Dr. Christine Crawford on Parenting Through Mental Health Challenges

Debbie:

Hey, Dr. Crawford, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Christine Crawford:

Thanks so much for having me.

Debbie:

Yeah, I’m really looking forward to getting into your work and this book. When I found out about this book we’re going to be discussing today, which listeners it’s called You Are Not Alone for Parents and Caregivers, the NAMI Guide to Navigating Your Child’s Mental Health, I was like, OK, I need to bring that to my families. And then I saw you have such incredible testimonials for the book, including folks that we really love here, Tina Payne Bryson, Barry Prizant, Michelle Borba and I was like, okay, got to get this book. So I’m very excited to talk with you. But as a way to kind of get into it, I always like to hear a little bit more from my guests about the work that they do and kind of why behind it. And if you wouldn’t mind including just telling us what NAMI stands for.

Dr. Christine Crawford:

Yes, so I’m an adult child and adolescent psychiatrist by training. And so I went to medical school to better understand how physical health impacts the way in which people function and have relationships with other people and how they’re able to kind of live out their best lives. But I have more of an interest in mental health and the connection between one’s mental health and their physical health and vice versa. And so in the work that I do, I try to understand if there are underlying medical issues that may be contributing to one’s emotional and behavioral state, but also understanding that one’s emotional and behavioral state can also have an impact on one’s physical health. The other thing along with that is I tend to have a clinic that focuses on working with teenagers who are experiencing symptoms of psychosis. And so I work at Boston Medical Center, which is a large safety net hospital in the region, working primarily with patients who are on mass health with really complicated lives. And also working with the families of the kids who have these complicated lives. So I have found myself having lots of conversations with caregivers, with parents who are struggling to understand how to take care of their kids’ overall health. And a huge part of that is their mental health. And so NAMI, the National Alliance on Mental Illness, is the country’s largest grassroots organization that’s dedicated to improving the lives of individuals who are living with mental health conditions, but also providing support educational resources for the loved ones in those people’s lives so that they have all of the tools that are necessary in order to effectively support these individuals who are living with mental health conditions. Because it really does take a whole network of support when it comes to managing your mood and your behavior. And that’s why I love the work that NAMI does. We’re available all across the country, 630 local affiliates that are offering free support groups and what have you. And so it’s nice having that part of my job where I serve as associate medical director, just basically translating all of this clinical information for the general public to raise awareness about mental health and the treatments that are available.

Debbie:

Yeah, it’s so good. I think even just knowing that that resource exists is so helpful. I’m thinking of these listservs that I’ve been on. I have a 20-year-old now, and I’ve been in a number of Facebook groups and listservs where people are sharing information. And parents whose kids are really struggling with severe mental health challenges, they seem to be just drowning. And it’s such a loss about what to do when they’re finding each other. But it’s this kind of very word of mouth thing, seems to be how to navigate this. And that’s why I was so excited to find this book and to know that it’s out there for all of those families. So I also like to just define what we are talking about? So we’re all on the same page. How do you define a mental health condition?

Dr. Christine Crawford:

Ooh, what a great question. So when I think about the definition of a mental health condition, it is by definition a medical condition that has an impact on one’s ability to function day to day due to challenges that they experience related to their emotional state and the behaviors that they may exhibit. And so examples of mental health conditions include major depressive disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder. These are all conditions that are consistent with experiences that we may all have. We have all experienced periods of sadness or periods of feeling anxious or been exposed to a significant stressor. But it’s when those experiences have a profound impact on your ability to get through day to day. so mental health conditions are conditions that do that for people. That’s different from mental health. Mental health is just thinking about your overall social, emotional well-being, how it is that you are thriving emotionally and how your emotions connect to your behaviors and how you are navigating this very complicated world with a set of tools that you may have to allow you to navigate typical day-to-day stressors. But mental health conditions are when the emotional experiences and the behaviors just really make it hard for you to do what you need to do in a given day.

Debbie:

Yeah, thank you. That’s so helpful. And the audience of this show is parents of neurodivergent kids. And there are so many of us, and I run a parent community, so I’m in constant communication with thousands of families, many of whom have kids with these kind of co-occurring medical, co-occurring mental health challenges. Specifically, the things that come up the most are anxiety no surprise, depression, and then some of the suicidal ideation and self-harm also is coming up. In terms of depression, there was a lot in the book about depression that I found really surprising, including how high the rates of major depressive episodes are, and also what actually qualifies is that it’s not this, I thought it would be months and months of depression. Can you talk about how we know if something is depression?

