Emily Kircher-Morris on Stigma, Labels, and Neurodiversity Affirming Parenting

Emily Kircher-Morris  00:00

But there are still very few professionals who understand how giftedness impacts those diagnoses and how you have to interpret those different scales. And it’s really frustrating when I have a kid who I know is twice exceptional. And I send them and try to get them to go get an evaluation and wherever they end up because of insurance or who knows whatever reasons. And sometimes they come back with a diagnosis totally off base, because they haven’t even done a cognitive assessment or they don’t understand how those cognitive assessments influence things.

Debbie Reber  00:38

Welcome to Tilt Parenting, a podcast featuring interviews and conversations aimed at inspiring informing and supporting parents raising differently wired kids. I’m your host Debbie Reber. On this week’s episode, I’m talking with Emily Kircher-Morris, a specialist in twice exceptional or 2e learners, and a leading voice in the neurodiversity movement. With dual master’s degrees in counseling and education, Emily has taught in gifted costumes, has been a school counselor, and is now in private practice as a licensed professional counselor, where she specializes in helping gifted and twice exceptional kids. Emily is the author of two books related to the development of 2e learners, Teaching Twice-Exceptional Learners in Today’s Classroom and Raising Twice-Exceptional Children: A Handbook for Parents of Neurodivergent Gifted Kids. She’s also the president and founder of the St. Louis based nonprofit Gifted Support Network and host of The Neurodiversity Podcast, which explores parenting counseling techniques and best practices for enriching the lives of neurodivergent people. During this conversation, we went deep into the stigma surrounding neurodivergent labels. We examined how the awareness of twice exceptionality has changed in school and screenings in the last decade, and looked at the skills Emily considers to be important for parents to help their neurodivergent kids with. Emily also shared some powerful advice on how to be neurodiversity affirming, that I think can change the way we approach these unique learners both in our communities and in our classrooms. If you want to dive deeper into my conversation with Emily, please check out the show notes page until parenting. There you’ll find a bullet-pointed list of key takeaways, a transcript of the whole episode, links to all the resources mentioned in a podcast player with the episode broken down into chapters. So if you want to go back and re-listen to a specific piece of the conversation, you can easily find it. This week’s episode can be found at tiltparenting.com/session274 or just go to the podcast tab on Tilt Parenting and click on this episode at the top of the page. Thank you so much. And now here is my conversation with Emily.

Debbie Reber  03:03

Hey, Emily, welcome to the podcast.

Emily Kircher-Morris  03:06

Thank you so much for having me.

Debbie Reber  03:08

Yeah. Well, I’ve been on your podcast, Mind Matters Podcast, which I think you changed the name to The Neurodiversity Podcast. Is that correct?

Emily Kircher-Morris  03:17

Yes, yes, we did change that. We changed it back well, in January of 2021, whatever year we’re in now. And so I think it was a good opportunity for us to reach a bigger audience.

Debbie Reber  03:28

Yeah, I agree. So I bet a lot of listeners have listened to your podcast and are familiar with kind of who you are and the work that you do. But I’d love to know a little bit more about your personal story and how you came to be doing the work that you do in the world. Could you share that with us?

Emily Kircher-Morris  03:43

Sure. Well, I think so many of us in the neurodiversity field, or a lot of different fields kind of draw from our own life experiences. And, you know, I grew up as a kid, I was identified as ADHD when I was in fifth grade, and I was also in a gifted program. But that really was very confusing for me and for my parents and for my teachers. So when I went into the field of education, I knew that I wanted to make my classroom and the experiences for my students, something that was different from what I had experienced. And you know, so that led me to get a Masters in gifted Ed and I taught in the gifted education classroom at the elementary and middle school levels for several years. But what I knew was that those kids who were twice exceptional, were really still not getting the support that they needed. So I went back and got a second Master’s in Counseling and family therapy, which has led me to opening my mental health practice where I work with kids and their families who are neurodivergent and specialized with with gifted and twice exceptional kids, but not exclusively, so because neurodiversity is such a broad range. have needs. And that’s kind of where I am now, in addition to being a parent to three kids, two of whom are also neurodivergent, and one who’s just in first grade, but we’re, we’re starting to see some more of those signs that are a little more evident.

