Educator Rob Barnett on What it Takes to Meet Every Learner’s Needs

Debbie: 

Hey Rob, welcome to the podcast.

Rob Barnett:

Thank you, glad to be here.

Debbie:

Yeah, I’m glad you reached out to me to tell me about your new book. And I’m just going to put the name out there right now before we get into the conversation. Because sometimes, like halfway through the interview, I’ve realized, wait, I didn’t actually share the title of the book. So I’m going to do that up front. So don’t forget. So it’s called Meet Every Learner’s Needs, Redesigning Instruction So All Students Can Succeed. And you reached out to me about the book. And of course, it piqued my interest because so much of what parents in my community are doing is advocating for their kids’ educational preferences and how they navigate learning for those needs to be met in school. So I think this will be a really interesting conversation. And before we kind of get into your educational model, I would love it if you could take a few minutes and just tell us a little bit of your story and how you came to be doing the work that you do.

Rob Barnett:

Sure. Glad to be here. Thank you for mentioning the book. I certainly didn’t intend to or set out to write a book. I became a teacher because I love working with young people and I always have. When I became a teacher, I really struggled. I found it very difficult in any one of my classes to meet the various needs of every learner. I mean, every learner really has different needs and I would walk into class one day and some of my students would be right with me. They’d have grade level skills or they’d be advanced. They were hungry for a challenge. Some students came to my classes. I taught high school math with gaps in their math skills, gaps in their math confidence. They needed more support. Some students weren’t there at all or they were distracted. And so I was faced with this room full of students all needing different things. And I realized if I try to teach one lesson today, to all these students, well, my advanced students will be bored. My students who need more support will be lost and the students who aren’t there are gonna miss out altogether. So I needed to find a way to meet all of these learners’ needs. What I ended up doing was developing sort of taking pieces from other teachers, developing an instructional model that, which I’m sure we’ll talk about that, helped me, know, help all of those learners succeed. It made teaching much more enjoyable for me too. I felt like I spent class not policing behavior from the front of the room, but really doing what I wanted to do, which was getting to know young people, building relationships with young people, watching them learn and succeed. This method of teaching worked for me. I shared it with some of my colleagues. It worked for them. We started a nonprofit in 2018 called the Modern Classrooms Project, basically just to train other teachers in Washington, DC. in this approach. Since then we’ve grown, we’ve now trained about 80,000 teachers all over the world in this approach. And I wrote a book to explain how does a modern classroom work? What is this instructional model? What are the strategies teachers can use? And I also wanted it to be a book that would be accessible for parents and policymakers and administrators. I’m a parent myself, my kids are only two and four, so I’m a very inexperienced parent. But I think about what they’re going to get from school, what I want them to get from school, what kind of instruction I want for them. And the book is partly talking about that, which I believe every young person should get when they’re in school.

Debbie:

So as you were sharing your story, I wrote down the words why you. And what my mind was thinking when I wrote those words down is what you shared in terms of your experience as a new teacher and recognizing the diversity of the learning styles in your classroom and the profiles of the students and thinking, like, how am going to meet everybody’s needs? I think that’s probably got to be common among teachers. And so I’m curious about what was it about you or maybe this goes back to your own educational background as a student and a young learner yourself that made you think, I’m going to change this. I can come up with something that’s going to address this.

Rob Barnett:

Yeah, that’s a good question. And I don’t know that I have a good answer. I I know that what I was facing is a challenge that every teacher faces. And I was lucky in my career, especially early on, to work at a school with a lot of other great teachers who helped me sort of identify strategies to meet various learners’ needs. I was also at that time in my life, you know, I was young, I didn’t have kids, I could work very hard to figure out how to make this work. And I, you know, ended up just meeting great colleagues, including my modern classrooms co-founder, Karim Farah, who realized, I think, the potential of this idea. And we, you know, decided to share it. And I think we realized that this does, this does solve a challenge that a lot of teachers face. I don’t think I’m, I’m far from the first, you know, person to say we should be educating our students differently. I mean, in some way, the original modern classroom was a one room schoolhouse back when we, you know, I think had a, had an educational model where students did learn at their own paces and students did reach mastery. so I’m not the first or only person to have these ideas. I think what I and Modern Classrooms Project have figured out how to do is just package it in a way that any teacher anywhere who’s a little frustrated with the challenge of teaching feels like here are some strategies that I can actually use with my students. Here are strategies that have worked for other teachers around the world. And you know, that’s, that’s what the book and the nonprofit are about is just sharing these ideas with any teacher that they can help sharing these ideas also with parents who want to see educational experiences that meet their learners needs, whether your kid is the most advanced student in the class and wants the most challenging problems, whether your kid struggles in math because their education has caused them to lack confidence, whether your student misses class sometimes because of health issues. You want the student to go into school to be challenged, to be supported, have relationships with teachers, not to be left behind or held back. You know, that’s the goal of all these strategies.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yeah. So I’m trying to think of where we should go next. I mean, I would love it if you could kind of explain the modern classroom instructional model. And maybe as part of that, I’m so curious to hear that story of making that first instructional video. So if you could kind of talk with us about it because, sorry, I’m trying to connect all these ideas. Because I think when you did that, it was such an interesting time in the world because it was actually pre-COVID. And so I think the timing of what you created was also so wonderful. Would you kind of tell us a little bit about what the approach is and as part of that share that kind of story of how you went about and why you thought instructional video is a piece of this?

Rob Barnett:

Of course. Yeah. What really got me is I taught a first period class, pre-calculus class. There were about 20 students in the class. And some days there would be five in the room when the bell rang because students lived far away or they had to drop off younger siblings or whatever. They couldn’t make it to school. then throughout class, students would come in, you know, when they arrived. And I just realized it’s not going to be possible for me to stand at the front of the room and teach a math lesson in these circumstances. The students will miss a few days at a time or they’ll come in halfway through like, I can’t do this, I’m going to quit. But I didn’t want to quit. So I realized I could take the lessons I was giving from the front of the room and just put them on video and a very simple video, right? I didn’t have a studio or anything. I would basically just start a video call with myself. I don’t know if Zoom was around, so I could use Skype. You know, I’d start a video call with myself. I’d hit record. I would explain some math concept and then I’d hit stop record. I would have a video and I would put that online for students to watch. And that small thing had such a profound difference in my room because now when students walked in, they could, they could just start with watching the video. I mean, they could watch it at home, but they could also watch it in class. They could come in, they could watch the video. They could pause, they could rewind, they could take notes. If they had a question, they could just call me over, because I was no longer at the front of the room, demanding quiet from the students, and I could answer it. And that was so much more comfortable for students, by the way. It can be really intimidating to raise your hand in class and ask a question in front of all your peers. But when you’re watching a video, you just pause the video, call me over, or ask a classmate, hey, did you understand this piece?

And so now, my students were learning at their own pace, right? Some students who were there every day and understood the material really quickly, they would watch the video. After the video, which was always quite short, by the way, five or 10 minutes, students would close the computers. They would do work together on paper. So I think math is a good subject to do on paper. So students would watch the video, close the computer, find another student to work with, do some practice on paper. When they were ready, they would say, Mr. Barnett, I understand this. I’m ready for the next lesson. And at that point, I would give them something I call a mastery check. Just a very quick assessment to see, do you understand this or not? If the student proves they understand it, they’re on to the next video and onto the next lesson. If the student doesn’t understand it yet, I say, hang on a minute, like, let’s go back to the video. Let’s find a classmate. Let me explain to you your misconception so that instead of the student moving on to the next skill unprepared, they actually have the time and support to build mastery and in math. But in any subject, that’s so important, right? You achieve success in one lesson. You’re prepared for the next lesson. And you probably feel a little bit of confidence too, like, hey, if I work hard, I can learn this. And so now, instead of the student walking into class, having to sit quietly, listen to me, explain something they already know or can’t understand, they spend time in class watching a short video, working with their classmates, seeing whether or not they understand, and then advancing or reviewing accordingly. And it was those simple videos that made this whole approach possible. But I loved it because I spent class sitting down with my students, getting to know them, helping them learn. And my students loved it because they weren’t like being dragged through content at a pace that didn’t work for them. They actually could reach understanding. They could work closely with me. They could ask their friends for help. Yeah, it really worked.

Debbie:

So as you’re describing this, it’s so interesting and I’m kind of picturing what this actually looked like and the way you describe it in the book also helped me kind of visualize this very collaborative environment, relationship-based learning and all of these things where students really are engaged, right? That’s the goal here is to engage students. And so you did this in your math class and at what point did you start to realize This actually is really working in a way that I wanna amplify this. I wanna spread the word and see if we can grow this and actually create this new approach.

