one or the other. And right, that’s how courts work. And I’m not a lawyer. My background’s in psychology. This is not my space. But what I can talk about is the practice of consent. And for that, I define it as the practice of navigating your boundaries and desires alongside the boundaries and desires of someone else. So it’s the interplay of what you want and what you don’t want and the interplay of what they want and they don’t want.

Debbie:

That’s a great definition. And I also just want to mention for listeners that I was talking with Sara about this before I hit record, but I learned of your work because I interviewed Dr. Devin Price recently about his second book, Unmasking for Life and your reference throughout that book. And I know that your work was really informative as he was researching that. So that really piqued my interest. So when we talk about this idea of that inner play and practicing, you know, what you want and within the intersection of what other people want and navigating all of those things, I’d love to know kind of some, because we’ll go deeper into this, but kind of big picture, why is this such an important skill, a social emotional skill for young people to learn?

Sarah Casper:

It’s the bedrock of healthy relationships, being able to share with someone what you are wanting to do, what you are willing to do, and what would feel like enduring to you, and being able to notice in your body what feels like wanting, willing, and enduring. These are terms that I learned from Betty Martin, who created the Wheel of Consent. We typically think, as I said before, consent is sometimes shaped as a binary of want and don’t want. But really, there’s things that you are excited to do and want to do, things that you’re willing to do, like okay with, and then what you would be enduring and would be not okay with. And that’s a big space in between what you’re willing to do. And you want relationships where there’s a good balance of things that you’re wanting to do, things that you’re willing to do, and trying to keep enduring out of the equation. And having skills in consent in navigating your boundaries and desires alongside those of someone else is how you make sure that you stay in those realms that you want to stay in and that people don’t feel resentful and that people are getting those benefits out of relationships.

Debbie:

As you’re talking, of course, like I want to, I had a question kind of queued up and I want to pivot, but I’m not going to, but I am going to tell you the question that I want to come back to is I’m just thinking about, you know, a lot of our listeners have kids who are pretty demand avoidant and who would identify as, you know, having a PDA profile of autism. And so then I think about this idea of so much probably of what they’re being asked to do is something that feels like they would have to endure it, That it isn’t, they’re kind of probably butting up against that a lot. So I wanna come back to that, because I’m really curious to hear your thoughts on that. But before we kind of go more narrow, I was wondering if you could talk with us about, if we think about what consent might look like in terms of, know, with younger kids, for example, and I’ll throw an example out there. Even in terms of our kids knowing that they don’t have to give hugs to relatives or like, I think there’s so much of what we do with really young children in terms of how we engage with them that doesn’t kind of respect their bodily autonomy. And I’m just wondering if you could give us some examples about what this looks like when we’re talking about maybe young kids to start.

Sarah Casper:

Yeah, I’ve played with a lot of different definitions of consent and one of them has been in the past, like it’s the practice of upholding bodily autonomy. I think consent extends outside bodies. But it definitely is a way that we uphold that. We figure out what people are okay with and not okay with. So, one way, as you said, hugging or giving affection to relatives, helping them understand that they don’t have to do that. Affection can come, ideally, it’s coming from a place that’s real. Also, having a conversation with them that, are you willing to give grandma a hug? If you’re not willing, that’s also okay. But that they don’t have to want to do it in order to do it, but they can give it as a gift to grandma if it’s not outside of their boundaries. What’s really, and in any of these scenarios, what a parent needs to really be careful about is using the language of willing, but really pushing for enduring. So, you know, are you sure you’re not willing? Come on, please, you can be willing. Like you can be willing. And it’s like, no, now you’re not asking them about that genuine piece, right? But this comes up with young children. comes up with a lot of physical safety things like holding hands while crossing the street, being in booster seats or car seats, diaper changes, where what I will often say to parents is that bodily autonomy is not my highest value. It is a value of mine and it is not the highest value. So if you say like, hey, for your safety, I need to either be holding you or holding your hand while we cross the street. They might be really upset and saying like my body, my choice and saying safety is more important in this, you know, safety is more important here. I hear that you don’t want me to, and like, I don’t want to be doing something you don’t want to do. And as you’re, as the person who’s in charge of protecting you, this is, this is what we have to do.

