Eliza Fricker Talks About Parenting a Child with PDA (Pathological Demand Avoidance)

Debbie Reber  00:00

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Eliza Fricker  00:22

You’re living with an enormous amount of uncertainty because you always have to be extremely flexible. So there aren’t strategies that you can use that are failsafe and you stick to those and it’s going to work. It changes continually, because within that you’ve also got a person who wants that autonomy over their situation. So if there’s any moment where they feel that that autonomy is being taken away from them, then they’ll need to change that up again.

Debbie Reber  01:00

Welcome to Tilt Parenting, a podcast featuring interviews and conversations aimed at inspiring, informing and supporting parents raising differently wired kids. I’m your host Debbie Reber. On today’s episode, I’m talking with Eliza Fricker about PDA, an acronym that technically stands for pathological demand avoidance, although I know many people who interpret PDA as a persistent desire for autonomy. I’ve done a few episodes on PDA before I’ll have links to those in the show notes, but never from a parent’s perspective. So after reading a licensed insightful book, The Family Experience of PDA, I knew I wanted to share her perspective with this community. During the episode, Eliza and I talked about how demand avoidance is more extreme in a child with a PDA profile, versus the inflexibility or rigidity we might see in other neurodivergent kids. We also get into what Eliza has learned about herself parenting a child with PDA, and what her resistance was to the changes needed to her parenting style. She also shared some great tips for teachers who have a PDA student in their classroom, and for parents who are struggling with family, friends or people close to them, who aren’t willing to understand what PDA is and what that means for their family. Let me tell you a little bit more about Eliza before we get into the show. Eliza Fricker is the illustrator behind Missing the Mark, a deeply personal and human exploration of a mother’s journey navigating the education system and everyday life with a child who can’t go to school. In addition to writing the family experience of PDA, Eliza has also launched a limited run companion MISSING THE MARK podcast and launched a series of talks, consultations and online courses to support parents who are in similar situations. Her latest book Can’t Not Won’t will be published by Jessica Kingsley publishers in December 2022. And if you live in the US, Eliza will be joining two other experts on PDA, Harry Thompson, who has also been on the show before and Laura Kerbey for a US tour this fall. And they’ll be hosting these live events about PDA in Miami, Southern California, St. Louis and New York starting November 2. So the tour is being hosted by NEST which stands for neurodivergent education, support and training. To learn more and get tickets visit n-est.org. That’s n-est.org. I’ll also have a link for that in the show notes page for this episode. Lastly, if what I’m doing until parenting and the guests I bring onto the show are providing support and encouragement and hope for your family. And you’re ready to dive deeper with me and uplevel your parenting progress. I invite you to check out my high touch membership community, the Differently Wired Club. Think virtual office hour calls, coaching calls, expert guests monthly themes connection with other parents like you and much more. I used to only open the doors three times a year. But now there’s an enrollment window open at the end of every month. Just visit tiltparenting.com/club for all the details and to get pre registered today. That’s ttiltparenting.com/club Thanks so much. And now here is my conversation with Eliza.

Debbie Reber  04:38

Hey Eliza, welcome to the podcast.

Eliza Fricker  04:40

Thanks for having me.

Debbie Reber  04:42

I’m really looking forward to talking about your work and your book. I have done a few episodes on PDA but not from the parent perspective and you have such a unique lens and your book is amazing and the way that you can share this experience in such an accessible gettable way. I’m just thrilled to be able to share this with my listeners. Before we get into that, can you take a few minutes and just introduce yourself? Tell us a little bit about your personal why and who you are.

Eliza Fricker  05:10

Yeah, sure. So my name is Eliza Fricka. And I am an author and illustrator. And I started out actually illustrating my blog a couple of years ago, which is called MISSING THE MARK dot blog. And that was really, I had a background in design and illustration, but then my child became too unwell to go to school. That was really the blog was to help me process eight years really of struggling within the education system and the systems of support. So for me, my medium has always been illustration. And that helps me to process things. So I started with missing the mark. And it was from there that I was asked to write a book about PDA. And things have kind of escalated within the realm of writing about all sorts of things within the education system and neurodivergence. So yeah.

Debbie Reber  06:11

I often talk to people on this podcast whose personal world has kind of meshed with their parenting worlds and collided in the best possible way. And it really seems like that has been the case for you. Although I imagine this wasn’t part of your big career plan when you became an illustrator.