Dr. Christine Crawford:

Yeah, and especially when it comes to parents of children and teenagers, it can be hard to differentiate between just typical behavior from a child who doesn’t have a full set of tools in their toolbox because they’re going through a lot of these life experiences for the first time. They’re experiencing disappointment for the first time. And so as caregivers and parents, we could minimize the emotional experiences of our kids. And it is also hard to even fathom the idea of a school-age kid experiencing a period of depression, or even a teenager, and thinking it’s serious enough for it to qualify for depression. Yes, you’re right. The rates of major depressive episodes that are experienced by kids and teenagers has been going up over recent years and certainly during the pandemic we saw a significant increase in rates of depression that continue to persist today. The thing about depression is that you’re right, it’s not just having symptoms of sadness, feeling low for months and months on end. It literally just takes two weeks, a two week period of time in which you are feeling sad and we see that the individual is having difficulty being able to function. They’re not able to function physically. Their sleep is not good. Their appetite isn’t good. Their energy level is low. It’s hard for them to get out of bed, to shower, to brush their teeth, to do basic things. But also we see that people have challenges as it relates to their appetite. Maybe they’re eating more than usual or eating less. And it’s hard for them to make decisions.

They are very indecisive, overwhelmed quickly because it’s hard for them to focus and concentrate. And we also see some feelings of guilt, feeling like you’re a burden to other people, not enjoying things that you would usually enjoy. All of those things just need to be present for two weeks. And I think that for our youngest children out there, especially those who are in kindergarten, first grade, school age kids, these symptoms are often overlooked and minimized. And that’s why kids are really experiencing more severe symptoms that can then result into them having thoughts of self-harm, thoughts of suicide. And unfortunately, we’re seeing an increase in emergency room visits from our young people for suicidal ideation or having thoughts of suicide. And one of the scariest statistics that’s out there is looking at kids as young as five. And noticing that kids between the ages of five to 12, especially our black kids, are having more thoughts of suicide. And black kids are two times more likely to attempt suicide, have suicidal thoughts compared to white kids. So we’re seeing serious symptoms of depression in young kids. And that’s why I love the fact that we’re talking about this because rates are on the rise, but the severity of these episodes are also worsening. And so I really appreciated having an opportunity in the book to talk a lot about that because a lot of caregivers are overlooking some of the symptoms and they just don’t know what the symptoms are.

Debbie:

Yeah, yeah. And I think there must be such a denial or resistance to wanting to believe that this could be happening to our kids and especially kids that young. It’s really hard to fathom. I certainly know that when my child was five, six, seven, I saw escalated behavior and intensity, but I would never have imagined depression and these kinds of heavier things could have been something that was going on. It’s just not something, as you said, we’re not even aware it’s a possibility.

Dr. Christine Crawford:

Yeah, that’s absolutely right. And when it comes to depression, a lot of parents and caregivers feel as though if their kid has depression, that as a parent, they did something wrong. And so when you even mentioned the whole component of denial, one doesn’t want to think, my goodness, I did something to make it such that my kid is feeling so hopeless that they’re feeling like life is no longer worth living. That’s a really hard thing to be able to tolerate and to carry as a parent. But it’s important for parents and caregivers to understand not only when it comes to depression, but some other mental health conditions, it is not your fault as a parent. These are medical issues that stem from the brain. And the brain is an organ that has some challenges from time to time, like how other body parts experience some challenges, but it’s really hard for a lot of parents to accept that.

Debbie:

So one of the things that you said in the book is that it can be like watching lobsters in a pot in terms of identifying if there’s a mental health concern actually happening. And I’m thinking again about neurodivergent kids who are already likely struggling with social things and because of their wiring may be more sensitive and just have kind of a more extreme sensitivities and intensities. So can you talk about this idea of distress radius, which to my understanding it’s how we would kind of understand this increase or a shift in signals that might indicate distress, but what are we actually looking for?