Rob Barnett:

Yeah, that’s a great question. Before I answer that, I will just say sort of, if you’re wondering what this looks like, I often think this is kind of like a college library or a college study hall. You’ll see students in groups working together. They might have a computer open with the video, but students who are all on lesson three are working on lesson three together. And then you’ll see students working independently. They might be watching the video for lesson one or lesson two. And then I’m sort of just walking around the room answering questions and it’s not that every student sitting in rows looking at the board. It’s much more dynamic sort of, yeah, like a productive college library. But now I can answer your actual question, which is about, you know, when I thought this would grow. Like I say, I wasn’t trying to, you know, create an instructional model or share something. It really was pretty organic. I had a colleague named Kareem Farah. He taught downstairs from me, arrived at the school a few years after I did, he was struggling with the same challenges I was struggling with. I said, why don’t you come up here and observe my class, see how I do it. He came up and he said, wow, this could really work for me. He started teaching this way. When he went home that night, he made his first video, he put in place some of the same systems that I had to support this kind of learning. Now there were two of us. Actually, I ended up leaving this school. I moved abroad to teach at another school, but the year I left, he was named the most innovative educator in DC public schools, which is where we were teaching. And there was a big sort of gala and there was a video of his classroom. 

And some of our colleagues started to say, wow, this was cool. Like, I sort of heard that you guys were teaching this way, but now that I see it, I get it. I want to learn. I was abroad, but you know, I came back to DC over the summer and we just trained eight of our colleagues. We showed them how our classrooms worked. We taught them how to create videos and we formed a nonprofit basically to raise money to buy them computers to do this because they needed the equipment to do this. So we showed them here’s how to make a video, here’s how to make a mastery check, here’s how you get students really working together even in a classroom that is kind of self-paced. And it was interesting because Kareem and I were both math teachers. Now we were training history teachers and English teachers and science teachers and we didn’t really know if it was going to work, but we sort of said to the teachers, here’s our approach, here’s our training, see if it works. It did really work for those teachers. They were happier, their students were happier, they felt like they could meet all their learners’ needs. 

So then in the summer of 2019, we recruited 25 teachers now from all over Washington, DC to take our training, to train them again. It was effective for them, for them as well. You know, over winter break of 2019 to 2020, we said, next year, I think we should try to train 50 teachers, that would be a big goal for us. Well, COVID happened. In 2020, we ended up training over 700 teachers from all over the world, because there was just this huge appetite for like, you know, I can’t. I can’t stand at the front of the class and teach anymore, because there is no classroom. I’m on Zoom, students can’t log in, they can’t connect, like I need something different. There is an appetite for a more flexible sort of approach to teaching. And we’ve continued to grow every year since then, even now that teachers are back in school. As you mentioned, this was a model that we developed before COVID. We think that this is what students and teachers need, whether they’re virtual or in the classroom. And yeah, I think it continues to grow because it’s a really fundamental challenge for a teacher. In any class, you have students who are ahead, who are behind, who aren’t there, or who are distracted. Each of those students deserves to be appropriately challenged and supported. How does a teacher do that? That’s what we try to help teachers answer.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yeah. And as you say in the book, like teaching to the middle, just it doesn’t work. You know, I referenced Todd Rose’s book, The End of Average on this show before. But it seems like that is what so many educational institutions are doing, are teaching to this middle that doesn’t really even exist. And I’m wondering when you started doing this back in 20, I think you said 2018. Did you get pushback from admin? just knew you were in a public school system. This seems a bit, you know, it seems very kind of creative and not kind of, you know, a typical way. And we know that big systems can be hard to change or to be open to new ways of doing things. So what did that look like?

