Dr. Aliza Pressman on the 5 Principles of Parenting

Debbie:

Hey, Aliza, welcome back to the podcast.

Dr. Aliza Pressman:

Hello, thank you for having me back.

Debbie:

Yeah, we were just talking before I hit record, and we recorded in very different times in the world. We were kind of really in it in the COVID pandemic. And we talked about trauma and burnout, and it was such a good conversation. Listeners, if you want a little flashback, there’s a lot of gold in that conversation. I’ll include the link in the show notes page. But we’re going to have a much different conversation today and celebrate and learn more about your new book. But before we get into that, for listeners who aren’t familiar with you and your work, would you just give us kind of your introduction and who you are in the world and your sweet spot in what you do?

Dr. Aliza Pressman:

Sure. I am a developmental psychologist, which is just a different kind of lens for psychologists. It’s looking at change over time and how we come to be who we are versus a sort of diagnosis lens or a clinical lens. And I am the co-founding director of the Mount Sinai Parenting Center, which is actually housed at a hospital in New York City, but we work across almost 200 hospitals in the United States, working with healthcare providers and integrating parenting support into the healthcare visits and some parent-facing work. And I have a podcast called Raising Good Humans. And I work with parents, you know, I kind of try to do a little bit of a bunch of different ways to get through to families, however I can best support them. And I guess I wrote this book to have another way to reach families, mostly parents, primarily mothers, if I’m honest. But so I have, my lens is developmental psychology, but then I also get the benefit of working with healthcare providers and directly with families and I think it just helps me imagine different scenarios and imagine different experiences and environments.

Debbie:

So I would love then, you know, as you were talking, you mentioned your podcast, Raising Good Humans, and I would love to just hear, how do you define a good human? Because I think that’s something we just kind of throw around. Of course, we want to raise good humans. But what does that mean to you?

Dr. Aliza Pressman:

Well, so this is one of those things that I think is an annoying answer, but I genuinely believe that we all know what a good human is for us, and it’s our job as parents and caregivers to decide what that means in our family. And I would never presume to say what a good human is. I think it’s funny because if you say raising good humans or, you know, we all of course want to raise good humans. I think we just kind of know, but I don’t know that how we would each individually define it is the same. And I go through the book. There’s a whole exercise on figuring that out because I, I just don’t want to have that arrogance of like, I know what a good human is and what the outcomes are that you’re looking for your family. It’s just not my business. I mean, there are certain things that are like no brainer, not good human, but, but beyond the like fundamental you know, good and evil stuff. I really think there’s such a huge range of how we define good human. So I would turn it right back to everyone to just decide. And I think that is in and of itself a really helpful exercise.

Debbie:

Yeah, absolutely. I think that’s a great answer. And I love the connection to values. And that’s something we talk a lot about in the show is raising our kids in an environment that supports our family’s cultural values and how we want to just be and show up in the world. So that’s awesome. All right. So, well, you mentioned your book and I want to get into it. So you have a new book out, which you just shared with me, the New York Times bestseller list. So again, congratulations as an author. I know what a huge deal that is, and it’s something to be celebrated, so yay. It is worth celebrating for sure. So your book is called The Five Principles of Parenting, Your Essential Guide to Raising Good Humans. So tell us a little bit about your book. You mentioned that this was another way to get your message out to the world, but what was your biggest hope for this book and what you wanted it to do for families?

Dr. Aliza Pressman:

I was hoping this book could clear away the noise that I think we are so inundated with. And I’m part of, it’s a funny balance because I’m part of inundating parents. I just said all the things that I’m doing that are parent facing and podcast every week is not inundating parents. But I wanted to clear away the noise that just gets us kind of stuck in the minutiae that probably doesn’t matter for raising good humans, no matter what the good human is, and really offer what we know from the science matters, combined with everybody’s values and cultural backgrounds and histories and all the stuff that I can’t know what you come in with, but I can help you think about. And I wanted to offer that for the full range of ages from zero to adolescence so that everything kind of could be housed under one roof. Like I just wanted a resource for parents that gave enough information, but not so much that it felt like, now I’m gonna fixate on something that doesn’t even matter. And I also just really wanted to provide relief because I think in the inundation and the optimization culture of parenting, we are making ourselves crazy. And sadly, not to the benefit of our kids, which is the whole point. So I think it doesn’t serve us and it doesn’t serve our kids. But I also think there’s chaos in not having resources and not knowing what we know from the science and not having the support of community. So I really try to be balanced about that and I wanted the book to offer that balance.