Dr. Christine Crawford:

Yes, so I know just from all of my interactions with parents, adults who are invested in supporting the mental health of kids, it’s really hard for them to determine whether or not a behavioral problem, an emotional problem that they are noticing in a kid, if that actually is a problem. And I came up with this concept of the distress radius to create this visual for adults to understand the impact of this change in behavior and emotional state on aspects of that kid’s life. So for example, a lot of parents may find themselves concerned about their kid’s behavior. They might get into arguments with their kid or they might notice these changes in their kids in terms of their behavior in terms of their interactions. And they might think, goodness, this kid has a lot of issues. We got to get them in to see a therapist. It’s a problem. But then what you notice when you start to explore how this kid functions in other aspects and domains of their lives, there may not be an issue. And so the idea of the distress radius is just thinking about how big is the impact of their change in behavior in their emotional state? Does this seem to expand and radiate out to other domains of this kid’s life? Or is it something that seems to only be observed within your interaction with the kid within the home? Because when it comes to mental health concerns in kids, these are concerns that are fairly consistent across multiple domains in a kid’s life.

And if you start to notice that it’s expanding beyond the confines of the home and it’s having an impact on their academic performance, it’s having an impact on their interest to engage in extracurricular activities, you’re noticing that there’s actually a change in their interactions with their friends, with their coaches, with their faith-based leaders. You’re noticing that it’s starting to expand and radiate out into other aspects. That is a concept that I talk about in the book so that parents and caregivers can have this visual in their mind to be like, okay, is this a problem just here or is this a much larger problem? The thing about it is that as parents and caregivers, we just wanna make sure that our kids are okay. That’s the baseline. That’s where we’re all operating from. But some of us can overestimate some of the distress that we’re noticing in a kid. And sometimes we can underestimate it based on our own personal experiences. You know, we may overestimate what it is that we’re seeing in some of the distress signals that a kid is sending out to us and communicating to us because we might have our own personal experience being a kid ourselves when we were younger, having mental health challenges or having people in the family or friends who might’ve experienced mental health related issues. So you’re more keyed in, included into picking up on some of these things, or you’re underestimating it because of concerns that you have about stigma or negative experiences that people that you know have gone through navigating the mental health system with their kid. And so all of those things are touched upon in the book because at the end of the day, I just want parents and caregivers to feel empowered, to notice their kid, to notice mental health related concerns, and to do something about it, and to do something about it from a place of confidence and empowerment.

Debbie:

And part of doing something about it is having conversations with our kids, right? And you model lovely conversations in the book and give some language, which I think can be really helpful. But how do we begin that conversation for listeners who are kind of suspecting their kid is struggling, but is afraid of maybe introducing a concept, you know, and I won’t mention the name of the book, but there has been some there’s been a book recently that was really kind of dissing therapy and saying we’re creating these mental health problems for kids. So for parents who are afraid to even broach the subject, how do we begin to engage with our child if we’re concerned?

Dr. Christine Crawford:

Yeah. So I think it’s important for us to engage with our kids around mental health concerns that we have, because literally lives are at stake. And I know this sounds overly dramatic, but there are kids who are literally suffering because nobody is noticing these subtle changes in their mood and behavior. And when they do notice it, folks don’t know what to do about it. So they don’t actually engage in conversations or lean into conversations that are leaning out. And so it is absolutely important that we have these conversations with our kids. I talk about a framework that I came up with called Look, Listen, and Lock In. And it’s three simple steps that I think that all parents and caregivers should keep in mind as they are thinking about initiating conversations with their kids. So number one, have the conversation, okay? But have the conversation from a place of curiosity about behaviors and patterns, change in patterns that you’ve noticed in their mood and behavior. So you actually wanna look at your kid and notice your kid. What’s so interesting in this day and age is that we’re all very busy. And we’re so busy that sometimes we don’t even notice what’s going on with our kids who are living under our roof. We’re so preoccupied with certain things that we’re not even noticing what it is that our kids are looking like day in and day out. We’re just like crossing paths. People are on their phones, not fully paying attention. So I talk a lot about just noticing your kid, actually noticing these changes and being curious about them.