And not saying, no, it’s not your body, it’s not your choice, but recognizing that, yeah, right now two values are conflicting and this one is a higher one, but really having awareness for yourself or like accountability sake that you are violating their body boundaries. You’re doing it for a good reason, but you are doing it. And to give them, and before going there, giving them as much choice within those decisions, right? You don’t want to hold my hand, okay? Will you get in the stroller while we cross the street? I can pick you up. That’s another option, right? If your body is able to do that and you won’t be, you know, enduring, right? Give them other options. You can make it more playful of like, oh, let’s skip across the street. Let’s bunny hop across the street, whatever it is. Try to get them to a place where they are genuinely willing. But last, like worst case scenario is, yep, sometimes like I don’t value pain, but I do value immunizations, and so I’m going to choose that one over the other.

Debbie:

Right, Interesting. Okay, so I just have to say, I really love the examples that you shared. I think, gosh, it’s tying together so many different things that we’ve talked about on the show here about raising free people, raising kids who kind of know that they deserve to be respected. And it is, I think for a lot of parents, maybe it’s a generational thing, but I mean, this certainly isn’t the way that my generation was raised by our kids. This isn’t the way that my generation was raised by our parents. so I imagine that this can be, talking about these concepts can be controversial sometimes. Has that been your experience?

Sarah Casper:

It has definitely, there’s definitely pushback. There’s definitely pushback. Some of it comes from a, it doesn’t feel fair that they’re getting choice as kids when I didn’t and power is enticing. And so when you’re a parent, you’re finally the person in power. And so some of it comes from that place that is a little bit more, would suggest to a parent who’s feeling that to think about what their relationship to power is and power over versus power with. And then for some parents, and this could also be, it’s not a binary, they can be a mix. For some parents, it’s more of, don’t feel like I have the energy to do this. Yelling and forcing and being scary or whatever is so much quicker and mentally easier. I don’t have to self, in order to do a lot of these practices, you need to, as a parent, be somewhat regulated yourself. And that is often effortful. So with those parents, honestly my suggestion is, before you think about implementing any of the strategies of giving choice, talking about willing, wanting, enduring, before doing any of that, find regulation within yourself and then try the strategies. And it will feel likely at least a little bit less effortful and draining. And also remember going back to part of one of the skills of consent is again, like accountability. So if you do find yourself being a little more forceful or power over than you’d like to be is coming back and saying, hey, I was really stressed right there. And I was short with you and that wasn’t fair just because like I’m bigger and I’m the parent and I’m sorry that, you I said those things or I raised my voice et cetera, and that’s part of, again, that relationship building where it’s not just about did you or did you not get consent, but how are you recognizing that they, as you said, have the right to be free people and have their own boundaries and wants.

Debbie:

Yeah, I mean, there’s so many different threads that we talk about on the show that, you know, what you’re sharing is kind of weaving through, right? So this idea of Dr. Ross Green’s work in collaborative and proactive solutions, is about collaborating with our kids to help them solve problems, right? It is a much different approach than my way or the highway or I make the rules. You know, we talk a lot about self-regulation here as well and how critical that is so we can co-regulate for our kiddos who are having a hard time. And one of the things I just want to touch upon, I wrote down the word agenda and I was just thinking that we can’t really be doing this work in an authentic way if we go into, you know, conversations with our kids with an agenda of what we want the outcome to be in that situation. Is that, am I getting that right?

Sarah Casper:

That’s such an interesting question. It is very hard to not have an agenda and I don’t even necessarily think that an agenda in General is a is necessarily a bad thing. I think an agenda of I want you to do this this way for me is An agenda we wouldn’t want to go in with but the agenda of I want to get you in the car so that we can go to school, that’s a fine agenda to enter the conversation with. What’s important done within that is it doesn’t matter how they get in the car, right? It matters that they’re wearing their seat belts and all of that, but it doesn’t matter how they do it. It doesn’t matter if they put their shoes on before they get, or it doesn’t necessarily matter, it depends on the situation, if they get their shoes on before they get in the car or after, right, once they’re already seated. And if it’s about they don’t like where they’re going, well, that’s not an issue of getting in the car, right? That’s an issue of the ultimate destination, which is school, which maybe they’re having trouble in school. so problem solving for the car isn’t going to get you there. Actually, if you do creative strategies for like how you want to get into the car, it’s really not likely going to work because we haven’t really named the problem or the, you know. So to some degree, I don’t want people to think like, you know, it’s, I don’t know how a parent would be able to keep themselves from having an agenda of I want you to get in the car. Like you can try to tell yourself you don’t, but deep down you know you do. And also what I say to parents sometimes is can you tell, can you be honest with your child about why you’re telling them to do what you want them to do? So like the idea of giving them two options, right? We can bunny hop to the car, pretend we’re rocket ships, they’re going to say, well, that’s not really a choice and be like, no, it’s not. It’s not. do want to get you to the car. And I’m just saying, why not have fun with it? Right. If you can honestly say that to your kid, then I don’t think it’s, is there some kind of manipulation there? Yes. But you can be straight up honest with it. And there could be like, okay. 

But if it’s, I want you to, if you’re yelling at your child and saying, my way or the highway, because I said so, and you don’t really have a good reason for why you’re making them do the thing the way, right? You have to put your shoes on first because I said so and because they’re gonna, your feet are gonna get dirty and whatever. And you can sometimes catch yourself where you think there’s a good reason. And then your kid shares, here’s why actually I can solve for that. And then you say, okay, you’re right. I didn’t think about it. You’re right. If you wear your outdoor shoes there, then yep, that’s totally fine. You can start going down the here is why you have to do it my way. And I do have an agenda. it might be for, there might be, again, a good reason for why some kid has to do something in a certain way, but being able to pivot if the child gives you new information. Yeah, and I had parents say to me, like, but I don’t want them to win. And I was like, so that’s a different thing, right? That’s a power over thing. That’s a yep, yep, yep. Because I said to them, “Well, why can’t they do it that way? They’re like, well, because then they win. And I think especially once you’ve had some conflict within a decision, it can be really easy to stay on that path because you feel like you want to win. But remembering, winning is teaching creative problem solving to your kid and maintaining the relationship. Like that’s what a real win looks like. Yeah.

Debbie:

Yeah, yeah. Maintaining a relationship. Absolutely. I’m just wondering, you’ve explained that a lot of consent for kids is having a sense of agency and choice. And I’m wondering if you could, we’ve talked about kind of the younger kids, you know, getting in the car, putting on shoes, those kinds of examples. Could you give us an example of maybe more of a like an elementary school or middle school student of the kinds of things we might want to be considering when it comes to consent, a different situation?

Sarah Casper:

Yeah, something like taking a shower on their own. You’re making me shower. It’s my body. I don’t need to. There are times when I like to separate the categories of health, hygiene, and safety, or hygiene, health, and safety. Sometimes something is a hygiene issue, which is not a health issue. And sometimes those things get conflated, right? Not brushing your teeth one night might be a hygiene issue. for, not a dentist, but I’m pretty certain that that’s not a health issue, right? For one night. And so keeping those kinds of things in mind. So if your kid doesn’t shower for one day, okay, so it’s a hygiene issue. They’re not gonna be, they smell bad, right? Also social at that point, social stuff will take care of that. You don’t need to be the parent to say shower because their friends will encourage some of those behaviors. When it becomes a health issue or a safety issue, that’s when you’d want to have a conversation. You might have a conversation about hygiene too, but I think I’d recommend to parents to be more flexible on those issues, also love, I know there’s some controversy or do we call them natural consequences? Do we call them practical consequences? But right, if they don’t want to do their homework, okay, I’m not going to make you do your homework. You deal with a teacher, you know, when your homework isn’t done. It depends on the kind of student, right? You wouldn’t, or the kind of kid you, or who the kid is, you wouldn’t want to do that. That’s not a one size fits all strategy, but sometimes letting them kind of choose and find out what the consequences are, you know, can be helpful. But again, are they not doing their homework because they want to goof off? Are they not doing their homework because they are having a hard time focusing and need support in creating an environment? Are they not doing their homework because they don’t understand it and feel embarrassed? If they’re not doing their homework because of what you kind of talked about before, like demand avoidance, like I’m not doing it because you told me to, that’s where like, okay, consequences then. 