Debbie Reber  05:18

Yeah, and I will say that Tilt Parenting isn’t exclusively for parents of twice exceptional kids, although there are a lot of parents and caregivers supporting those kids who are listeners. And that was a term that was just not on my radar when my guy was little, even though he had multiple diagnoses and labels and was gifted. So that was clearly his profile. But I’m just wondering, in the time that you’ve been focused on this, how have you seen the awareness of twice exceptionality grow kind of in mainstream schools?

Emily Kircher-Morris  05:52

Yeah, you know, first of all, when I started my master’s in gifted education, this was in the mid 2000s, like 2004-ish. And twice exceptional was not even a term that we discussed, in my master’s level courses in education. Now, we did talk about kids who were gifted and had other diagnoses, specifically more like dyslexia and ADHD. But even the awareness of at the time, what was Asperger’s, but now is just under that umbrella of autism, that has just grown so much over the years. So once I was in my classroom teaching, I think I was probably closer to, I don’t know, 2010, even maybe when I first really started to understand that term, twice exceptional. And what that meant, and really started to see those kids. I was actually thinking about this the other day. And I don’t want to get too specific about things. But I think one of the things that actually really influenced that change was when the WISC four came out, and they started, they developed the general ability index, where they took out the working memory and processing speed, I think that was something that actually really influenced the ability for us to identify these twice exceptional kids who had these advanced cognitive abilities, but maybe the working memory and processing speed if they were, you know, autistic, or ADHD, were maybe pulling down those scores a little bit. And so I know that’s kind of maybe doesn’t. That means something to some people who are probably listening, but not a lot. But it is kind of interesting to think about how that evolution has occurred over the years. And even now, I think that schools are really just beginning to understand that twice exceptional kids exist and are in their classrooms.

Debbie Reber  07:45

Yeah, I mean, I think about when Asher was first undergoing, I think his first evaluation or neuropsych when he was maybe five and the giftedness piece of it wasn’t even part of the ADOS? How could you not consider all of these pieces together? Like these kids aren’t operating in a vacuum. And it’s fascinating to me, and I have seen such a change. I mean, that was now 12 years ago, but I feel like there has been an evolution in terms of the way that we’re evaluating kids.

Emily Kircher-Morris  08:20

Yeah. And I know that I have a lot of clients who are looking for a diagnosis. So I’m a mental health counselor. So while I do some basic assessments, and I do a lot of observational like, I just kind of know what I’m seeing a lot of times, but I don’t necessarily do a full differential diagnosis. In my practice. That’s not part of what’s within my scope of practice. But there are still very few professionals who understand how giftedness impacts those diagnoses and how you have to interpret those different scales. And it’s really frustrating when I have a kid who I know is twice exceptional. And I send them and try to get them to go get an evaluation and wherever they end up because of insurance or who knows whatever reasons. And sometimes they come back with a diagnosis totally off base, because they haven’t even done a cognitive assessment or they don’t understand how those cognitive assessments influence things. There’s a lot of research out there and Megan Foley, Nick pond up at the University of Iowa actually is doing some stuff with how kids don’t end up qualifying because their giftedness compensates, and they don’t meet diagnostic criteria. But that doesn’t mean that they don’t need those supports. And sometimes, I mean, labels, you can talk about labels all you want, but sometimes a label is necessary to get kids the support that they need. And if we’re missing kids, we’re missing that opportunity.

Debbie Reber  09:46

Exactly. Well, I actually do want to talk about labels with you. So I’m glad that you brought that up. I know that you are passionate about de-stigmatizing neurodiversity and labels that everyone is afraid of giving or afraid of having and I would love to talk about that a little bit more labels is something that comes up a lot. I get asked the question all the time, do I need this label? Should I tell my child, but will this mean? Could you share some of your thoughts on stigma and labels within the neurodiversity field?