Debbie:

Yeah, one of the things that I think your book does is it helps, what you just said, it helps parents rely less on parenting advice. I agree. I mean, I’m sure as you do, I read all the books. I have two stacks over here that I have to get through. And a lot of times they can be kind of spotlights on what we’re getting wrong. And then it’s like, oh gosh, how do I back up this truck and kind of get back on top of things. And even kind of from a tone perspective, I felt your book was really gentle, is the word that’s coming to mind. But it just felt very, it felt supportive. Like we’re kind of just having a conversation over coffee kind of thing. Just kind of talking about these things. And you cover so much ground in the book, but it didn’t make me feel anxious about things. It made me kind of expand my sense of how I want to be as a parent.

Dr. Aliza Pressman:

Thank you, that makes me so happy. I really feel like, and there are incredible books out there that are more, that are targeting specific topics and issues and challenges that are incredible. What I want to avoid though is the scary headlines that are better for marketing, frankly. It feels like it has to be, the urgency is there. And if you don’t do this, harm will come to your kids or harm is coming to your kids. So stop what you’re doing. Or, you know, there’s a lot of pathologizing about parenting that I just wanted to avoid. And also I still think there’s a lot of concrete stuff that can be helpful. But yeah, I wanted a little, I wanted to have a tender, gentle tone because for the majority of cases in the world or circumstances. That is all that is required.

Debbie:

Yeah, and just for listeners, I always like to kind of set expectations. So your book is a general parenting book in that it’s not specifically written for parents raising neurodivergent kids. I just always want to put that out there because it’s different. And I always read things through that lens of a parent of a neurodivergent kid and kind of see how would this apply to me and how accessible does it feel to me as that parent. And I did feel it was accessible. I’m wondering how you, in writing the book and putting it together, how you considered the needs of parents with very different experiences.

Dr. Aliza Pressman:

So part of the way I chose the five principles was very specifically thinking, well, would this matter to every child? Because neurodivergence is, you know, we’re seeing this as a wider net than anybody ever realized. And so I don’t actually, like I didn’t want to target parents who were thinking of neuro-typical versus neurodivergent. I really wanted to target all parents. And of course, if you are dealing with something that requires incredibly specific care, these principles still apply. But I think the second half of the book that gives kind of the more, what I call page to stage, like how does the science apply in these exact circumstances, I think some of it, I took neurodivergence into account for all of it but recognizing that there are certain areas that like in discipline, for example, where it’s just, you just need to be aware of your own child’s temperament and brain in order to translate it. But I actually really tried hard to assume that anybody reading this, maybe reading this from the lens of having a neurodivergent kid or of a neurodivergent brain.

Debbie:

Yeah, yeah, that’s great. And yeah, it is more and more of us. Now I’m starting to think there is no such thing as neurotypical at this point. So you mentioned the, and your subtitle, or let me start that over, sorry. So the title of your book is The Five Principles of Parenting, and you just kind of teased that these five principles. So I know what the five principles are. I have them written down right here. And you mentioned the word relief, which also starts with R, which is also what, yeah. So all your five principles start with a letter R. I know we can’t go into great detail, but would you mind sharing with us what those five principles are and giving us a little bit of insight?

Dr. Aliza Pressman:

I know, I’m really an R person. Sure. And that’s so funny. Relief, I forgot, was an R word. I really wanted to choose R words, because who, like in our busy minds, as I’m saying, clear away the noise, I just want to make it easier to remember. But before I go over them, I want to say that none of these are my ideas. How I put it together, I hope, speaks to people. But I took the science, robust science, from decades of research that I did not do. So I say that because I think a lot of times, first because I think it’s easier to take in and obviously those resources are in the book, but also because I get really frustrated when, like this is not about an approach that I came up with and that is like the Dr. Aliza thing. This is just me translating developmental science for parents and then how it applies practically. But, I did make the words our words because I thought it’d be easier to remember. So relationship, reflection, regulation, rules, and repair. Now some of those are in fact the language that’s used in the developmental literature about how humans thrive, but some of them I just, I squeezed them into our words that I think work really well but they are used in other ways. So relationship, you might hear attachment relationship or attachment or secure attachment or attunement or connection. That’s all under the umbrella of relationship. And reflection is actually used in the science. There’s a lot of science about reflection, but you could also think of reflection as mindfulness or pausing or looking at how you come to be who you are so that you can make more intentional decisions about how you’re raising your kids. Regulation is co-regulation and self-regulation, which are kind of inextricably linked because we just don’t live in a world without other people, thankfully. And rules was tricky because people have really big reactions to the word rules. Some of us feel quite rebellious when we hear rules, but rules encompasses boundaries and limits and are really important for safety. And we just can’t be, we can’t rely on a close relationship in the absence of the safety of rules because the relationship wouldn’t be thriving. And then Finally, repair, which is very much in the literature and really heartening and has been around for decades. And science that’s been around for decades, that’s more recently been replicated with neuroscience is always appealing because it just feels like soothing. Like, oh, this is a real thing across cultures, across communities, across brains, brain types and temperament. And it’s still pretty weighty. And so that really mattered to me because I chose principles that are in our control. Like we can actually do something about it. You can’t change or control anybody else, but you can yourself. So all the principles apply to us and what we can do as we’re raising our kids or teaching kids, or, you know, it depends on who’s listening or what the perspective is, but caregiving in any way. And that all those principles are the pathway to resilience that is in our control. So there’s a lot to do with resilience and functioning that has nothing to do with us. I don’t fixate on that because what are you going to do about it? I mean, you can make systemic changes and fight the good fight, but in general, I wanted to focus on what we can actually control. And then also I chose skills to build in our kids that are actually teachable. So it would be more challenging, for example, to build regulation skills in a neurodivergent child, but that doesn’t mean that it’s not buildable. In fact, I would argue, and I’m sure you would too, that it is more important to really build those skills. And so I tried to lean into what we can do, what we can teach, and what we can control in ourselves, and step away from telling parents all of the things that are terrible that you can’t do anything about.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s great. And it’s interesting, you know, you said you would argue that it’s more important to build those skills in our neurodivergent kids. And I would add to that, that oftentimes the ways in which we are supporting our kids in learning these skills, coping strategies, regulation skills, interoception, all of those things, oftentimes these are skills that neurotypical kids aren’t learning because if they’re not struggling in those areas. So in some ways, I think neurodivergent kids can have a leg up with some of the skill building. I’d love to just touch upon resilience a bit more and then maybe you could show us how these five principles, this pathway might be leaned on in a specific circumstance or situation. But this idea of resilience is something that I think it’s tricky. I love that you’re putting it on what can the parents control. I think that word resilience, especially again for the listenership of my show, can be a tough one because we may not kind of see these external presentations of what we might identify as resilience or we might see a child who struggles more in certain environments and then we feel, oh gosh, like we really have to help our kid get the skills so they can build that resilience, but it feels like it’s a harder lift for our kids. So could you talk a little bit more about how you define resilience and maybe just speak to that a little bit more, the things that we can do or what it might look like for our kids.

Dr. Aliza Pressman:

So for me, I think it’s, I agree, it can be so disheartening to think, well, my child is an orchid child. Like they’re not robust, they’re built to wither. And if they don’t get exactly what they need, it’s a disaster. But I think that the heartening thing is that even kids who struggle to kind of bounce back, so it feels like, oh my God, how are they going to build resilience in this world that’s going to keep coming at them, that integrating those principles into your parenting really moved the needle. And it just is a long game. So it’s, you know, when I say orchid, I mean just in the sense that an orchid takes a more specific recipe of sunlight, water and soil to thrive, whereas a dandelion is going to grow wherever, however, you just need to throw a little sunlight, water and soil at them. And I think you could consider neurodivergent kids more orchids because they’re going to thrive and bloom, but in their own way and through a lot more specific support. But then they do grow up and go out into the world. And for the flower that they are, they are robust, they just might not be a dandelion. They just might not be able to kind of just go with it no matter what. And that’s okay because resilience isn’t about that. It really is about having the capacity to know that you can get up again. And one of the things that we can control is building those skills in our kids and supporting them in the way that they need to be supported through those principles that we have in our control. We know from decades of research, going all the way back to World War I, that it matters. It matters to buffer the effects of the incoming stuff in this world that’s just feeling so hard to bear. So if we can, because I do think that that’s the big fear for parents is like, what if my child can’t bounce back? What if it’s all too much? I think when you know you’re building the capacity, you’re growing the window of tolerance, but you’re recognizing that everybody’s window of tolerance is different and needs to start, you need to meet kids where they are, it’s so heartening. It’s just like, okay, we could do this. It’s harder, but it is giving the capacity. It’s giving hope for that stretched capacity. And we want that. We just want to be able to stretch our kids, but we don’t wanna break them. And so knowing your child, particularly if you have a neurodivergent child, knowing their capacity and then building that muscle and stretching those muscles is so powerful.

Debbie:

I really appreciated that definition and description of resilience. It just really resonated for me and, again, felt gentle and not worrisome. That idea of stretching, yeah, we can do that. That feels doable. And I did appreciate that you talk about the orchid child and the dandelion child. I think that is a nice framework. And I’ve heard that before, but it does make, okay, yeah, I mean, it makes so much sense and it’s a nice kind of visual, a positive visual to keep in mind. Okay, so in the second half of your book, you walk us through how these five principles of parenting you just mentioned relationship reflection regulation rules and repair. How they can really be applied to any common parenting situation that a parent might encounter so that was great. It’s not about memorizing scripts and kind of like having it all sorted, but if you can remember how you know these five three. If you can remember these five hours, it can really help you. I would love it if you could give us an example of that. And I was going to ask you specifically about siblings because that’s a question I get asked all the time. And you actually have a great example here too of a neurodivergent sibling versus a neurotypical sibling and navigating that dynamic I thought was great. But how might we in the midst of a conflict, for example use and apply these five Rs to navigating that situation.

Dr. Aliza Pressman:

Okay, so if you’re in the midst of a conflict and the first thing to check is like, if you are in the middle of a conflict and it’s heightened, nobody’s regulated, this is not when you’re teaching anybody anything. So that’s just a reminder that I have throughout the book because you have to know and that’s why there are different principles and regulation is one of them. And if you aren’t regulated, you’re self-included, it’s not the time, then get yourself regulated. That’s the primary goal is like, is everybody safe? Those are rules. Rules make sure everybody’s safe. So if one sibling is clocking another on the head, they broke that rule and the rule is like, to not harm other people’s bodies, we need to separate those bodies and protect. But then it’s a matter of you could pick any principle in that moment. I personally think breathing is the first thing to do if nobody’s in danger. So like assuming nobody’s in danger, reflect. Because the only thing you need for reflection is to be able to take a breath. And that kind of allows you to ask yourself, what does everybody need right now? And what am I, like what story am I telling myself right now? What am I putting on one kid versus the other kid? You know, are you overprotective of one? Are you, do you kind of expect more of the other? Maybe you have one kid who is neurodivergent and one kid who is not. And without reflection, you might not notice that you’re constantly choosing one over the other because you have to, because it feels so urgent. But if you can take a moment and say like, okay, I’m setting up a dynamic here. Oh my gosh. I’m setting up a dynamic here that isn’t serving anybody. What’s this about? And again, that’s reflection, which is in the context of safety, you can do it. If nobody’s safe, you can’t do any of this. Bodies need to be safe. And then after that, you have the breath to regulate. And when you regulate yourself, you’re basically saying, there is no false alarm. I can tell my very reactive brain right now, because we get reactive when siblings are in conflict. I don’t need, my kids are not being chased by a bear. They’re not being chased by a saber-toothed tiger. Life is going to be okay. Right the second we’re all uncomfortable. And in doing that, you can say to yourself, is this a false alarm? Yes, it is. And when you know the difference between a false alarm and a real alarm, or an imagined versus real, you can actually make sure that your whole nervous system is, without saying a word to your kids, you don’t have to say to them, hey, no one’s being chased by a bear. This is not urgent. Because for them, it’s urgent because they don’t have the capacity to regulate. But what they can do is borrow your nervous system. So if you can go through this whole thing in your head, your nervous system is going to take care of their nervous system. And over time, not in that moment, but over time, it’s giving them the tools to grow their regulation. If you meet them, if everybody’s dysregulated and you get dysregulated because you haven’t been able to say, hey, nervous system, this is not an emergency, please don’t have a stress response. Because essentially that’s all this is, is we go into a stress response, which puts us into fight, have the capacity to reflect and to take a moment and to regulate because we’re going to emergency systems. But when we can set that alarm off, we can put our alarm passcode in, which typically truly is just taking a few breaths, maybe put your hands under cold water, like do the thing, you can hum. There are things that you do, you might look strange, but there are things that you can do to tell your nervous system that everybody is safe. That’s your entire job. Because once everybody is safe in your mind, again, nobody needs to say anything. Your kids being dysregulated is not going to shake you. It can’t shake you because you might get annoyed, which is reasonable, but you won’t go into that mama bear protective pouncing that can happen and then all of a sudden you have pounced on one of your kids or both of them because really what you’re saying is I’m terrified. And you don’t need to be terrified. They’re just fighting over something dumb. It just feels like it. So then I would lean into relationship and rules. Relationship is like make sure that both kids feel very clear that you love them and you get it.