And then you want to actually engage in a conversation where you are doing most of the listening and your kid is doing the majority of the talking. And so you can approach that conversation by starting off by saying, hey, you know, I’ve noticed you over the last few weeks and what I’ve noticed is that you’re not as interested in sitting at the dinner table with us, that you haven’t been going to soccer practice. You’re not going to your friend’s house. I’m just curious what your thoughts are about why that might be the case. So you did step number one, you notice you were looking for any changes in their behavior. And then you were able to bring that into a conversation in which you came from a place of curiosity, but you want to listen to what their thoughts are about this change in behavior. And it’s important to do the listening because you might actually be surprised about what might be behind the behavior change. But if you come from a place of, hey, you’re not doing your homework, you’re not getting out of bed, you’re depressed and you need to get over it. But you could actually be totally missing the boat because if you came from a place of curiosity about these changes and you were listening to them, they might’ve shared with you, well, actually I haven’t been able to get out of bed. I don’t want to go to school because I got bullied really badly a couple of weeks ago and I’m terrified. You wouldn’t have known that if you just jumped in, dived into the conversation and took up space with your assumptions. And then the last thing is you want to lock in. And what I mean by that is you want to communicate to your kid that you’re there and you want to lock in the appropriate supports for them. But again, that conversation about how we can lock in supports for you.

You should approach that with curiosity. I wonder, just given some of the concerns you just expressed, what are your thoughts about next steps? Because they might share with you. Well, I actually went on TikTok and I started to do some research and there’s this thing called DBT or CBT or something, some kind of therapy. I think I need that. And so now you know, okay, we’re starting at a place in which you’re interested in more formal mental health supports, or they can even share with you supports that they’ve already tapped into. Whether it be at school, where there are a number of mental health clinicians in public schools and private schools throughout the country who are providing weekly individual therapy to students in the school. And a lot of parents don’t even know that’s a thing. And so, locking in supports is really about what do you think would be most helpful? How can I help you in achieving that goal and just continuing to be at their side on this part of their mental health journey?

Debbie:

Yeah, I love that framework. And I just want to also offer for listeners to especially, you know, if these are the if this is the first time you’re having these conversations, how important it is to leave lots of space. And I say this from experience. like silence is really hard for me. And if I can just wait it out, usually something comes, especially with their kids who might be more uncomfortable discussing feelings. So leave room for them to respond. And then the other thing, and this part of that active listening that you talk about is, it’s really hard to listen to a kid expressing that they’re in pain and to not offer solutions or to not feel like we want to dispute their experience because we want it to change so badly. Like it can be so hard to know our kid is feeling this way. So, but that’s obviously not what we want to do here.

Dr. Christine Crawford:

I mean, it is hard to be able to hear that your child is experiencing pain, but you want to be fully present for that conversation such that they feel comfortable just sharing all of this with you without having this concern of needing to censor themselves because they’re seeing the pain on your face. They’re seeing your discomfort. And so when you approach these conversations, make sure that you have the necessary supports that you will need in order to process what your child is gonna offload onto you because you don’t wanna take up too much space with your emotional response. We are certainly valid to have our reactions and our responses, but you don’t wanna make it such that it takes up too much space and space away from your kid to fully experience their full range of emotions about their experiences.

The other thing I want to add, Debbie, too, is that oftentimes these conversations begin when parents are concerned because things are approaching a state of crisis. The idea is to have these conversations on a regular ongoing basis, not only bring these things up when there is an actual issue. The idea is that having these conversations regularly will allow you to pick up on some of these more subtle changes, these small things, then you can engage with your kid and get them the supports that they need before it escalates their further problem. The other thing that parents ask me is, well, how old should I begin to have these conversations and to bring up mental health issues? And I say, as young as the age of three, it sounds surprising to say starting at age three to have these conversations, but it’s actually helpful because that’s a period of time in which kids are starting to learn about different emotional states. They are talking about their emotions. They’re able to recognize emotional states in other people. And so if you practice modeling on how to communicate about feelings, about changes in behavior, that modeling is going to serve that kid well throughout their entire development. So start as soon as you can, but if you haven’t yet started, there’s no time like now, and so don’t feel like you’re behind the eight ball. Have these conversations as often as possible.

Debbie:

So there’s so much we could get into when we’re talking about what to do next. But I do want to touch upon this problem solving paradigm, which you write about this idea that when we do discover a child is struggling, maybe we do discover there’s something significant going on and we realize they are depressed. And then we, you know, first of all, there’s a whole conversation about how do we find the right people? And you talk a lot about that. You break down the types of practitioners available and how to navigate that but we want to fix them. Like we want to find the person and then say, okay, fix my kid because we just want this to go away. So what’s the challenge with that fix it mindset when we’re talking about mental health with our kids and what is the reality of this journey?