Emily Kircher-Morris  10:19

You know, I think it’s such a personal journey for people. And there’s so much misunderstanding about different diagnoses. But I think where I’ve kind of landed with it, is recognizing that labels are a tool to both build self awareness and understanding and somebody who is neurodivergent. And to access supports, and to give the language for self advocacy. So I think that in an ideal utopian world, we wouldn’t need labels, that would be great. If we were just able to really understand that each individual is unique, and they have their own needs, and we can modify for those things. That would be wonderful. Unfortunately, that’s not the world that we live in. And so, you know, I think that what we do though, is we explain away things. And what I’ve seen, especially in the gifted population is we tend to go along this, we want to lean towards, oh, well, they’re gifted, they’re just kind of quirky, or this is this reason, or that reason, or whatever. And we missed the opportunity to recognize what those difficulties are. And so for these twice exceptional kids, they go through life, not understanding why they have this particular ability. They understand things, and they know things, but it’s not reflected in their schoolwork, or they’re always getting in trouble for discipline issues, or they are having a hard time making friends. And sometimes if we can say, Listen, this is what your profile is, you are you have these strengths. These things don’t come as naturally to you. This is part of how you are wired. This is part of neurodiversity, and you are neurodivergent and that makes you who you are. And that’s okay. And when we destigmatize that not only for the individual, but also just for society in general, we empower people to reach their potential in whatever way they feel is best for them.

Debbie Reber  12:22

I love the way you laid that out. You said it much more succinctly than I do when I’m asked that question. But I’m very much in alignment with you on the role of labels. And I appreciate that perspective. And I’m wondering, what does it mean, then to be neurodiversity affirming? So as parents who are supporting our kids in schools, or just in the world, in our neighborhoods, in our communities? What does that mean? And what does that look like?

Emily Kircher-Morris  12:51

Yeah, let me start from an educational standpoint. And, and from a mental health standpoint, you know, to be neurodiversity. Affirming means recognizing that the way that somebody interacts with the world is not inherently broken, or wrong. It’s just different. And we need to validate that, and we shouldn’t try to change people to fit what we consider normal. Because there, there is no normal, like when we talk about normal, we’re talking about an average of the normative population, but everybody is very different. But when we try to get an ADHD or to think themselves out of distraction, you know, we use like behavioral techniques to say, oh, no, you just have to think about it this way, without validating that their brain is wired differently, or when we try to convince an autistic kid that, that their struggles with social communication is just something that they need to think about differently, or they need to do differently, you know, without really understanding and valuing and validating why they communicate and relate to people the way that they do. We’re really causing a lot of trauma to them, because they start to doubt themselves. They don’t believe that they are capable. And we really need to make sure that we are meeting them where they are. And in order to be neurodiversity firming, when we meet them where they are, we are listening to them. And we are asking them, what are the things that are important to you? What are the things that you would like to learn to do better? And how can I support you with that? And let’s find the ways that either you can self advocate to ask for those supports, you know, what are the things that work for me? But you know, I think what it comes down to is we tend to lean towards As parents, educators, mental health professionals, whatever, we tend to lean heavily on behavioral interventions. Essentially what we’re doing is, you know, rewards and consequences. And we’re going to, you know, modify somebody’s behavior to fit into what we want them to be. When we do that, when we use behavioral interventions, to fix neurological struggles, struggles are related to neurologically wired differences. We’re not addressing the problem, and we’re causing more problems along the way, we are undermining that neurodiversity. And I think that really just causes a lot of damage. If we’re not being neurodiversity affirming, recognizing that those differences are valuable, and that we can work with people where they are.

Debbie Reber  15:46

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, as you’re talking, I just want to give a shout out to Mona Delahooke. If you haven’t listened to her book, or read her book, listen to my interview with her. It’s called Beyond behaviors, and very much talking about this idea of how we should not be trying to use behavioral interventions when this is how somebody is wired. So thank you for that. So you have been a very busy person, I brought you on this show, because I know you have a new book out about teaching twice exceptional kids, you also have another book coming out later this year about parenting twice exceptional kids. First of all, how have you done all of this? Like, how are you managing?