Rob Barnett:

Yeah, I mean, I was lucky I had supportive administrators, but certainly in our work with modern classrooms, we run into all sorts of skepticism about this model. And I think skepticism is always justified. The education of our young people is so important. Like we should be skeptical of the latest sort of new thing. I don’t think the modern classroom model, by the way, is the latest new thing. I think we’ve known for decades that, you know, students have different needs, they learn at different paces, and when you help them achieve mastery at their own paces, that’s productive. But I think a lot of people worry about putting students on screens, and I think that worry is justified. I don’t want my kids on screens all day either. I think we try to help them understand Modern Classroom is not students on the computer all day. It is using the computer to replace a very small part of class, which is the teachers direct instruction, then students close the computer and they work together. And actually, in my experience, the modern classroom was much more human because I was no longer at the front of the room, you know, policing behavior, I sat down with my students, getting to know them and they were free to work together too. It wasn’t like, you know, no one speaks while the teacher is speaking and one could work together freely. So it was, you know, it was very human in that way. I think another bit of pushback that we’re facing is I think there are compelling arguments for standardization in schools, you know, standard curriculum. We want to make sure that whether you go to school in a, you know, a wealthy neighborhood or a poor neighborhood, you have access to high quality curriculum. And so that puts, puts, you know, pressure on standardizing things. I think we also have to see that when we teach to the middle or assume that every kid who’s 13 years old is going to learn the exact same content in the exact same amount of time. That’s not how that’s not how learning works. That’s miserable for teachers. And so we need to, we need to say, you know, if we actually want students, if you actually want the student at Eastern high school in Washington, DC to master something like pre-calculus, and they come in without those skills, you gotta give them time, you gotta give them extra support, and you’ve also gotta let those advanced students zoom ahead. So, you I think sometimes people think equity is equal standardization. I don’t think that’s the case. I think equity means that we need to take every learner as they come to us, regardless of their needs, and figure out a way to meet them.

Debbie:

So on the show, we’ve had conversations about universal design for learning and that being a really kind of powerful way to teach neurodivergent students especially. And so I’m wondering, do comparisons come up or how would you kind of differentiate for listeners who are kind of interested in different kind of philosophical approaches? How would you differentiate what you’re doing through modern classrooms with UDL?

Rob Barnett:

Yeah, I love UDL. We’ve actually had people from CAST, which is the organization that promotes UDL, sort of look at our materials, look at our approach, do sort of an audit to make sure that we are in line with UDL. And they say, you know, they think we all feel like we’re working towards the same mission, which is making sure that every student, regardless of their needs, is challenged and supported. I think, when I look at UDL, I see it as a powerful kind of framework. I think what modern classrooms is trying to do is give teachers the more practical tools as opposed to the theoretical framework to make this happen in their room every day. You know, I think if you have an instructional video, that’s a powerful tool that, you know, changes the way your classroom works and lets you respond to every learner’s needs. Let learners continue learning outside of class. One thing I didn’t mention is that it’s great for families. You know, a student can watch the video at home with the family and continue learning there. So I think that’s a great tool that opens up, you know, meeting every learner’s needs. it’s not evident right away what makes for a great video or how to record a video or what tool you should use or, you know, how you share it with students, all those things. And so I think what Modern Classrooms does is try to give really detailed guidance to teachers like, here’s how you make that video. You want to have a mastery check to make sure that students understand lesson one before they go to lesson two. Here’s how you create a mastery check. And so I look at Modern Classrooms project as being aligned with the theory and framework of UDL, but putting more practical techniques that any teacher can use tomorrow to create a more inclusive and equitable classroom.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yeah. And I, you’ve talked about this mastery check a couple of times, and I do want to go into that a little bit deeper and just understand how do you define the concept of mastery? You know, my understanding with UDL, and I’m not an expert in it at all, but part of it is helping kids kind of display or share their mastery and knowledge of a subject in different ways. You know, writing, singing, music, art, you know, whatever kind of taps into the kind of learner that they are. But could you kind of define mastery for us and explain a little bit more what those mastery texts might look like?

Rob Barnett:

Yeah, sure. mean, certainly in math, but I think in a lot of other subjects too, knowledge always builds on itself. And so if you want a student to learn something advanced and they don’t have the foundational skills, they’re going to struggle on that advanced topic. you as a teacher are going to end up you know, having to refill that gap again and again and again. And Sal Khan from Khan Academy has this great analogy of like, you’re trying to build a house on an incomplete foundation. So you should build the foundation first before you start building the house. I think for me that the mastery check, the purpose of the mastery check is more important than the form. It’s to make sure that the student is ready to learn the advanced skill has the foundations in place. And so, you know, I think what we often share with teachers is the mastery check is that, you know, the typical mastery check is probably a half sheet of paper with one question that a student answers tied to the objective of the lesson. And if you have it, great, you move to the next thing. If not, you revise. But we also tell teachers, look, it’s the purpose that matters. A mastery check is not a half sheet of paper with one question. A mastery check is letting you know that the student is ready to advance and if the student prefers to come and sit with you and explain and you say okay go ahead you know move to the next video that’s fine if the student prefers to you know create create something else that shows mastery that works also i often as a teacher like to do those you know when i had time those kind of oral mastery checks where i said okay you know debbie you’re working on right triangles right now, like before you move to trigonometry, you got to show me that you can solve the sides of a right triangle. Come sit down, like explain to me how you would find it. And I can figure out in 10 seconds whether you understand it or not, you know, and that was often fine for me. And then I’d say, you know, I think you’re missing one thing. So go back to the video or great, like now you’re ready for trigonometry. So yeah, I think the mastery check is really about the purpose and for teachers, you know, who can think of multiple ways of multiple means by which learners can express mastery. I’m all for that.

Debbie:

Yeah. mean, everything that you’re sharing, also sounds relationship based. It sounds respectful. No shame, no falling behind, just kind of really respecting where everybody is, which feels really good. And as you’re talking, I’m wondering how the students respond, because it’s different, right? If they go into a classroom where this is the way that the teacher is approaching curriculum for the first time and they’re used to zoning out, right? Well, the lecture is happening. This is a much more hands-on approach. You have a section in the book called engagement as behavior management. Astle just interviewed Rebecca Winthrop and Jenny Anderson about their book, The Disengaged Teen. So I think engagement is just such a big piece of what the work that you’re doing and what we’re talking about today. So I’m just curious what the feedback or response has been from students generally speaking. And then also if you could talk a little bit about what you mean when you say engagement is really kind of the road to behavior management or it’s kind of the same thing.

Rob Barnett:

Yeah, maybe I’ll start with that. When I was being trained to be a teacher, I learned a lot of behavior management techniques, like how to control the class’s attention and how I should make students sit and track me with their eyes and all of these things. And I think the theory was if you can control their behavior you can engage them in the content. And I found that to be backwards. To me, if you can engage them in the content, you can control their behavior. And I don’t mean control their behavior in a menacing way. I mean, you can get them to behave how you want. Because I start from the assumption that every child wants to be successful. They want to learn. They want to feel the pride that comes with learning. To the extent that students are disengaged or display apathy, I often think of that almost as a defense mechanism. Like if I’m sitting in class and I didn’t understand the foundations of math in sixth grade, seventh grade, eighth grade, now I’m in ninth grade. I know I’m not going to understand it. I haven’t been prepared to understand it. So I’m going to disengage. Or if I’m super advanced and I love math and I do math at home with my, you know, with my family, like I’m sitting in this ninth grade math class. This is so dull. I already learned this. I’m ready for a challenge. I’m going to disengage. 

Oftentimes the most disruptive students I had were the ones who were, you know, the most advanced in math because there was nothing when I was teaching to the middle, there was nothing for them. So, you know, that’s what I mean by engagement as behavior management. If you can figure out how to appropriately challenge and appropriately support every learner every day, you’re not going to have behavior management challenges. Students are going to want to learn because every, every person wants to succeed In terms of how students respond, know, this is an adjustment and oftentimes in the beginning of the year, students flop. They’re not used to having the freedom. They’re used to sitting and getting and when you give students more autonomy, they don’t always know how to handle it. You know, one thing I should clarify, by the way, is when I say students learn at their own paces, it’s not for the entire year. It’s often a week at a time or two weeks at a time students would start fresh on the next topic. So maybe that first week or second week or even the first month students sort of think, wow this is great like Mr. Barnett’s not you know standing at the front of the room yelling at me I can just sort of coast I don’t really have to work. But then students I think see and building relationships with students helps them see that if they’re not going to use their time in class you know they’re not going to succeed and they won’t do well on assessments or they won’t, you know, they won’t feel good about what they’re learning in class. I think when you have the time to sit down with young people and build relationships with them and explain why you’re teaching in this unusual way, students get it like, wow, you’re telling me that if I’m confused about something, I can take an extra day to learn it. And I can ask you questions whenever I want. And I can ask my friends for help. Amazing. Or you’re telling me that I can just go through things as quickly as I want to learn as much as I can. Like amazing. Once they see that it’s built for them, I think they understand the value of it. And it is an adjustment, but actually what’s unusual shouldn’t be this form of learning. What’s unusual is the idea that every 13 year old is going to learn the exact same amount of content every day. That makes no sense to me.