But if it’s for a different reason, I think a lot of parents go, no, you have to do this. especially at that age where they can start to share a little bit more about their other thinking and feeling and be able to just wider vocabulary, bigger understanding, wider understanding of what’s going on. You might say to them like, yeah, why not? Like what’s going on for you? And figure out first like why they don’t want to before you jump to problem solving of no, you have to because it’s your homework. Yeah, one of my favorite examples of that is that like I have said before and I’ll say it again that I for years did not brush my teeth as a child. I told my parents that I did. I wet my toothbrush, I did all the tricks and I did not brush my teeth. It was not because I didn’t think about the consequences of the health of my gums and teeth and I am paying for it now. It’s because I was a kid and thinking about my future me wasn’t something I was focused on. What I was focused on was that brushing my teeth was boring. I did, I was, I had to be away from the fun and brushing my teeth and now I watch TikTok while I brush my teeth and I do it every night. And it was because the problem wasn’t that I didn’t understand the importance of it. The problem was that I was bored and that I was distracted. so it, so now I do something where it makes it less distracting. and so that’s like a very practical example of instead of, right, going for like, but you have to let me explain to you why it’s all right, let’s try some different ways of brushing teeth and figure out is it the toothpaste, is it the environment, is it the time of day, is it whatever. And also within that, I would say small wins. So if your kid is never brushing their teeth or never showering and then all of a sudden you can get them to do that, either get them to do that without conflict, right? If it’s showering, let’s say twice a week, they’re doing that. That’s a win, right? For brushing their teeth, they’re doing it for 10 seconds every other day. Take that win and build on that rather than trying to go for perfection.

Debbie:

You know, listeners know that I’m a big fan of Ned Johnson and Bill Stixard’s book, it’s called The Self Driven Child. And one of the things, you know, in talking about that book, too, and that I remind myself every day is like, I cannot make another person do anything, right. And especially as our kids get older. And I will also just say later today, I’m interviewing Dr. David Yeager, who wrote this wonderful book called 10 to 25, the science of motivating young people. And so there’s a lot of what you’re talking about that weaves nicely with that book too. So I just love how all these themes are so connected. Okay, so I’d love to just pivot and talk specifically about neurodivergent kids and teens and just wondering, you know, as I was learning about your work, I certainly can think of how being neurodivergent could create some additional challenges when it comes to consent. And then I also thought there are some ways in which some neurodivergent kids might be better prepared at setting boundaries. And I’m just wondering if you could kind of give us some bigger picture thoughts on what you’ve noticed when it comes to that intersection of neurodivergence and consenting kids.

Sarah Casper:

Sure. It’s hard to pinpoint because as someone who has ADHD myself, a lot of the frameworks I’ve created and ways of talking about consent that I’ve created are with neurodivergence in mind because that’s how my brain works. And often those are the kids that I’ve before I was doing consent work, that’s often the populations I was working with. And you mentioned before, like demand avoidance. like that’s, again, I touched on that before, of if they just want to have it their way, like at some point it’s like, okay, like do I really need to win the quote unquote this one or is this not the time and place. I worked with one, I babysat for this one family once and their daughter was very, I want to push back against someone. To the point where one time she took her parents’ car keys and she wanted to go to a pharmacy to get a knee brace because she hurt her knee and her mom’s a nurse and I said, your mom will look at it when she gets home and then you can decide. And she was insistent, no, like we have to do this. and she took the car keys and, and left the house. At this point, I’ve known this girl for a year and a half and I just sat there. I just sat in the home and I didn’t do anything. And she came back in about 30 seconds later. And again, not recommending this as a strategy for any kid, but being thoughtful about what does this child really want or really needing and not getting?

And are they regulated? I think is a big one. In that moment, when she took the car keys, I could tell she was dysregulated. So me using, talking through the logic of her mom, who’s a nurse, diagnosing her before we went to the pharmacy to get a knee brace or whatever, wasn’t, wasn’t gonna work. She needed to, to kind of calm down and I knew this kid was not going to take the car. She’s way too nervous about getting in trouble. But I think that’s the number one thing is when explaining, I think as adults and in a world where logic reigns, or where we’re told logic reigns, it can be really easy to want to explain to a kid why they need to first, why they need to apologize, if they took something without asking when that is a great thing to do, but not in the moment where they’re frustrated about either getting it wrong or not being able to do the thing that they wanted to do. So I just often talk about like, these are skills that you want to talk about and build outside of difficult moments, not waiting for a difficult moment to arise and then learn, teach that, like use that right there to explain it to them. Cause they’re, they’re offline. They’re not going to hear what you’re saying.

