Dr. Alok Kanojia on Video Game Addiction and How to Raise Healthy Gamers

Debbie:

Hey, Dr. K, welcome to the podcast.

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

It’s awesome to be here, Debbie. Thank you for having me.

Debbie:

Well, thank you for joining us to talk about How to Raise a Healthy Gamer. When I got an email about this book, I was like, bing, that is definitely something I personally wanna have a conversation with you about, but I know it will be really helpful for my listeners. But before we get into that, would you take a few minutes and tell us what’s kind of beyond the formal bio that I read in the intro and how you came to write this book?

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

Yeah, so I think my journey started with video game addiction. So I was addicted to video games. And my parents were wonderful. So they were loving, caring parents. They’re both doctors, actually. So they understood medicine and to even a certain degree, addiction. But they were just outgunned. So I think technology has grown so much and has become so invasive and incredibly addicting. And if you really think about parenting, where do we learn how to parent? We learned to parent from our parents. And so if you think about the history of humanity, every parent has had to probably deal with some concerns around addiction. But those usually start when kids are maybe in high school teenagers. But now, parents are having to deal with this stuff at the age of one, two, three. So there’s never been a parenting generation that has had to deal with such a pervasive and addictive substance that is kind of infiltrating every corner of our lives. So my parents kind of didn’t know what to do. I ended up basically failing out of college. After one year, I was on academic probation. After a second year, it was not very optimistic. And so my parents told me, or my dad was like, they tried everything. They tried to use tough love. They tried to use, you know, love, love. And nothing was basically working. So my dad told me to go to India.

And I wasn’t quite sure what I would find there, but I ended up staying at an ashram for about three months, started really getting introduced to meditation, fell in love with it, and then decided to become a monk. So I spent seven years studying to become a monk, really helped me overcome my addiction, and then ended up meeting my wife. So the whole monk thing didn’t work out. And then I was trying to figure it out, so now I’m 27, 28 years old and trying to figure out what I want to do with my life. So I decided that I want to try to go to med school. So I ended up going to medical school, becoming a psychiatrist. And then when I was training at Harvard in my psychiatry residency, I was really stunned because I was talking to my mentors about technology addiction and what they thought about it and who’s working on it. And I was super surprised because they were like, yeah, we sort of know it’s a thing, but it’s not really like a big thing right now. This was back in 2015, 2016.

And so I started really focusing on tech addiction and trying to combine my own lived experience of struggling with addiction, failing out of college, sort of introducing some of these Eastern concepts that I think we’re starting to see a lot in the field of psychiatry, like mindfulness, and then really trying to help gamers. So my target audience was not actually parents. It was younger versions of myself. So teenagers, young adults, 25-year-olds who are living in their parents’ basement, haven’t had a job, play video games all day. And so that’s where we kind of got started. And then over time, what ended up happening is as we grew in that community, and that’s the majority of our community now, we get watched by about 5 to 6 million people every month, unique viewers. Their parents started reaching out. So it’s hilarious, because sometimes we would have a kid. So one day, I remember we do a coaching program for parents as well.

So one day I was on a call with a group of parents, and then their kid walked by. And they were like, wait a second, is that Dr. K on the screen? And then the parent was like, you know who that is? And so what was really bizarre is that we started sort of like talking to parents because they didn’t know what to do. And we were talking to their kids. And so that’s kind of what our approach is, understanding really what your child is going through, understanding it from a personal lived experience standpoint from a psychiatric standpoint, from a neuroscience standpoint, from a spiritual standpoint, and then sort of helping parents help their children through those perspectives.

Debbie:

Okay, that is a fascinating story. It’s one of the most interesting kind of journeys to landing on a personal lie that I’ve heard on the show. So, wow. And I have so many questions. Okay, I actually want to back up and talk about this word addiction because, you know, I’ve had guests come on the show to talk about screen and tech use. And this idea of addiction, I think in the screen space, I’m not talking about drug and alcohol addiction and substance abuse, but in the screen space, I think there is a, maybe it’s a myth that the word addiction is overused or it’s not really fully understood what is, what does screen addiction look like. So could you explain what you mean by that and how would a parent know?