Emily Kircher-Morris  16:31

Well, first of all, the Teaching Twice-Exceptional Learners book, which was out from Free Spirit Publishing, and it was just released in August, it was actually supposed to have been published last year, and they pushed it back due to the pandemic. So it’s not like I wrote both of these books simultaneously, simultaneously, although they are coming out closely, together. And then, and so I wrote the one for teaching twice exceptional learners. And then I had this opportunity to write a book more geared for parents about how to collaborate with the schools. The way I kind of broke it down was i There’s a whole chapter about understanding neurodiversity, and what it means to be neurodiversity affirming as a family. And then there’s a second portion, which breaks down, like the five, five skills that I identify, that really are important for parents to help their neurodivergent kids with, and then also a portion about collaborating with the schools. And so that book will be out in January, actually, they’ve also, that publication date has also gotten pushed back a couple of times, but I think January 2022, is pretty firm at this point.

Debbie Reber  17:36

Listeners, I’ll have links to these in the show notes page. I’m not sure exactly when this episode is going to be released yet. But hopefully, you won’t have to wait too long for the Raising Twice-Exceptional Children book, the subtitle for that is A Handbook for Parents of Neurodivergent, Gifted Kids. Can you give us a little tip or two from that book? You know, you said you have these five skills that you identified? Can you give us a takeaway or two?

Emily Kircher-Morris  18:01

Sure, the five skills that I talked about specifically, you know, and I kind of just went through and talk through about what are the things that I work with the clients in my office with? What are the questions that kids have, that parents have? And so I settled on executive functioning as a skill, emotional regulation, positive communication, and I connected that both with social relationships. And also, you know, other situations, we’re just communicating as important self directed motivation. So kind of self regulation with motivation. And then and then self advocacy. And one of the things that I found as I was going through this was I actually, as I listed those you heard, I did, I listed self advocacy as the fifth item. But when I wrote the book, I actually put that as the first chapter as a skill based portion because self advocacy is so important for neurodivergent kids. And this is where, when they have a level of self awareness about what their needs are going back to what we’re talking about, like it’s not about changing behaviors, it’s about helping kids understand themselves so that they can navigate the world in a way that works for them. Like for me as an ADHD, or I understand what the accommodations are that work for me. And sometimes I have to ask people to modify things just as far as what time of day, like I just kind of know, like, at some point, I’m not going to have the focus to do certain tasks. So I advocate for those things. But if I didn’t learn how to self advocate, if I didn’t learn how to effectively recognize my needs, understand who to ask, understand how to ask, you know, I would really be struggling much more. And so I think self advocacy is something that we can really help our kids develop from a very young age. And it also is a great way to make sure that we’re not enabling them. Because when we put them in charge of, of recognizing their needs and asking for those needs, we can then scaffold that support in a way that is helping them to become more independent. And so I think that that’s one thing that sometimes we talk a lot about self advocacy, but I don’t think we emphasize it enough specifically as a skill that we can work on with our neurodivergent kids.

Debbie Reber  20:25

Yeah, and I agree with you, it is so important. And you know, there’s a lot of research that shows that a lot of differently wired students, when they go on to college, they, if they don’t have the skills to self advocate, they may or that self awareness, or that kind of positive thinking around their neural divergence, they may decline services, they may say, I think I can do this on my own. And that doesn’t always work out well for them. So I think this is really important. And I also agree wholeheartedly that supporting our kids and that self awareness piece, and really just knowing deeply who they are, on every level, is really one of the greatest gifts that we could give to them.

Emily Kircher-Morris  21:09

And I think one of the things that I’ve really learned, both through the writing of the book, but just working with my clients in the office, and also my own kids, as adults, we are so bad at assuming that kids will pick up on things automatically. And whether they’re neurodivergent or not, we forget that kids need to be explicitly taught skills, things that we don’t really remember learning. And perhaps there are some of us, maybe we didn’t pick it up along the way. But if we notice that our child is struggling with something, and we sit down, and we break it down with them step by step, it’s just really effective. I think we underestimate, you know, in psychology in my counseling practice, we call this intervention psychoeducation, right? We’re teaching them about the skill or whatever. But I’m like, Well, this is just called Teaching. This is just parenting. Like, there’s nothing fancy about it. But especially with bright kids, who often talk like little mini adults, and we forget that they’re seven, when they talk like they’re 12, or whatever it is, you know, we just have to sometimes take a step back and say, what is the actual skill that they need to build here? And how can we break that down for them to help them learn it?