Eliza Fricker  06:28

No, it wasn’t, I think something that I found very difficult to access within that world of parenting, particularly a child with extra needs was any positivity, it was quite gloomy. And I’m not a gloomy person. So for me, being able to put that empathy into those drawings. And the humor as well was really important. I want to share positivity. And actually, what’s come out of this, and the work that I do feels so much more meaningful than when I was designing wallpaper and working in that world, which now I still buy the interior magazines, and they feel quite empty to me now home. But that was so vacuous and shallow compared to what I do now. I love bringing positivity to situations. And there always is. And I think that that’s what I try and show as my work is that actually it’s the systems that are disabling. And we have to find our own way of doing things that works.

Debbie Reber  07:29

So when you started Missing the Mark, how many years ago was that? You got a book deal out of that. So you drew attention. But what was the response from people who found your blog and found that it really resonated with them?

Eliza Fricker  07:43

Yeah, so I think I started it in about 2019. And again, that was the other side of it was that for me, it was incredibly isolating our experiences, when you’re standing at that school gate, and you’re under that gaze and comparison of other families and other parents, you do feel quite other. And I was amazed when I started drawing it, how many people got in touch with saying, this is our life. Thank you for drawing this. And that connection that came about and the people that I’ve met through drawing this just to help other people feel less isolated, because often the situations that I’m drawing are incredibly difficult to convey to even friends and family. And I think there’s some way that the drawings given much more of an insight into it than a long ranty email to a relative or professional, which we’ve all done many times within this journey.

Debbie Reber  08:40

Yes, for sure. listeners will get into the book. It’s called the Family Experience of PDA: An Illustrated Guide to Pathological Demand Avoidance. But you just have such a way of capturing this experience with very few words and deeds, situations that you instantly get, and it is so powerful and refreshing. And so what a great tool for people to have to be able to say Here, read this and you’ll really get what we’re going through. I would love to know, in your experience, because I think there are people who don’t quite get PDA, could you talk a little bit not necessarily the difference between a PDA profile and a neurotypical kid but even within neuro divergence, what is it about PDA in your experience? That is kind of more extreme?

Eliza Fricker  09:28

I think you’re living with an enormous amount of uncertainty because you always have to be extremely flexible. So there aren’t strategies that you can use that are fail safe and you stick to those and it’s going to work. It changes continually, because within that you’ve also got a person who wants that autonomy over their situation. So if there’s any moment where they feel that that autonomy is being taken away from them, then they’ll need to change that up again. So that’s what you’re doing constantly, you’re constantly assessing the way that you present things, your language has to be indirect all the time. So you’ve got that one element, then you’ve got to consider how that activity or that day is going to go and what those variables are. So I think a lot of it is things that they’re not seeing. And the things that you’re internalizing as the caregiver, you’re constantly assessing and trying to gauge what level they’re at and what their tolerance levels are. So all of that’s going on for you internally. And that takes quite a lot to do that all the time. And that’s why it’s very difficult, in an educational setting for them to be able to do that, particularly when they’re working within they have their ways and their ways of doing things. It’s only really in the home where you can do that constant flex, which is needed.

Debbie Reber  11:00

Yeah, I mean, what you’re describing is just so much kind of behind the scenes work. And I imagine it requires so much presence, right? We talk on this show about showing up for your child every day, and trying to be as present as possible. But again, you illustrate this so beautifully in the book, it is such an intentional presence and requires a lot of use of flexibility, just being nimble, just being able to kind of go with the flow. If you’re willing to share just personally for you, did you have resistance to making that pivot and parenting in that way?