Debbie:

And I’m wondering about, you know, you talked at the very beginning that you see your work as kind of social emotional learning, right? And thinking about neurodivergent kids who may not read social cues in typical ways. And, you know, I’m just wondering what have you seen in terms of challenges that might bring up with setting, maybe setting their own boundaries or recognizing the boundaries of other people.  

Sarah Casper:

Something that I share in general and not just with neurodivergent communities is the idea that we are really good at reading body language and that doesn’t always convert into knowing thoughts. Thoughts, wants. That doesn’t always convert into knowing wants. What I mean by that is if you see someone shivering, you can tell by their body language perhaps that they’re cold. And that’s a pretty solid assumption. But that doesn’t mean that therefore they want you to put their arms around them. That doesn’t mean that they want you to close the window. Or it doesn’t necessarily mean, that doesn’t necessarily mean they want to borrow your sweatshirt. Right, the feeling that they’re feeling, you might be right about that, but you don’t know what they want. And so I kind of talk about incorporating body language rather than relying on it.

And for folks who maybe struggle to read body language, focusing not on what their body language says, but has their body language changed and then also using other strategies if body language isn’t going to be a strategy that works for you. And by that I mean asking questions like, are you willing to let me x, y, z? Or like, can I do this? It’s okay if it’s a no, right? Teaching them like kind of phrases to say where to fill in for the blanks where body language might not totally fill it in. But I also think that in general body language is something that people can read and don’t necessarily then do with it, something that is pro-social. So in that way, it’s kind of not different. It’s about figuring out the roots of, it’s kind of, as you say, social-emotional learning. Part of it is, A, we think of it’s very skills-focused and practice-focused, sequenced and scaffolded within any kind of practice, you’re going to have things that are your strong points and things that you’re working on. so figuring out, like right there are some neurodivergent folks who are really sensitive to a body language change. And so how do you, you know, how does a person work with that or someone who is less sensitive to that? How are they incorporating that? And how are they practicing both to get better at those skills, but also sharpening other skills that maybe can compensate a little bit. And, and recognizing that again, these are skills noticing how someone’s body is changing and actually taking that in without letting it dysregulate you, right? If someone sees someone has like a, the scowl on their face, neurodivergent or not, you’re going to have to like figure out how do I, how do I incorporate this into my understanding and not let it dysregulate me. 

Debbie:

Well, let me just kind of, you know, we’ll wrap up, because I know this is a longer conversation, but I find it so fascinating. So I just want to say thank you also for going into this with us. But I’m wondering about our neurodivergent kids who may have lower self-esteem, right, who may be really wanting belonging, who may struggle as a result with setting boundaries. And again, going back to the very beginning of this conversation, we talked about boundary setting. And I’m just wondering if you have thoughts for, this, whether they’re neurodivergent or not, but if we are parenting kids who may be people pleasers or who may put other people’s needs first, how do we help kind of cultivate in them a sense that they actually matter and that they get to be in choice in relationships with other people?

Sarah Casper:

I think one of the biggest things is again focusing on wants, not just boundaries. I think with neurodivergent kids, a lot of people are focusing on things like, how are they going to, I’m nervous that they’re going to not understand personal space and violate someone else’s boundaries. And that is important. And also thinking about, well, you know, what do they want? You know, asking questions like, what do you want? What sounds good to you? How would you like to play this game? Just doing child-led play is a great thing for building self-esteem in a kid. I would also say that, and this is one of the really big challenges in teaching consent and teaching these skills to kids is that because they’re interpersonal and relational, it is important and worthwhile to, as a parent, teach your own kid. And if the people that they’re interacting with aren’t learning this, you can only go so far.