You’re validating their feelings. You’re able to make sure they feel safe because you feel safe. And then the rules are just clear. Like, here’s what’s allowed in this house. This is for your safety, either emotional safety or physical safety. And for my boundaries, because I have, you know, there’s only so much screaming at me that I can take. There’s only so much space that I can combine with you. We are not the same person. I have to set appropriate boundaries and behavioral limits. And then if it all goes to shit, ooh, excuse me. If it all goes poorly, you can, and you regret how you handled it, at a later moment when you’re ready, you make repairs. And that’s like, play that on repeat, and that is parenting your whole life. This is just, so like there are obviously very specific things in the book and, you know, repair specifically might be first with yourself. I blew it. I screamed. I chose the kid that I always say that I’m not going to do that to. And I did it again. Or I put so much pressure on my child who is just always being, you know, the expectation is that they’re going to be able to rise above. Like I am gonna blow it again, but I’m gonna do my best and on balance more often than not, I keep it together. So I’m gonna forgive myself. And now I can go forth and make repairs with my kids. And that can come in the form of a real apology with a plan, with an understanding of what might’ve gone wrong and an understanding of why it might’ve felt scary. But it can also come in the form of just like, laughing, finding your way back to connection. It doesn’t have to be like a scripted apology. And all of that is, it’s almost so simple that it seems ridiculous, which is why I gave a thousand real life scenarios in the book. But in the end, with all the billions of courses you can take online, even all the interviews that I do, in the end, it goes back to that, whether you’re talking about siblings, social media, potty training, like it always comes back to the same answer. It’s just said in a more specific way based on the scenario. And so that’s the reason why I give scenarios is to make it so that this becomes sort of fluent. And I think it is fluent in a lot of us, but we don’t believe it.

Like we feel like there has to be a better answer. Like there has to be like a way. This is the way and it’s just ugly. It’s frankly just messy and ugly looking. And so it can feel like there’s an answer somewhere out there that is beyond this. There isn’t, there just isn’t. Even in the examples of discipline that I give where I’m like, choose your own adventure. If you believe in rewards, here’s the downside of rewards, here’s the upside of rewards, here’s how you give them if you choose them. It’s still ultimately part of rules and connection. It’s not, you know, it’s not just like a separate thing, a separate strategy, it’s all part of the same, you know, plug and play system that we just have to believe in. And it’s kind of like, I think the problem is, my industry at least, I’ll say, of the developmental psychology and maybe clinical. And just like our whole parenting, this very new last 10, 15 years of the parenting culture feeling so commodified, I think that if you peel back the onion, everybody’s saying the same thing. And it’s just a matter of really believing it and recognizing that there is no magic to it. And anybody who says there is a religion to this is selling you something. I mean, I know I’m selling a book, so it’s a little bit hypocritical, but I really don’t even think you… I think the book is there to translate it into the very specifics. I don’t think people need the book if they feel like, oh, well, that makes sense, then don’t get the book. I feel like I know that’s not what my publishers want me to say. I know they hate it. I’m like, you don’t have to get it. It’s just like, does a book help you navigate or do you want something on your bedside table that’s like, oh, I’m having this challenge. Oh, how does this apply to this age? Oh, what is this? But ultimately it’s the same thing translated into a bunch of different circumstances that you might be able to. Let just seep in through other ways like listening to a podcast or just having a moment with yourself or, you know, I like to provide different ways to get to the same thing, which is supporting families. So for some people, a book, either listening to it or reading it is helpful, but ultimately that is the answer, which sounds so simplified because it is. 