Eliza Fricker  11:34

Yes, I did. I think for most parents, we’ve grown up with certain constructs and beliefs around parenting. And I think for most of us, there is a shedding of, by historical how we were brought up, we have to do an element of that. And I think actually, the way that I look back at it, I would say that we started on a route of quite connected parenting, we were co-sleeping, it was all quite gentle. It was because of my job that afforded me to be at home most of the time. It then change when those systems came in when nursery school came in, and when school came in, because they were very much set systems. And they that was when we saw that it wasn’t working. But we had this new narrative coming in, where they should be able to do that. You should leave them, you should toughen up, we had all those narratives coming in which they work with you, you know, you end up questioning what you’re doing. And I think that’s the most tricky part because you’ve got your inner sense of what you feel is right and how you should be doing it. But every day you’ll be met with this other. And that was really, really tricky. And it was only when we started to really pull back on that and start to say, Okay, well, why does it matter if we’re late? What’s gonna actually happen if we are late for school and little, little things like that, once you start saying that to yourself, changes things again, because what happens is when you’ve let those narratives and that advice in your anxiety does ramp up with that. And so being able to just say, Okay, well, we’re not doing that anymore. Let’s see what happens when we don’t do that. And I always talk about one of the big changes for us was not eating dinner at the table. At the end of the school day, which had been demand laden, I had this fixation. I don’t know whether it’s having an Italian family, but that we had to sit at the dinner table, you know, we have to eat this square meal and sit at the dinner table. And I got really bogged down with that thinking we had to do that. And actually, once I removed that, and thought, why do we need to do that at the end of the school day, that’s another demand. And took that away. It was again, another one of those moments where you think, Oh, my goodness, why are we doing?

Debbie Reber  14:08

Yes, in my book Differently Wired, the very first, I call them Tilts, but reframe is to question everything that you thought you knew about parenting. So I love that example. And you know, you have some other examples like that in the book. And that also made me think of Alfie Cohn’s work with Unconditional Parenting. And we so often get on autopilot, and we prioritize things without questioning why they’re important. So I just really appreciate that example. And that one change could make a huge difference for a child with PDA. You talked about school briefly, and you’re in the UK. I have a lot of listeners in the UK, but a majority are in the US where PDA isn’t fully recognized, although there is a growing awareness here, but I’m just wondering about the educational experience and having a child with the PDA profile. Is it possible for that child to have a school experience in a traditional setting? Can those two things ever be in alignment? Or is it kind of an uphill climb the whole way?

Eliza Fricker  15:11

I mean, you’ve got to think that in England, we’re still harking back to the Victorian values offering. But it’s very much in our education system. So within the mainstream system, I think the stats are pretty bleak. I think the PDA society talk about 70%, of PDA profile children and not in education, I think you’d have to look at our education system, and what it is and what it stands for and school uniforms, it’s learning by rote, it’s homework, there isn’t much difference from one mainstream school to another. However, we do have different educational settings that you can access if you have the right paperwork, legal documents to support that. So we’ve been very fortunate that we now have an independent specialist setting, which does a much more kind of democratic way of learning. It’s very strength based, it’s holistic, there’s lots of stuff. But in the mainstream, it’s incredibly difficult. And I think that something that parents get quite upset with is the teachers not doing more. But you have to remember the teachers are as stuck in these systems, you know, many of them go into teaching for the right reasons, and find out that there is restricted in what they can bring to those children in those lessons as well.

Debbie Reber  16:43

Yes, 100%. It’s tricky for everybody involved. And I’m just wondering, I’m sure there are teachers listening to this too, are there certain approaches or tweaks they could make with a child with PDA in the way that they teach them or support them or show up for them in the classroom that could make a difference?

Eliza Fricker  17:03

I think if they can offer as much flexibility within that system that they’re in, if we’re talking about the mainstream setting, often it’s things like allowing for lots and lots of breaks within that day, allowing that child to come out of that classroom and do something else, all of the support that you will offer, a child with PDA will meet to be very, very subtle, they won’t want to look any different from their peers. So there’s no point sticking a laminated visual timetable in front of them and giving them timeout cards, they’re probably going to rebuke rebuffed that. So you’ve got to work, it’s going to be very much sort of person centered. So it’s going to be someone that they really trust in that school coming in and offering them a job to do so that they don’t look any different. They pop out with them or subtle thumbs up. And again, that creativity that we bring into how we do it at home is going to be the same in that setting. But that person is going to be absolutely essential, they’re going to need that co-regulation from a person is not going to work with you know, I often joke about the the laminated worksheet, which is what we get given in our school system, you know, that’s not going to work. It’s got to be a person.