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

Yeah, sure. Yeah, so this is where what’s beautiful is when you’re saying there’s a lot of confusion, there’s only confusion for academics. So psychiatrists will argue, is this an addiction? And there’s two sides of it, and that’s a very valid argument, right? So some people that I’ve worked with, for example, who are experts in helping people with tech addictions really do believe that this is a symptom of a deeper problem like depression or anxiety. I’ve worked with those people.

And then there are other people who sort of say that, no, this is actually an addiction. That’s the camp I fall into. And I think at this point, the neuroscience evidence is really in favor of that, that video games and technology will act in the brain in a very similar way to a substance. So if we look at things that we get addicted to, they basically need two qualities. One is that it gives us pleasure and it takes away pain. And that’s absolutely what video games do. So they activate our dopaminergic circuitry, our nucleus accumbens, which sort of gives us reward, behavioral reinforcement, anticipation. We see all of that with substance use. And they also suppress our amygdala and our limbic system, which are the parts of our brain that experience negative emotions. So if I’m having a bad day and I start playing a video game, I will forget my troubles. And that’s literally what happened to me in college. The more that I started failing, the harder it was to face failure and the further I retreated into gaming. So I think we sort of see that.

But forget about the academic debate. The reason that I think it’s an addiction is because the parents tell me it is. And this is where how is a parent supposed to know? The parent knows. So you know, you trust your instinct and your gut as a parent. Is this a problem with your kid? And I tend to trust them. And they sort of know the difference between, OK, I think it’s a little bit too much, or this is a serious problem. And the parents that usually call me are the ones that are quite desperate. They’re like, we’ve tried everything, including seeing psychiatrists. And oftentimes, what they get is a diagnosis of something like depression, get started on antidepressant medication. They go home, they take their pill, and they play their video games. And so I think what we really sort of… If you know, if you’re concerned about your child, that’s enough. And that’s also why our approach is not about, okay, like this is an addiction, therefore you need to stop. Our approach is how to raise a healthy gamer. So how can you get this to a level that is healthy, where they’re living a full life? That’s sort of what our goal is. So it’s not about whether it crosses a line. For us, we have everyone in our community from people who are like 28 years old, have never had a job, didn’t graduate from college, play video games for 16 hours a day. And then we also have product managers at places like Netflix and Google and stuff like that who want to just cut back on their gaming so that they can focus more on their social life or whatever. And so our goal is not about what’s addiction and what isn’t. How do you move forward from where you are? And those techniques actually are relatively similar, irrespective of whether you’re addicted or not.

Debbie:

Yeah, super helpful. And I’ll just say, I personally am married to a gamer. And I always joke that I didn’t know he was a gamer when we first started dating and when he moved in and he set up this whole system, I was like, oh, what’s this? What is this world I did not know about? But it is definitely a part of our life. And I also have a 19 year old who was a gamer. So again, this is very personal for me, this conversation, but you talked about this idea of being a healthy gamer. So could you go into that a little bit more? What does a healthy gamer look like?

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

Great question. So what I… And this kind of starts with my lived experience too. So I think what we know now from neuroscience and psychology research on video gaming is that gaming activates a lot of different parts of our brain. And the reason that people like video games is because it is an approximation of reality. So what that means is that let’s take something like identity. So in the real world, let’s say I’m a teenager, I’ve got acne, maybe I’m not happy with my body.

I’m, it’s going through changes. I get bullied. I feel embarrassed. This is who I am in the real world and there’s no escape. I have no control over it, right? I don’t get to control whether I have acne or not. And then on the flip side, in the virtual world, I can develop an identity and I get to pick exactly who I want to be. So all human beings have a desire to have a healthy identity. This is a core psychological need to be loved, to be respected, to feel proud of oneself. These very strong circuits in the brain that drive us towards that. And now what happens in a video game is that we have an artificial version of that. But the problem is that there are parts of our brain that can’t tell the difference, which is exactly why it’s addictive. And so what we see in gaming is that we have a lot of different psychological needs that are met through the video game or neuroscience needs. And so when we become unhealthy gamers is when the game is the primary source of our needs fulfillment.