Dr. Christine Crawford:

I love that question because you’re right. A lot of parents wait many months for an appointment so that they can bring their kid in for an evaluation. And they’re hoping that at the end of an hour of talking to them as well as to the kid, that I’ll be able to determine exactly what is going on with the kid and what treatment options that they need. And yes, I can do that. And the idea is that it’s not about, okay, what is the problem and what’s wrong with my kid and then fix it. Really the question that a lot of parents should have when they bring their kids in is, can you help me better understand my child and my child’s brain and how it is my child experiences emotional states as well as what can I do as a parent to support them just given the way in which they experience really big and intense emotions.

And not a lot of parents are approaching the evaluations and even subsequent mental health visits from that standpoint. There sometimes is a more passive approach to mental health treatment in which you are kind of putting your child in the hands of someone else. And absolutely, mental health clinicians have received extensive training in order to provide that support and guidance. But when it comes to kids and their mental health, parents and caregivers have to play an active part in the treatment. And they need to feel like they are empowered such that they feel like they are an important and critical part of the treatment team, overall treatment team. It’s not just in the hands of other people. And so part of being curious about the way your kid’s brain works and how it experiences intense emotions will just provide you with tools to be able to support your kid, to better connect with your kid, and to better communicate with your kid about their emotional state. And all of those things are so helpful while your kid is engaged in treatment, because then you’ll be able to collect information and data from your kid about how they’re doing in between visits. So I see kids for 30 minutes for follow-up visits, maybe every four to six weeks, and I’m relying heavily on the caregiver, on the parent, to give me a sense as to how the kid is functioning at home. And the only way I could get that information is from a parent who is actively engaged in connecting with their kid and understanding their kid, noticing their kid, having these conversations from a place of curiosity about how their kid is doing with the tools that are being provided by their mental health clinician, whether it be through therapy or through medication management. And so I talk a lot about how parents should really feel empowered, that they are really functioning as like the team captain or the coach, the team manager, as it relates to the mental health treatment overall team. You are the number one person here at the end of the day, because you are the one who will always know your child best and to have confidence in that, in that the mental health team is really relying on your input and needs your input in order to better provide treatment to the kid.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love this idea of the team and I’ve certainly spent many, many, many, many hours writing emails in between sessions to different people on my kids team to kind of update them from my perspective of what’s going on. And I know that’s been super helpful. And you also mentioned many times in the book that there are just number wise, there aren’t enough therapists out there for who work with children and adolescents. We also know sometimes you find the person and they’re not the right match. Do you have any kind of words of advice or encouragement for parents who are struggling to find the right fit when they have a child who is really struggling?

Dr. Christine Crawford:

Yeah, it’s awfully frustrating when you’ve put in a lot of work in identifying a provider and it just doesn’t seem to be working out in terms of how your kid is connecting with this provider or concerns that the kid isn’t on the trajectory that you’re hoping they would be on as part of their treatment. And it could be difficult to make changes in that provider because you’re like, spent so much time looking for this one. I found it. I don’t want to let go because then it will take me months to find another one. And all of that is true. I mean, it’s actually the reality of the situation in which we are experiencing severe shortages as it relates to child psychiatrists and other pediatric mental health clinicians. But if it’s not working, it’s not working and it’s actually okay to communicate that to your provider. So number one, lot of caregivers and parents don’t even feel comfortable communicating that or expressing that. It’s actually okay because it could make a huge difference in the care that is being provided to your kid if there aren’t any other options. So to say something like, I’m really concerned, it’s been X number of weeks or months and there hasn’t been much headway. I’m not quite sure this is a good fit. What are your thoughts about the lack of progress? And you can have a beautiful conversation about appropriate next steps. The other thing too is that I talk a lot about how parents should really try to develop their own set of tools to support their kids’ mental health because there’s just so much time that’s spent outside of therapy appointments, outside of medication management appointments.

And so learning some of the skills that are being taught to your kid through therapy could be really helpful because you can reinforce some of those principles such that if a provider does leave, because we do see high turnover rates in pediatric mental health, at least you have a basic understanding of some therapeutic tools that might have been effective for your kid. And you can have them practice that and reinforce that. And then also, there is so much therapeutic support that comes from just being a part of a community, whether it’s through your faith-based community, whether that’s being connected to sports, whether that’s being connected to adults who aren’t part of your family, but just having other people around this kid who are noticing this kid, who are having conversations with this kid, who are maybe even providing their own set of coping strategies that they use as an adult and they’re modeling that for the kid, it’s truly impactful. And I really do believe when it comes to youth mental health, we have a shared sense of responsibility across the board, whether or not you went to graduate school to be a mental health clinician or what have you, all adults have a shared sense of responsibility in terms of supporting the social emotional development of kids. So tap into your human resources within your own community to support your kid and their mental health journey.