Debbie Reber  18:19

Yeah, I’d love to go back a little bit to the PDA profile. And I’m just wondering, because I know that you talk a lot about this, you’re gonna, we’ll share the link, but you’re going to be actually doing a US tour to further understanding about PDA here in the US, which is great. How would you describe to someone who just pushes back and says Listen, all kids don’t like demands placed on them, all kids with ADHD are demand avoidant, you know, a lot of autistic children are rigid and inflexible. Can you just talk a little bit about how you would describe, in your experience and in the work that you’re doing, how this shows up differently?

Eliza Fricker  18:58

Well, I think a lot of the supports do work for other children. And actually, someone put a review recently from my book and said, I’m sharing this with friends with neurotypical children, and they’re saying this is working for them. Because most of it is really kind of relationship based. That is the center of it. And it’s connected parenting. And all children want that, you know, all children want to have time just really hanging out with someone who genuinely wants to be there and genuinely wants to spend time with them. The differences the PDA child is going to be much more astute at working out who’s genuine, who’s not. But all of it is very much about spending time working collaboratively. So you’re not asking them to do something. It’s much more shall we? I wonder if these are things that can work up across the board, because actually what you’re doing is removing that hierarchy. And you’re working as a team. And people are really shocked when I say we don’t have any rules in our house. But we have a really, really well behaved child who wants to do things correctly, and we don’t have that behavior. And we’ve got a teenager, but it’s because we talk about things collaboratively with them. What time do you reckon you can get back tonight? Because they’ve started getting their teenager now, what time do you think it’s good to? Rather than I want you back? There’s nothing to push back again. That sort of thing?

Debbie Reber  20:37

Yeah, it really is. You have a section in here talking about chores, because as you’re talking, I’m thinking, I know, I’m gonna have listeners who say, Okay, what do I do when I’ve got multiple kids, one PDA kid, and I take all demands off that child, but I want my other child to do X, Y, and Z. Do I let everyone off the hook? So I would love your answer to that. But I also would love you to speak to how you have addressed being helpful and being a contributing member of a family with chores. It sounds like it still happens. It just looks different.

Eliza Fricker  21:11

Yeah, I mean, I would say the chores don’t really happen. Someone might correct me on this. I think that’s more of a cultural thing. I think in America, that’s more of a thing than here. I don’t think we’re so into getting kids to do chores, I would say, Harry Thompson always talks about the kind of, well, there’s two things as the inspiration over instruction, and then the what’s in it for me. And you have to think about that, you know, for a lot of children, who are neurodivergent? Why would they do that? What is in it for them, and actually, they will get there. I did a post the other day, they will get there when they get their children learn by osmosis. If you are kind as an adult, and they see you being kind and they see you being active, and they see you partaking in things. That’s how they learn. They learn by seeing what you’re doing, and they will become an adult, more than likely very similar to that. If you’re barking orders at them. They are very likely to become another adult who barks or does it someone, but actually, children will get there. And you know, Henry Thompson talks about being a PDA adult, you know, he can drive a car, He cleaned his flat, you know, all these things people see when their children are struggling within the school system. And they think I don’t think they’ll ever get there. They’ll never get to this amazing place of being adult who can thrive for themselves. But they do get there, but they get there through us being kind and showing encouragement, and on their own timeline. Yeah.

Debbie Reber  22:48

And on their own timeline, as you said, which is I mean, that’s the case with all differently wired kids, right. They’re on their own unique timeline, listeners. So Harry Thompson, who Eliza has mentioned a couple times he was on the show, and I’ll have a link in the show notes page. He ‘s the author of the PDA Paradox: The Highs and Lows of My Life on a Little Known Part of the Autism Spectrum. He calls himself a PDA ambassador, right? Yeah, yeah, very knowledgeable. And that first person experience which is so helpful.

Debbie Reber  23:20

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Debbie Reber  24:11

I love the relationship based on this connective parenting and you know, in the way that you describe it, I often say that those of us raising neurodivergent kids, it is a more extreme form of parenting. And there are so many gifts that come with it. My kids started their senior year of high school today, as we’re recording this and we’re very close, like because of the relationship that we’ve had and I don’t know what it’d be like to have a neurotypical kid so I can’t say for sure, but I do appreciate the way that my child has demanded I show up for them has changed who I am and the way that I get to experience that relationship and that’s something I’m really grateful for. So the gifts of PDA What else have you learned parenting a demand avoidant? child’s sounds like you had to unpack some beliefs or ideas you had about the way to be a parent even though it sounds like from the beginning, you were very connected and co-sleeping, and we’re doing that approach. But what else have you learned about maybe yourself and about what you think is a more respectful way to parent kids?