So when I am completely ashamed of myself in the real world, and instead of fixing that in any way, shape, or form, I retreat into the virtual identity, that becomes an unhealthy source of gaming. So what we really focus on is, okay, fine, by all means, play video games because video games are fun. They’re here to stay. 98% of people under the age of 30 play video games. They’re not going anywhere. And instead, what we really focus on is, how can you build a life that is worth living. So that gaming can be recreation, which is really what it’s designed for. It’s not designed to meet our needs. Actually, that’s what it is designed for by the developers. That’s what they make it for. But that’s not what it should be used for. So when all of your core needs, your physical health, your mental health, your social life, your academic life, your professional life, when these five things are satisfied in some way in the real world, that’s when you’re a healthy gamer.

Debbie:

So also just a backup, when we’re talking about gaming, what exactly are we talking about the PS? I don’t even know what the language is. The PS2, the PC game, it’s not the PS2, is it? 

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

I mean, if you’re a connoisseur of vintage gaming back when gaming was good, it’s a PS2. So, I love that you said PS2.

Debbie:

So I’m not a gamer. So tell us what are we talking about when we’re even talking about gaming?

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

Yeah, so it’s a great question. So I’d say it all kind of fits. So when I say that 98% of people under the age of 30, that includes things like mobile games. So things like whatever, Bubble Pop or Candy Crush or whatever kind of stuff. And we also know that some people, for example, like senior citizens can sometimes be very vulnerable to doing those kinds of games for hours and hours and hours. It’s really strange.

So we know that there’s basically any kind of game. So whether it’s a console game, whether it’s a computer game, whether it’s a cell phone game, iPad game, people can get addicted to all of these things. And what we also know is that there are different personality types that have a tendency to get addicted to different kinds of games. So people like women, for example, are more likely to become addicted to massively multiplayer online RPGs. Boys are more likely to become addicted to first-person shooters. So, and it seems like this is exactly how the market has evolved, there’s a lot of different brains out there. So game designers will create particular games to appeal to particular brains.

Debbie:

Hmm. And just to go into that, bearing in mind the audience of this show, is there research that shows that neurodivergent kids, especially maybe autistic kids, kids with ADHD are more prone to video game addiction?

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

120%. Absolutely. So in so many ways. So part of the challenge, let’s start with something like ADHD. So if you look at the ADHD child, the child with ADHD is living in a world that is not designed to help them succeed. So the benchmarks that we have, for example, sitting in a classroom for eight hours a day is not something we’re biologically designed for. Now, the majority of children can, their frontal lobes are strong enough to where they can sit down in the chair for long enough. But these neuro-atypical kids struggle with that. So what tends to happen is that the real world becomes difficult for them to succeed in. And if you look at a study, for example, of comorbid people with ADHD and depression, 3% of the people with depression will develop ADHD. 70% of the people with ADHD will develop depression.

And the reason for that is because growing up as a neurotypical, neurotypical kid in a neurotypical world leads to a lot of shame, a lot of ostracization. There are some studies that show that by the first or second grade, the average child with ADHD will not be invited to a single birthday party because everyone’s in line for the slide and the kid with ADHD doesn’t respect the line. The kids don’t like them. They get ostracized. So there’s a lot of negativity in the world if you’re raising an ADHD child. It’s hard to get them to study. Parents are more likely to yell. And that’s not because parents are meaner. They sort of figure out that unless I increase the volume, I cannot get my child’s attention. So then what happens is I’m struggling, right? So I’m in the world, I can’t pay attention. And the beautiful thing about a video game is it allows me to focus because it makes it very easy to focus. There’s bright lights, there are sounds, and I encourage your parents, the parents who are listening to this, to pay attention to the sensory stimuli of a video game. Look at how precise the colors are, how much contrast there is, the very satisfying base of the sound. So if my mind is all over the place and I play a video game, it helps me focus my attention. And this is true of all human beings. We love being focused and engaged in something. We love it, right? To get lost in a good book, to binge watch a show, to take a walk along the beach, to take a walk with your dog, to put your kids to sleep and kiss them on the forehead. These are the experiences that we all long for in life. But for a child with ADHD, they don’t get access to that. They can’t pay attention. They can’t get lost in a book. And so they’re denied this very fundamental experience until they encounter a video game. And now they have a 100% chance to engage in that flow state that we all crave.