Debbie:

I love that. We all have a shared responsibility. It’s something that’s so important. We don’t talk about it enough. So thank you for that. I have one more question and there’s so much that we’re not going to get into. So I’m really encouraging listeners to check out Dr. Crawford’s book, You Are Not Alone, because it is a phenomenal resource. But you talk about distress tolerance in the book, not just our kids, but ours. And specifically that we want to be able to learn how to tolerate our kids’ distress, which is so difficult to do. It’s so hard when you’re, especially again, when our kids are struggling with the really, really big stuff. How do we build up our own distress tolerance in the face of our kids’ pain?

Dr. Christine Crawford:

Yeah, so what I try to communicate to parents and caregivers is the fact that our kids are doing the best that they can with the tools that they have and the brains that they have. There are a number of amazing authors out there who have just talked about neurobiology and how it has an impact on the way in which kids deal with stress and how they respond to stress and just thinking about neurodevelopment. Like literally kids are doing the best that they can with the brains that they have. Some of our favorite authors have said that, right? And it’s absolutely true. But a lot of parents and adults think that kids are many adults and that their brains are like our brains, but they’re actually not. They’re not fully developed yet.

And so the connections that kind of help with emotion regulation, that help with rational thinking, that help pump the brakes on our actions, what it is that we say, you know, those connections have yet to be properly formed. But at the end of the day, this is the best way that the kid in this moment is able to effectively communicate the distress that they’re experiencing. And so I talk about parents coming from a place of empathy for their child. Yeah, it can be so, so difficult to bear witness to a child who is engaging in headbanging or who is self-harming, but literally that is the only way in which they can communicate to us in that moment of time with the ability to access whatever tools. That’s all that they can do in that moment. And so what we could do is just support them during that moment and be there in the moment. But then hopefully after that moment passes we have some opportunities to talk about some of the skills that could be used next time. We can practice using some of those skills when there isn’t any kind of an episode or a point of crisis and continue to practice those strategies and to reflect on, okay, what could have gone differently during that last episode. can’t have those conversations during the actual episode, but you can certainly reflect on them afterwards. But in those really difficult moments, just be there for your kid, be with your kid, but understand this is the best that they can do with where they’re at right now.

Debbie:

Yeah. Yeah. And just, you know, for listeners who are experiencing this, you know, going back to what Dr. Crawford said about community, it’s so important just to know also that you’re not alone and to take care of yourself. You know, I’ll include some links in the show notes page for this episode also on just kind of what I call conscious maintenance. Like, how can we really take care of ourselves so we can show up calmly and be regulated for our kids? So again, we can’t go into everything in the book. I do want to just mention for listeners, there’s a wonderful section that goes into great detail on when there’s a significant mental health crisis, you talk about navigating the emergency room. What does that look like? You know, just these things that I feel like people don’t know what to do until they’re in that moment. So you provide wonderful information as well as the aftermath and how to navigate that. So it’s just such a comprehensive, thoughtful resource. So I want to thank you first of all for writing it. I want to thank you for coming on the show and sharing everything that you did with us today. Any last thoughts or something you’d want to leave listeners with before we say goodbye?

Dr. Christine Crawford:

I just want to say that I’m so encouraged by all of these conversations that we’re having about youth mental health and that they didn’t end once things improved after the pandemic, but there’s been a youth mental health crisis for years and there’s only about 8,300 child psychiatrists in the country. So I really mean it when I say that there’s a shared sense of responsibility in terms of taking care of our kids and taking care of their mental health. And so we all have the capacity to provide our kids with the tools that they need in order to navigate this really challenging world. And so I thank you so much for creating a space for parents to learn about some of the resources and tools that are available for them to support their kids.

Debbie:

Thank you. Thank you so much. And listeners, again, go to the show notes page. I’ll have links to NAMI, to Dr. Crawford’s book and the other resources that came up in this conversation. Thank you again so much for this conversation. was such a pleasure.

Dr. Christine Crawford:

Thanks for having me.