Debbie:

Yeah, same, same. And I like that talking about the why, why we’re doing it this way, but also why are we learning this in the first place? Like that is the key to engagement, I think. And you’ve said a couple of times what I believe so deeply and Ned Johnson, a friend of mine who wrote a wonderful book, The Self-Driven Child is always saying kids want their lives to work out, right? So we just want to tap into their intrinsic motivation. And I think this is such a nice way to do that and help them have that sense of agency. As a way of wrapping up, I’m just thinking of my listeners who are thinking, yeah, this would be great to have in our school system. How are you reaching out to schools? And how can listeners, you know, we do have educators and therapists, you know, who listen to the show as well, but as predominantly parents of neurodivergent kids. So how can they play a role in getting their schools to be open to looking at how they’re teaching in a different way?

Rob Barnett:

Yeah, that’s a great question. I I think it, I spent a lot of time in the book talking about the challenges of being a teacher and the challenges I faced. And I think in the same way that as a teacher, I tried to empathize with my students and their families. I think it’s useful for parents to empathize with teachers and just understand, like, this is why it’s hard to be a teacher. You know, I want the teacher to give all their attention to my child, but the teacher has 20, 30 kids in the room all have different needs. This is the challenge. I think once you understand why it’s so hard to be a teacher, you know, you can relate to the teacher and perhaps suggest like, hey, you know, I heard about this approach. It’s created by teachers. A lot of teachers are using it. I wonder if this might make life easier for you. You know, I wonder if you think this could work. And I always feel lik, as a teacher talking with parents, you know, we’re all on the same side, right? Sometimes we feel like we are at odds because, you know, we were talking about a student who’s experiencing challenges, but we all want the same thing, which is for, you know, the teacher to succeed, the student to succeed, the family to succeed. 

And so I always appreciated when parents came to me with that, with a feeling of, you know, hey, here’s an idea, have you learned about this? Have you thought about this? Have you tried this? And I did often learn a lot from parents who shared those sorts of things. You know, the Modern Classroom Project is a nonprofit. We have all of our resources for teachers that are free online. We have a free online course that any teacher or any parent can take. And, you know, I would encourage parents listening to spend a little time on our website, just understanding the approach and then think about how can you share this with, could be the teacher, could be the principal, you know, not in a way like you need to do this because it’s better, even though that may be what I believe, but you know, hey, I heard a teacher talking about the challenges that he faced. I heard some ideas that seemed like they worked for him. This organization has helped teachers all over the place, you know. There’s free resources, maybe you could check it out. And I think our goal at Modern Classrooms Project is always to create resources that feel accessible to teachers, things that they can do tomorrow to change, to do better and do better for their students. And the book, the same. These are strategies that worked for me, work for other teachers, and I hope can work for the teachers of all your listeners as well.

Debbie:

Yeah, great. That’s great. Thank you so much. And I’ll just repeat the name of the book. Again, it’s Meet Every Learner’s Needs, Redesigning Instruction So All Students Can Succeed. And can you let listeners know the best places to learn more about the modern classroom?

Rob Barnett:

Yeah, absolutely. So Modern Classrooms project website is just modernclassrooms.org. you know, our work is focused on teachers, but we we try to share this model with everyone because, like I said, everyone’s on the same team here. Right. And so we need principals to understand this. We need parents to understand this. We need, you know, therapists and tutors and coaches to understand this. If you want to learn more about the book, you can go to meet every learners needs.org and there I have more about the book and resources from the book. So either place I think is a good place to start and both places have tons of free resources. The goal of this organization is not to make money. It’s to empower educators and young people. I hope listeners will find things on the book site and the modern classroom site that are empowering.

Debbie:

Awesome. Well, they will. I have no doubt about that. I’ve spent time on checking out the resources, and they’re super helpful and accessible. So I just want to say thank you. Listeners, I will have links to all the things that came up in our conversation as well as the resources Rob just mentioned in the show notes page. So check that out. But Rob, thank you so much, and good luck with your mission to change education from the inside. It’s awesome.

Rob Barnett:

Thank you, I really appreciated the chance to share it with you.