Debbie Reber  22:24

Absolutely. And so you also mentioned emotional regulation and executive function. There are no two weak kids who are the same, but those tend to be two things that are common in struggling with those. And certainly, this is what I hear from so many people in this community. I know those are very different things. So I said executive function and emotional regulation, maybe pick one of those and share a strategy or where your thinking goes to in terms of how parents and caregivers can support kids around one of these areas.

Emily Kircher-Morris  22:57

It’s interesting that you mentioned that those are two things that really kind of neurodivergent kids all have some various difficulties with. And so as far as emotional regulation goes, I actually came up with a little acronym, as I’m writing this book, which is not always my strength. But every once in a while I come up with something and I’m like, ooh, that’s something I can use that would be useful, because I feel like that helps just everyone kind of remember it. And so I came up with what’s what I call the ICAN method for emotional regulation. So the acronym is I C A N. And basically, what it really talks about is, The I stands for investigate. So you have to have emotional literacy and awareness, to recognize what those emotions are in order to have emotional regulation. So that’s kind of the baseline there. The C is communicate. So that kind of relates to self advocacy, but it also means like, I just need to talk to somebody and let somebody know when I am either beginning to get dysregulated or when I am, you know, even if I’m already dysregulated you know, find a way to communicate so that I can get through that situation. As the situation goes forward. The A in ICAN is activate. So what are the coping skills that I can then activate? You know, once I’ve communicated what my needs are, what can I activate and then N is navigate getting through that situation and then kind of reevaluating to see what have I learned through that? You know, when I think emotional regulation is huge for all of us. I know when I am emotionally disregulated. As a parent, I struggle with parenting my own children, and emotional regulate, like there’s nobody in the world who is always emotionally regulated, especially in the world that we live in now. But are neurodivergent kids who often are in a situation that is really They’re not automatically getting through that, I feel like that is something that we can really help them with. And so just starting with that foundation, you know, investigating those emotions and figuring them out. And then being able to talk about them, knowing the coping skills, and then getting through it is something that we can really, it’s a skill that we can build, just like everything else.

Debbie Reber  25:20

I love your acronym, and well done because as someone who’s written a number of books, and always trying to come up with them, and failing miserably…

Emily Kircher-Morris  25:28

I know, it’s hard.

Debbie Reber  25:28

Yeah, you got a good one there. That’s awesome. I always think of Tina Paine Bryson and Dan Siegel as like the acronym royalty. I don’t know if you’ve read their books, the whole brainchild, I mean, they’re just rife with like the best possible acronyms. So when we were planning for this podcast, I asked if you had any questions that you wanted me to ask. And one of the things that you said was, I think it’s important to recognize and validate that parenting is tough, and that nobody even quote unquote, parenting experts has all the answers. So can you say more about that?

Emily Kircher-Morris  26:03

Yeah, let me just say this. So, you know, I practice in the community where I live. And I remember when I first started my counseling practice, I would feel like, if I was going to go to the store, I needed to have like, my makeup on. Or if I was with my kids, I really wanted to make sure that they were well behaved, because I was, I was thinking like, oh, my gosh, people are gonna see me with my children, and see me either emotionally disregulated, or them doing whatever it is that they are doing. And they’re gonna go really, this is the woman that is telling us to help our kids. And I was, I was really afraid of that. And I’m so glad that I’ve kind of evolved over the years, I don’t think it was, it was a pretty quick evolution, I think I got over that relatively quickly. But just normalizing that experience for people, it is hard to raise kids, and it is especially hard to raise kids who don’t don’t fit the same mold, as a lot of other families and kids, you know, experience. And what I tell my clients is that I do not have all the answers. But what I can do is I can sit down, and I can help you brainstorm, I can listen to what has worked and what hasn’t. And we can try to create some different ways to approach a problem. And that’s really what parenting is about is just problem solving on a day by day basis. And you don’t have to have all the answers and you’re going to mess up because goodness knows I do. I mean, when you live in a household with five people, all of whom are ADHD, and everyone has their own sensory needs. And a variety. It’s stressful sometimes, you know, and, and sometimes, you know, I just tell the kids, I’m like, Just go beyond the electronics, because I just can’t do anything, you know, with this anymore, right right now, but you just pick up and you go back the next day. And you know, it is hard, though. It’s really hard. And I think people expect it to be easy or feel like if it isn’t easy, they’re doing something wrong. And they’re not.