And the other cool thing about video games is that in the rest of the world, right? So like in studying and stuff, I am inferior to my peers. It’s harder for me to attain academic success. But in the video game, when I’m playing a game like Fortnite or something like that, where fast reflexes, a very dynamic mind, those are things that I can compete and even excel at. So I’ve worked with professional gamers. These are like esports teams and stuff like that. And the incidence of ADHD is like two or three times the population. We’ve also worked with 500 streamers at Healthy Gamer. And the rate of ADHD is through the roof because it’s actually a competitive advantage in the streaming and e-sports world. So it allows them to excel. And what kid who is struggling in life would not love that.

Debbie:

Right. Yeah. Makes so much sense. Okay, so I wanna get into your healthy gamer approach because this isn’t about how to, you know, make your child never play video games again. It’s not how to set these really strict boundaries. It is a really respectful, I think, approach to helping your child have a relationship with something they love, but in a way that doesn’t harm them and can actually help them reach their goals. So I appreciate that instead of starting with limits and boundaries and consequences, which tends to be the default for so many of us, you implore parents to start by sitting down and talking with their child, just having a conversation. So why is that where we need to start?

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

So I love how you view that as respectful. That wasn’t what I was trying to do. We do this because it’s the only thing that works. So my day job is as an addiction psychiatrist. And there is one very simple lesson that I have learned. It applies to 100% of the patients I’ve worked with, OK? You cannot force sobriety on someone else. The person must want to be sober if you want any kind of sustained sobriety.

So the basic challenge that parents face right now is that the parent wants the child to have a healthier relationship with gaming and the child is the enemy. The child sees the parent as the enemy, they’re trying to take my game away. The parent thinks, oh my God, this child is losing their mind so they try to control the child. Y’all aren’t on the same team. So what this creates is like an escalating war of deception, right? So I once had a family that told me that, okay, we fixed the problem by taking the power cord from PlayStation and locking it up in the liquor cabinet. Kid goes on YouTube, watches tutorials about how to pick locks, learns to pick locks, sneaks down at midnight every night and plays from midnight to 5 a.m., locks the power cord back up, and then sleeps for an hour and a half before they get woken up for school. So this just doesn’t work. Like these escalating power struggles is not the goal. The other thing that we sort of realized is that the goal of the parent is to prepare your child for the world that they’re gonna grow up in and the world that they’re gonna live in. And preparing your child isn’t gonna work if your approach is restriction, because at some point they’re gonna have access to it, and then have you trained their brain to resist the pull of technology? Not at all, not if you’re using restriction. So these two fundamental things lead us to, you have to get your child on, you and your child have to be on the same team.

And as we create the team, it’s beautiful what happens. So remember that video games, the reason that your child is addicted to video games is because the game is fulfilling a fundamental need they have. They’re not confident in their body. They do not have friends. Just about every gamer that we’ve worked with, right? And at this point, this is thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, depending on what scale you’re talking about. They want friends. They want to be happy in their body. Who doesn’t want to be happy in their body? The problem is they don’t know how to get there. They think it’s impossible. So our approach is to talk to your child, ask them what is it about the game that you like, right? So what is it the game is doing for you? Let’s understand those core needs that you’re getting fulfilled. And as you understand what the needs are, okay, can we come up with alternatives that you are comfortable with that will allow you to feel better in your body?