Debbie: 

I love that though. I mean, that feels so refreshing, just this acknowledgement that yeah, it’s messy. It’s, and there’s no getting around it. It is messy full stop. I think that is something definitely the last five years has been the message I’ve learned over and over and over again, especially as someone who consumes all of this content, yeah, and has all the tools. And I’m like, but it’s still really hard.

Dr. Aliza Pressman:

Exactly. It’s funny, I was thinking just this morning, or was it last night? I can’t even remember, but I had this moment with my daughter, my teenager, where I said something like, something along the lines of with a stern tone of voice, like you need to stop losing your temper. And then I started laughing and she started laughing because it was a ridiculous thing to say as I’m losing my temper. And I was like, oh my God. And my joke with my kids all the time is they’re like, is that your professional parenting hat that you’re wearing? Cause which they know drives me crazy. Cause I’m like, oh my God, I’m not expected to have all the answers, do everything quote unquote right or any of that, like this is messy. And also some things are easier for me because I can access them faster. I have a lot more information. But a lot of what’s easier for me about parenting is the deep confidence that I’m enough. And I don’t think most parents have the benefit of that. So I want everybody to have that benefit.

Debbie:

Hmm. So good. So good. As you shared that story about losing your temper and with your child, I remember and I wrote about this in my book, insisting that my child used those coping strategies. You need to use a coping strategy right now. And we also had a good laugh about it after we both calmed down, which took us quite a while. And I was like, actually, I’m the one who needs the coping strategies right now. So there’s so much more we could get into, but I feel like this is a great place to end this conversation. It was such a nice overview of the principles you share in your book, but I do want listeners to know there’s so much great content in there that feels supportive for us as a parent, like you talk about repairing, reparenting ourselves, I think that is such a huge thing. You talk about being done with the murder archetype, you talk about, you know, really how we can tend to ourselves. You have a whole chapter on delight, which I loved because we don’t think about delight and joy often when discussing parenting, but that was so nice to read. So I just want to encourage listeners. I know that Elisa said, don’t worry about getting the book, but I would encourage you if this conversation feels supportive to you to definitely check out the five principles of parenting. Yeah, Elisa, I so enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for all the work that you do and for breaking it down for us and for making us feel, yeah, like we’ve got this, that messy is just perfect in this case.

Dr. Aliza Pressman:

Thank you. I’m so glad you said that and I so, so appreciate it. And thank you for having me. And yes, I do deeply believe that the book is very helpful. I just don’t want to add to the to-do list for people. So I want it there as help and support and relief, but I don’t want it to be like, oh my God, a new thing that I, you know, so there you go.

Debbie:

Yeah. Well, thank you. Oh, before we say goodbye, where should listeners check you out and learn more about your work?

Dr. Aliza Pressman:

You can find me on Instagram. My Instagram is at Raising Good Humans podcast. You can get the book, The Five Principles of Parenting. And I have a website which just breaks down by episode, what ages it might be related to. There’s a link to the book and I forgot, I’m on Substack, and I just have a free newsletter.

Debbie:

Awesome. That’s great. Lots of resources, whatever kind of social media environment you like. There’s something there for you. So listeners, I’ll have links to all of that in the show notes. And thank you again, Elise. It was so nice to chat with you today.

Dr. Aliza Pressman:

Thank you so much, Debbie. Stay warm.

Debbie:

Stay dry.