Debbie Reber  28:13

Yeah, and I think I just appreciate you sharing that. And obviously, you’re getting lots of practice on everything that you’re talking about, and that busy households. And I think it’s so helpful when I get to connect with people that I’ve admired and read their books for years and relied upon and then I’m like, Oh, they’re, they’re in this with us, or something just powerful and that vulnerability and sharing. So thank you for that. Before we wrap up. I wanted to just touch upon your book that just came out in August, teaching twice exceptional kids in today’s classrooms. And I’m just wondering, how has that been getting out into the world? Obviously, you know, we talked at the beginning about just a lack of awareness and understanding of who these kids are. Is this a book that you’re hoping to get into mainstream classrooms? Do you find that there is a window of opportunity right now to really empower teachers to better understand and support the kids that they may have in their classrooms?

Emily Kircher-Morris  29:14

Yeah, it’s, I think that one of my goals with writing that particular book was to bridge the gap between gifted education classrooms, general education classrooms, and special education classrooms, because twice exceptional learners were in all of those places. Research shows that if a kid is identified as gifted or a special education, rarely are they cross referred. And I think that twice exceptionality is more understood in the gifted ed world than in the general education classroom or the special education classroom. And it’s interesting because especially when you’re talking about sped and gifted Ed, they’ve really kind of developed as these islands where there’s not been a lot of collaboration, always, at least within the schools. But as we’re recognizing the diverse needs of our kids, we just need to have that communication. So I’ve been really excited and honored for the people, not just in the gifted education world who have been reaching out that people in the special education world who’ve been reaching out and are asking about, you know, how can we train our teachers, you know, on how to how to support these kids, the awareness of just because a child is, is in a, you know, has a fight before or has an IEP doesn’t mean that they can’t take honors or advanced placement courses, you know, those types of things, we were just broadening the options for them. And I do think people are ready to hear it. I’m I’m really, you know, I feel like the neurodiversity movement has just, it’s growing, but it’s in, it’s exciting to see those opportunities for kids open up.

Debbie Reber  30:55

I love your optimism, and I would, I’m right there with you. Sometimes I just wonder if it’s the people I’m hanging out with, or the conversations I’m having regularly. But I do see just more overall awareness, I think that perhaps that’s one of the gifts, if you will of COVID is just increased awareness of different ways of learning and that more kids may be differently wired than people even knew. And that there are different ways to learn. And yeah, and just different ways to kind of show their knowledge of things like I just feel like the world is opening up in that way. I hope that that is something that we can carry with us as we go back into this school year, and whatever kind of the future of education looks like. And you’re just making such a contribution with your podcasts and your books, and you have a lot of momentum. And I just want to say thank you. I appreciate what you do in the world and really glad that you’re a voice out there in this movement.

Emily Kircher-Morris  31:52

Oh, well, Debbie. Thank you. You’ve been leading the way.

Debbie Reber  31:55

Thank you. Well, before we say goodbye, any last thoughts? And also please let listeners know all the different places they can find you on the interwebs on social media.

Emily Kircher-Morris  32:08

Yeah, you can find me on my podcast, which is the neurodiversity podcast. And that website is neurodiversitypodcast.com or you can find it wherever. I do spend way too much time probably on Twitter. So my Twitter handle is at @emilykm_lpc. So that’s like licensed professional counselor. And you can find me all the places you know, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook, whatever. For everyone out there who is navigating this world. I guess my my final thought is just, you know, keep with it. You’re just by being here. Now listening to this, you are on the right track. And so that’s all you can do is just one one step, you know at a time.

Debbie Reber  32:54

That’s a wonderful note to end this conversation on. Thank you. Thank you for those words. Thank you for everything you shared with us today. And yeah, good luck with the new book launch. We’ll be following that and I will absolutely share it among the community. And yeah, thanks so much for everything you shared today.

Emily Kircher-Morris  33:11

No, thank you so much for the chance to be here, Debbie.

Debbie Reber  33:15

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