Would you like to have more friends in real life? And this is where the kids always say yes, if you can approach them in a non-judgmental manner. So the problem is that the child will even deny that they want this stuff, because the kid feels like I’m giving my parents ammo. If I ever admit that I’m unhappy, then I’m giving my parents the ammo to take the game away. So this is where parents are so confused. They’re so confused, like, why doesn’t my kid see that there’s a problem? They absolutely see that there’s a problem. They’re just trying really, really hard to deny it, right? And the more correct you are, the more likely your child is to deny the problem, as long as there’s that antagonistic relationship. So what we kind of recommend is for the first month, be clear with your kid and even tell them, hey, I’m not gonna take your game away. I’m not gonna put any limits or anything like that. I’d like to just understand what’s going on. And a lot of parents that we worked with, they’re like you. They’re like, my spouse is a gamer, my kid is a gamer. I don’t understand this stuff. So start by understanding it.

Debbie:

Yeah, there’s a quote in the book. You said if you want to engage your kids, the first thing you have to do is just take the prize completely off the table. You must be able to have a conversation with them without having them think that anything they say is going to change how much you let them play. So that is such a good reminder and especially for our population of kids, many of whom can instantly go into defense mode, right? That we wanna kind of, and it could take a long time, as you said, of really just kind of building that connection and getting the communication going. So speaking of communication, the way that we communicate with our kids and our concerns, that is a key part of navigating the dynamic. So do you have any other kind of suggestions for having healthier communication around gaming that could really help both parties feel seen and heard in this dynamic.

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

Yeah. So my first is that both parties shouldn’t feel, don’t need to be seen and heard right away. Right? So that’s my first thought. Usually as a parent, the first thing you want to do is let your child feel seen and heard. And the beautiful thing is that your children will model after you. So if you approach them and focus on my goal is to actually have you be seen and heard over time, they will internalize that. And then they will approach the conversation. Mom, Dad, let me understand your perspective. It’s beautiful what we see, okay? So that being said, there are a couple of really good tips or techniques. I think you already shared one about, you know, just taking the prize off the table, like having a conversation that is separate from consequences. I think one thing that we strongly, strongly recommend is for parents to be super careful about how they set limits. So anytime you are angry, and you set a limit, that is a limit that you are not going to be able to enforce consistently over time. So be super careful about your own emotions. It’s amazing how many of the parents that we work with, they’re like, hey, can you fix our kid? And we’re like, no, we need to fix you. And they’re like, I’m not the one with the problem. That’s when we say we beg to differ. So what we tend to find is that parents prioritizing their own emotional tranquility and calmness is incredibly important.

So oftentimes what parents will do is they’re afraid that my child is ruining their life, but you don’t wanna scare your kid. So parents will ask all these questions that are not real questions. Don’t you think that this is a problem? Isn’t it a problem? Are you sure it’s not a problem? And so what happens is on the surface, a parent is being very, very kind and open and hey, let me ask for your opinion, but deep down emotionally, there’s a disconnect. And the kids detect that. And once the child detects a difference between the way you’re acting and the way that you feel, their guard goes up. So what we really recommend is that parents really focus on their own emotional tranquility. So if you’re afraid about something, really think through it a little bit yourself. And then the cool thing is at some point, you can even share that with your child from a tranquil space. So you can say, here’s what I’m concerned about.

So don’t pretend not to be concerned. Be authentic with your concern. But when you’re sharing your concern, you shouldn’t be panicked. Oh my god, everything’s falling apart. You’re ruining your life. No, like, hey, I’m really concerned that the direction you’re going, like, I don’t know where you’re going to be five or 10 years from now. And the beautiful thing is that when you say it so simply and with a tranquil kind of energy, your child will respond and they’ll be like, I’m terrified too, because I don’t know. I mean, your kids are smart. They know what’s going on. They know that things may not be ideal.

Debbie:

Right, so helpful. So I just want to say that I appreciate what you said about helping parents be calm and cool when they engage in these conversations. There is a lot of fear surrounding this. And I think it is important. And you know, we talk about this in the general conversations about parenting neurodivergent kids, fear can be such a strong driver. And our kids are so attuned to our energy. So it’s just a great reminder. And it doesn’t mean that we don’t get to ultimately share from a calm place the things that we’re concerned about. And they’re real fears too. Like they’re not, it’s not that our minds are kind of extrapolating and running away with us in this irrational way. I mean, I imagine in the work that you do, you’ve seen young adults and kids who are really on a path that could be difficult, right?