Eliza Fricker  25:18

Yeah, I think a lot has to come from us as the adult, I think we probably have to do the toughest lessons come from really looking into ourselves and, and looking back at things from our childhood, the way that we were parented. And I think sometimes we stick to those things. Because that’s how we were raised. And it is okay to say, I’m gonna do it differently. Or just because that happened to me, doesn’t mean I have to do it again. I mean, my dad jokes, he always says, You’ve got to fight the gene pool, always fight that gene. And I love you, you just question it all. And I think that that’s something that’s amazing. When you do parent differently, do you question it all? And you just say, But why, though? Why is that important? I’ve got a page in the book, pick your battles, which is an old saying that you can look back on that. And it became a bit of a joke in our family, when we had see sort of other families really, you know, barking orders at a child when we were out and about, and we were like, why is that important? You know, if they don’t put their coat on, they’re gonna get cold. But that’s okay. You know. So it’s all of that you really start to look at everything, and go back and question it and, and I’ve done a lot of stuff for myself to make sure that I am able to, to be there and be able to parent as best I can. And you know, for me, exercise has been a massive help for me. I’m very slim, but I do weightlifting. And I do boxing. And that just keeps me sane. So you find those things that really work for you. There is a lot of work to be done on ourselves on this journey. And I always say have lots and lots of fun, because I think we can get really bogged down in things and actually, just having a fun, nice time is not going to hurt anyone.

Debbie Reber  27:16

Absolutely. I love that you have a chapter about self care in the book and not in a like self care woowoo spa day way, but like how do you show up for yourself? And there is a big emphasis on fun and silliness and how that can just pivot everything. And you have a lot of good illustrated examples in here about how saying one thing, I think and one of them is like a pratfall, like just things that can completely change everything in that moment. So I really appreciate that. You mentioned other families. And I do just want to quickly ask you, if you have advice for listeners who feel misunderstood by whether it’s their relatives, their own parents, of their parents in the community who just don’t get it, like how have you deflected the the doubters or just kind of dealt with people who didn’t get it or care to understand it?

Eliza Fricker  28:11

Yeah, I think particularly with PDA, because, as you mentioned earlier, it’s something that because it’s not in the DSM-5 manual, it’s, some professionals particularly can be very well, they just won’t entertain the idea of PDA. So you could say, My child is PDA and they will say, well, we don’t believe in that or we don’t, we don’t see that we don’t agree with that, or whatever. That can be really challenging. So often, I just talk about really simple things and don’t even mention PDA, you know, if you’ve got in laws that are like, Oh, another label, you’re putting another label on your child, just talk about the profile of PDA, say that your child has extreme anxiety. And that leads to avoiding demands, you can put all of that in place without mentioning PDA. A parent said to me, a friend said that they actually just emailed their family before Christmas, which isn’t again, you know, tricky time, very demand lead and a lot of expectation. She said, I just emailed my parents and I said, just to let you know, he won’t be eating at the dinner table. He’s going to have a pizza. And actually, just by emailing her parents, they could hear that, you know, they had time to read it. Time to sit with it. Because often we feel so tense and we’re so stressed and we’re trying to explain all of this stuff about our child and then we feel rejected because people don’t get it and so it’s as well as making these accommodations for children. We sometimes have to do it with the people around us as well. Okay, well, how is it gonna work and I always took that bullet points. Because this is another thing often as parents, we write these long emails to people, you know, professionals, just a couple of bullet points because they’re not going to read it. They’ve got like a gazillion other emails. How are you going to get that information over that is really, really important. So it’s finding ways that you can communicate with people. And then just sifting out the ones that just don’t get it if it’s going to make your life really tricky, you know, politely tiptoe away from them. Because if it is going around to your friends, and you’re feeling that way of expectation and demand, and it’s just tricky for them, just skip it, you’ve got a great excuse not to go.