Right? Because it’s about navigating your boundaries and desires alongside the boundaries and desires of someone else. But if that someone else isn’t also doing that, you’re going to hit a wall at some point. And that’s a hard thing to come to terms with. And why I’m very, I’ll plug right now my book, The Kids and Consent Curriculum, which is lessons for classrooms. And I felt really strongly about creating this curriculum because in the classroom is when they’re with their peers is such a great time to reinforce these peer to peer skills because it will look different with parents and to make sure that you’re both looking out. Each person in the community, in the classroom is looking out for themselves and looking out for the other throughout. And so I think, yeah, teaching the skills at home, focusing if they’re all about what other people want, kind of, it sounds a little funny, but like pushing them to figure out what they’re want, sitting in the silence until they think of something or using creative strategies to get them to think a little bit more. And the child led play can be huge. then, you know, looking for programs or hopefully access is a hard one. But hopefully finding teachers and communities where these values are reinforced is going to be big part of it.

Debbie:

Yeah, yeah, that’s great. Thank you. So last question. And I’m just wondering if you have kind of, I don’t know the word challenges coming to mind, but maybe that’s not it. But something for listeners who want to really get curious about their family and their relationship with their kids and are they practicing, you know, consent values in their home? Is there like a question or kind of a challenge that you would pose to them to get curious about after listening to this episode?

Sarah Casper:

Yeah, I have a little activity that parents can try where it works better with, actually it works. It works differently for younger kids, but, write out a bunch of choices that a kid makes throughout the day, meaning what clothes they wear, what time they go to sleep, how they get to school, what they eat for dinner to walk with your kid about are these things that parent mostly has decision about or that kid mostly has decision about? And what I mean by that is like what you wear to bed, it’s like, yeah, kids mostly have decisions about that. Obviously if the kid’s like, I want to put on a heating blanket that stays hot the whole night, like that’s a safety issue and parent will have to intervene. But generally it doesn’t matter what a kid wears to bed, kid also gets to decide. Whereas like, how kids gets to school, that’s gotta be most, that’s probably mostly a parent decision. And what’s great about this activity is that kids recognize that parents, it’s important for parents to have certain choice over certain things. Like they, they know it and they say it. And then you can kind of refer back to that of like, this is a, this is the decision that I do need to have, you know, that I do have quite a big say in and I still want to hear your voice and maybe I can integrate it. But right, like I do have a say that you go to the doctors. Like this is, this is most, this is a big parent decision, but it also gets the kid to see how many decisions they mostly get to be in charge of. And kids often feel like they don’t get choice. And so this can be a nice thing for empowering that. And if you have a disagreement with your kid about who mostly gets to make that choice, this can be a great time to talk about it. What do you mean by this is mostly your choice? Tell me more about this and this will give you a sense of how they understand choice in their home life with you. And can help establish some guidelines. But mostly it’s not about what the outcome is, it’s mostly about what the process is of, again, as you said, getting curious, that will kind of show you what is their understanding of where their choice lives.

Debbie:

Right. I love that. That seems doable and something I want to do too, even with my 20 year old, who’s going to be coming home from university this weekend. And we’re going to have to renegotiate living in the same house together and see how that goes.

Sarah Casper:

Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And there might be, and you might make a third category. I’m all for changing. Whenever someone gives an activity, change it up, you know, feel free to change it. Maybe you have a category that is both of us like almost equally. Great. yeah.

Debbie:

Mm hmm. Yeah, that’s awesome. Awesome. Well, sorry, I just want to say thank you. This has been such a fascinating conversation. I took so many notes and yeah, lots of scribbles on my piece of paper here. But I just really appreciate everything that you shared and the work that you do. I think it’s so important. I’m really glad our paths have connected. So is there a place you want people to get in touch with you?

Sarah Casper:

Yeah, you can find me at comprehensive consent.com or on Instagram at comprehensive consent. My book is the kids and consent curriculum available basically wherever books are sold. And I do work with PTAs with middle and high schoolers with teacher training is a big one. I don’t myself actually go into classrooms of littles because they don’t know me and it’s not going to be worth the time. It’s much better if I’m talking to the teachers and the teachers can reinforce that. So yeah, that’s where you can find my work and hopefully we can spread some of these ideas and get more of this autonomy back to the kids. That’s where it belongs.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s awesome. Thank you. And listeners, as always, I will have links in the show notes page for all the ways you can connect with Sarah and the other things that came up in this conversation. So thank you so much.

Sarah Casper:

Thank you.