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

I mean, I’ve seen, I’ve lived it. So I mean, when I was 25, 26 years old, I had graduated with a 2.5 GPA, had no money. I was technically homeless for a period of three to seven days at one point. I had nothing to show for my life. So I’ve lived it, just kind of rock bottom sort of level of no money, no prospects. I had applied for over 100 jobs and gotten rejected from every single one. And it was like, so yeah, it can be very dark. And I think even the beautiful thing about sort of sharing that fear and being tranquil about it, right, is that now you and your child are on the same team. And now the question becomes, what are we going to do about this? It’s not that you need to stop because otherwise your life is ruined. It’s, hey, are you happy with the direction your life is going? Right? And then oftentimes, if we ask those kinds of questions, we can find some area of agreement where there could be an improvement. And another thing that we sort of recommend is that you really sort of start with the smallest little thing and just get on the same team and make some kind of progress.

Debbie:

Yeah. And I imagine there are people listening to this show who are at different, you know, stages in this journey. So I’m sure there are many families who are listening. They’re like, well, things are so out of control at this point. It feels like it’s impossible to put the genie back on the bottle. So what would you say to those parents?

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

So I think the road is the same. It’s just how long you have to walk it, right? So this is kind of our approach at Healthy Gamer, which we talked about. In my experience, it doesn’t sort of matter. I mean, it matters, but whether you’re addicted or you’re moderately healthy or you’re very healthy, there’s always a way to go forward. That being said, I think the biggest thing that a lot of parents really struggle with is the more behind they are, the more ambitious they are with their goals.

So we recommend something called the 25% rule, which is, this is where you are, this is where you want to go. So whatever your goal is, cut it in half, and then cut it in half again. And that should be your first target. And the challenge for a lot of parents is that’s not quote unquote enough. And this is where a lot of times as parents, we just have to accept that if your child is behind, it’s going to take them some time. I mean, I’ve had parents, kids who are 28, 30, 33 and they’ve been living this way for a decade, and it takes three or four years to get back on track. And I wish I could say there’s some way to do it in six months, but that’s just sort of what I’ve seen. And so for the parents who are in a really dire situation, I think instead of focusing on really where you want to go, just try to take a couple steps forward. And that’s really when the momentum can really start to change. Remember, there’s a difference between acceleration and velocity.

And sometimes parents who are really far behind, they want to move really fast. But the real question is, what’s the direction you’re going in? And I’ve worked with people who have been addicted to substances since they were 15. They’re now in their mid-30s and they’re getting sober for the first time in their life. And it takes time. And the one thing that I would say to parents who are really feeling like this is an unsolvable situation, one is it’s a good idea sometimes to get professional mental health support. The second is that, your child, generally speaking, is probably still relatively young. And I’ve seen people put together their lives at 35, at 38. I kind of did it around 28. You know, I finished school at 35. And so it’s kind of strange. But like, you know, just move in the right direction. Don’t give up hope. It may take time.

Debbie:

Yeah. Again, such a great reminder specifically for this audience and our kids are on different unique timelines. And, you know, I appreciate you sharing your own, you know, when you kind of hit these milestones, which may seem really late compared to some of your same age peers, but not unusual for this community and is such a good reminder to zoom out and remember, especially around screen time, what are we doing here? Like, what are the goals for our kids? So I’m also thinking of parents with kids who are quite young and maybe haven’t really dipped their toe other than like some games on the iPad or something. Are there some ways to protect or preemptively raise healthy gamers from the get-go?