Debbie Reber  30:20

Yeah, absolutely. First of all, that’s great advice. Because this is something again, I think applies to all parents, raising any sort of neurodivergent kid, especially around family expectations, holidays, and all that stuff. So I appreciate that reminder to just kind of say what you need and prioritize what you know, is best for your child and your family. Do you have any other advice for parents who are overwhelmed who are raising a child with PDA and are just feeling really stuck?

Eliza Fricker  30:47

Yeah, I think I think particularly when you are working with a school system, and you know, it would be, it’s easy to say, we’ll just skip the school system and do it your own way. But that’s not always possible for families, you know, there’s work commitments, not all of us can just be at home with our kids. But I would just say Just do as much of the kind of low demand approach that you can, when they’re not in school. So after school at weekends, you know, don’t plan a lot of stuff at the weekend, give them time just to chill out. I know, screen time is a big one, isn’t it because parents feel like, should they be on the screens as much as they are. But you know, all of that giving them that break, to just chill out gives you that break to chill out as well. So just keep it low demand for all of you really pull back on all of that stuff. And I think if you see them start to see more regulated at home and karma, then it’s going the right way. And I think most of these children work out, okay, once they have more autonomy in their lives anyway, you know, most ended up going to college when they can choose what they want to do. And they have that autonomy. So yeah, just go low demand for all of us have a bit of a nicer time.

Debbie Reber  32:09

That’s great. Thank you so much for that. And also listeners read Eliza’s book, The Family Experience of PDA because a way that you share the scenarios and the kinds of situations that parents are going to find themselves in and so simply show a different way of navigating that. I know that it must help so many parents feel seen. And that, as I know, from till parenting is just one of the most important things.

Eliza Fricker  32:35

Yeah, we’ve actually got the educators one coming out next. So that’s going to be out next year. We don’t have the date yet. So we’ve just finished it. It’s just gone off to the publisher.

Debbie Reber  32:45

Oh, that’s exciting. Yeah, that’d be really good.

Eliza Fricker  32:47

So I’ve co written that with Laura Kerbey co-written it. I say she did all the words this I just did the drawings. But that’s going to be Yeah, the educators. Even though my book has been used by teachers, I think this is going to be really good for parents to give to those that are working with their children.

Debbie Reber  33:04

That is fantastic. Wow, that’s wonderful. I saw that you have a book coming out in December of 2022. Can’t Not Won’t. Is that the book?

Eliza Fricker  33:13

Yeah, no. So Can’t Not Won’t is about that difficult bit of a child who cannot access school or is trying to access school. So that’s much more of a sort of illustrations that are on Missing the Mark. And really to highlight the difficulties for a lot of our children to access an education. That’s why it’s called Can’t Not Won’t, because it’s not that they don’t want to, it’s that they cannot. So hopefully that’s going to add a little bit to the discussion already going on about attendance. I don’t know if it’s a big thing where you are, but it’s a big issue here around the government’s hardline on attendance.

Debbie Reber  33:57

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That’s great. I’m grateful that you’re doing the work that you’re doing. And listeners, I’ll have links to all of these resources. And I’ll update it as you have new books coming out. So definitely check out the show notes page for this episode. And then before we say goodbye, let listeners know where they can find you. And tell us a little bit about what your upcoming US tour is going to be about.

Eliza Fricker  34:21

Yeah, sure. So my website is missingthemark.blog. I also have Facebook and Twitter which are quite quite active on those. Facebook’s good because I have a lot of other communities that I work with, and who I share things with doing on there. So work that I’m doing with Dr. Naomi Fisher, who wrote Changing Our Mind. I also do a lot of stuff with NEXT, which is Laura Kerbey’s, who I’ve written the book with, and Harry Thompson. And there’s details about the upcoming US tour which is in November where we’ll be going to Florida, California soon Louis in New York. So that’s where we’ll be doing lots of PDA training. And as well as we’ll be sort of doing presentations more and then consults for parents so they can come back in with us, and talk all things PDA, which is very exciting. So yeah, I think that’s all of it, we can share the links for those.

Debbie Reber  35:19

That would be great. That’s wonderful. Well, thank you so much. I’m so happy that we were able to connect. And I’m just always thrilled when I find people who are supporting other parents because of their own experience in bringing their talents to make this a just a better journey for all of us. So thank you so much. I just appreciate everything you share today.

Eliza Fricker  35:39

Thanks for having me.

Debbie Reber  35:42

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