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

I certainly hope so, because that’s what I’m doing with my kids. So I have a six-year-old and an eight-year-old. We all play video games. So I think there are a couple of things that we do that I think are working pretty well, or maybe I’ve just got good kids. So one is that I really encourage awareness in my children about the impact of screen time. So oftentimes what parents will do is they’ll jump to limits, only one hour a day. But what I found actually works really well, and this is kind of drawing on the yogic and meditation training, is let’s say Saturday morning they want to watch TV. So I’ll ask them, okay, how long do you want to watch for, 30 minutes or an hour? The answer is always one hour. And then I’ll check in with them at 30 minutes. I’ll say like, okay, are you having a lot of fun? And they’re like, yeah, we’re having a lot of fun. This is great. Then I check in with them at the hour and I’m like, are you all having fun? They’re starting to get cranky.

They’ve skipped breakfast. Do you all want to come down and eat something? They’re like, no. They’re getting wiggly. And then I’ll sort of say, OK, do you want to stop? Or should we? Do you all want to watch for another 30 minutes or one hour or what? And then they’ll say, we want to watch longer. OK, so another 30 minutes go by. Now they’ve had 90 minutes of screen time. And then I’ll stop them. And I’ll say, OK, we’re going to eat something, and we’re going to go to the playground. And then I will ask you an hour from now whether we made the right choice.

And inevitably what happens is they eat something, their mood improves, they go to the playground, they see their friends, they have a lot of fun, and then I’ll ask them, hey, do you wanna play at the playground longer or do you wanna go back to watching? And they’ll be like, no, we wanna stay, we’re having fun. So I think a big thing that we really need to remember is that we do need to teach our kids, we have to prepare them for this world and really encouraging them to notice that the first hour that you watch is a lot of fun, but there’s diminishing returns because that’s literally what’s happening in the brain.

We’re sort of exhausting our dopamine stores. So literally, things are less enjoyable. And really encouraging that noticing is the most important thing, I think, for parents to do with their kids. Help your child understand the effects of the game. And now we’ve reached a point where my kids don’t even want to play or whatever first thing in the morning. They’ll ask a couple of times throughout the day and sometimes will be indulgent. And I think that’s really important, too, is that your kids understand that you’re not especially restrictive, that you’re okay and the real goal is to have fun, to be healthy, and really talk to them about that kind of stuff. So what would you rather do? Hey, let’s try it. Let’s try playing a game for four hours at a stretch and see how we feel.

Debbie:

Yeah, I really like that approach. And again, what we want to do is raise kids who understand themselves really well and know how to tune into their bodies. And again, it’s also not a lesson our kids learn overnight. It happens over a lot of time and a lot of patience on our part as parents. And asking those questions, being curious, being a reflective listener, which you talk about in the book, is so super helpful. I don’t want to wrap up this conversation asking you the question that I know you get asked all the time, which is about screen time limits, setting limits on how much time is the right amount of time. You say, if you’re insistent on capping the number of hours a day, your child games, it will likely just become a nightmare of enforcement. I have been there. I totally relate to that. And so you recommend shifting from that perspective to a more holistic approach such as completing things on your to-do list. And then you can play as much as you want until bedtime. Can you talk about getting out of that mindset of tallying up hours and rather reframing?

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

Yeah, so I think the main thing that we’ve sort of discovered is that parents adopt a strategy that is very high friction. And there are ways to get what you want from your kid without having to fight. And I know it sounds crazy, but just hear me out. Okay? And this is because I’m a gamer. So one of the things that infuriates me as a gamer is playing one hour a day. That’s like a waste of time. Because one hour a day is just when you’re getting started. So what I really love doing, and what a lot of gamers really love doing, is binge gaming. And so oftentimes what we find in our community is when you have parents of teenagers, for example, you just ask them straight up, what’s the most fun you have in gaming? And the most fun that I have in gaming is when I’m on, all my friends are on, and it’s like, let’s go one more, one more. You can’t quit on a loss, and you can’t stop on a win, which means that you have to play one more. That’s what’s really fun. Like, I have memorable times when I was growing up where we were doing that. So even asking your kid, hey, would you rather play one hour a day or would you rather play six hours on Friday night? I will order you a pizza. You can stay up as long as you want to. You can sleep in on Saturday morning. And what you’ll often find is that when you understand what your child likes about gaming, here you are trying to enforce this arbitrary limit. And instead, you can get them on board. And the kid is like, wait, I can stay up as long as I want to on Friday, not only on Friday and Saturday.

But come noon on Sunday, you have to finish your chores on Saturday, and come noon on Sunday we’re going to hang out together from 12 to 8, no complaints. And then during the week, you’re going to do all of your schoolwork. You’re going to do all of your extracurriculars. I’m going to check everything on Friday at 5 p.m. And if everything is done, the gaming weekend begins. And what we tend to find is these kinds of approaches where you enroll your child and help them understand, okay, what are the goals? What are your goals? And I, as a parent, get to have some goals too, right? It’s not just you’re running the show. So one of the things that we’ll sort of advocate for is your child gets a say, but not necessarily a vote, right? So they absolutely get to advocate. And then really crafting something that works for them. And you, as a parent, if they’re… It’s crazy. Like, we’ll get parents that their kids don’t play games four or five days out of the week. And the parent is happy, and the kid is happy. So that’s really what we recommend is that you don’t focus on… because it’s so arbitrary, one hour a day. And frankly, it pissed me off when I was growing up and my parents did that. I was like, y’all don’t get… this is terrible, right? I want to really enjoy it freely.

Debbie:

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and you bring up a good point, I think if you are a parent who isn’t a gamer, you don’t get it. And so part of it is really learning to understand what your child enjoys about it. And that starts with having those conversations we talked about in the very beginning. So before, before we say goodbye, your book is called How to Raise a Healthy Gamer and you have a healthy gamer program. Can you tell listeners about that and how they could learn more?

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

Sure, so they can just go to healthygamer.gg, and there’s a parent section. The book is available basically anywhere where books are sold. But one of the things that we’ve noticed is that parents often times will need more support. So we have an online community, and we also have a program that can include coaching where it’s super cool because our coaches are your kids. So they’re people who have grown up with this challenge. And it’s an evidence-based program, so it’s based on the peer support model, which the World Health Organization and the Office of the U.S. Surgeon General, like all of these institutions, have recommended this kind of approach. And so what we can really help parents do is understand in more detail what’s going on with their kids. And so, but I think the book is basically a distillation of that program. And then if you need more one-on-one support with a coach, they’re more than welcome to sign up there. But we tend to teach a lot of the basics in the book that we really get good mileage out.

Debbie:

Yeah, great. Yeah, and it’s very readable. And I just have to ask you, you know, when you’re thinking about other kinds of addiction, again, substance abuse, substance addiction, it’s usually an all or nothing approach. There are very few people who can have a relationship with alcohol or drugs if they have been an addict. And I’m assuming it’s different for gaming. Is it possible to have been addicted to gaming and have a healthy relationship with games?

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

I mean, I think so. So I used to be addicted and literally failed out of college. And then, you know, now I’m happily married and I have a job and whatnot. And I think if you look at the neuroscience supports it too. So I think this is where when we look at the behavioral addictions, someone who’s addicted to sex, we would not expect them to be celibate. Our treatment goals for something like sex addiction, our shopping addiction, you’re addicted to shopping, you’re never allowed to buy anything ever again. You’re sober from spending money. That doesn’t work in the world we live in. And when we look at technology, like you can survive without nicotine or alcohol, caffeine. You can survive without those things. I don’t know if you can survive without technology use. You could probably survive without gaming, but you don’t need to. Right? So with the behavioral addictions, this is where there is a neurobiological difference. And so you can absolutely achieve that. And our goals are the same for my patients who are addicted to sex or shopping, which is let’s use it in a healthy way and not use it in an unhealthy way.

Debbie:

Great, thank you. Thank you so much. Such an interesting conversation. We’ve talked about screen and tech use multiple times on the show, usually with a kind of mentorship over monitoring approach. So this is in alignment with that. And I just appreciate everything that you shared today and good luck with the book.

Dr. Alok Kanojia:

Thank you so much, Debbie. Yeah, it’s awesome. I think y’all are, I think there’s a reason why everyone is kind of taking this approach because it works, right? Mentorship over monitoring, because that’s really more effective in the long run. So beautiful. Take care.