Angela Santomero on How Children Can Grow SEL Skills Through Preschool TV

Angela Santomero  00:00

At the end of a 22 minute piece, we know that it’s really hitting kids. And then we started realizing that it was also hitting children on the spectrum that are now able to articulate their feelings and are able to do things that they might not have been able to do before.

Debbie Reber  00:21

Welcome to the Tilt Parenting podcast, a podcast featuring interviews and conversations aimed at inspiring, informing and supporting parents raising differently wired kids. I’m your host Debbie Reber and today’s episode features a conversation with children’s TV show creator and writer Angeles Santomero. I first met Angela back in 1998, when I got a job working with the hit preschool show Blue’s Clues where Angela was one of the show’s co creators. Since then, Angela has gone on to create many more successful educational programs for children, helping preschoolers learn not only school readiness and problem solving, but social and emotional skills, skills that children who are differently wired often need more support in developing. In today’s episode, Angela talks about the potential for educational media in kids’ lives and shares her passion for the power of kids TV as a tool to support the social and emotional development of both typical and atypical kids. There is so much ongoing debate over TV and other screen time for our children. I hope you find this conversation insightful and that it gives you food for thought as you go about making screentime choices for your own kids. To learn more about Tilt, the revolution for parents raising a typical kids, visit www.tiltparenting.com 

Debbie Reber  01:39

Hey everybody, Debbie Reber here on the Tilt Parenting podcast and I’m here today with the Emmy nominated children’s TV creator and writer Angela Santomero. Angela created the preschool phenomenon Blue’s Clues for Nickelodeon as well as Super Why and Daniel Tiger’s Neighborhood for PBS and Creative Galaxy and Wishinpoof for Amazon. Angela’s also a best selling author, and the host of The Parents Show with Angela Santomero on PBS. Welcome to the show, Angela, thanks so much for coming on.

Angela Santomero  02:08

Thank you so much for having me.

Debbie Reber  02:10

I wanted to share a little background for listeners. So just to keep it real, you and I have been friends for a long time now as I worked on Blue’s Clues back in the day, which was a long time ago, I’m starting to realize now since then you and I have gotten to collaborate together on some really cool projects. And I just want to say personally, it’s been really fantastic to watch your, you know, your journey, as a kid show creator over the years and just see you continually bring your passion for empowering kids to TV in a way that I think has truly transformed the landscape for educational TV.

Angela Santomero  02:46

Thank you so much. I mean, I think that you and I’ve always said this, like when we met there was just this chemistry in terms of what we wanted to do out in the world and better ourselves and what we’re doing for kids. And so obviously, I’m also a huge supporter of yours since the beginning and also on this new endeavor, which I think is so needed, and I’m so happy to support it. 

Debbie Reber  03:07

Thank you. That means a lot. I appreciate that. So I wanted to just talk before we kind of get into the meat of our conversation. I’m really just kind of curious if you could share with us where this passion that you have around the work you’re doing, where that stems from. So I obviously know you’re the mom of two very cool daughters, who are now well past the preschool years. But you know, you were doing this work before you had children. So I’m kind of, you know, Could you just tell us a little bit about what it was about the blend of media and kids that really inspired you to go down this path?

Angela Santomero  03:41

You know, I always thought that I might be a teacher, I was a preschool teacher when I was in the classroom in college, and I was always around kids, I was that babysitter who had you know, had to keep a grid of, you know, clients that I had, because I was constantly babysitting. And then my little brother was born when I was 14. And so I really got to watch him grow. And so I talk a lot about how he sparked my interest in kids and child development. And then how being a crazy fan of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood as a preschooler also made me so interested in what it would be like to teach through media, the way that I believe that Fred Rogers did. So that’s kind of the way that the journey started for me.

Debbie Reber  04:24

So I just have to ask, what is a crazy fan of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood look like in action?

Angela Santomero  04:30

Well, you know, I was that four year old who and and this is of course, my mom tells the story that I could not get any closer to the TV when he was when the show was on. And I would talk to talk back to Mr. Rogers, talk to the TV and then also, you know, as I got older in eighth grade, they asked us to write an essay on a mentor of ours and I chose Fred Rogers, and I studied and looked up what he did and realized he had a master’s in developmental psychology and It just had all of these things that were really interesting to me. And so anyway, so it kind of started from there and continued to grow.

Debbie Reber  05:06

That’s very cool. I didn’t hear I didn’t know about the report in eighth grade, I’m not sure that that might have been the hippest choice, but I love that you.

Angela Santomero  05:16

And then of course, when I met Fred, and I was able to tell him that that awesome game, you know, I had a lot of, I got a lot of accolades from him because of that, I think.

Debbie Reber  05:24

That’s awesome. Well, it seems, you know, just looking at my Facebook feed where, you know, I spent a lot of time on Facebook, it seems like just about every day, at least one article goes by in my newsfeed where the merits of screen time are being discussed, you know, is it good? Is it bad? How little? How much? What are the benefits? What are the risks, but when it comes to educational programming, like the shows you’ve created, there’s clear evidence that children can learn, not only, you know, school, right readiness skills, and things like pre literacy, but also all kinds of social and emotional lessons as well. Right? I mean, there’s, there’s evidence to kind of back that up.

Angela Santomero  06:03

Oh, yes. Um, Deb Linebarger, at the University of Pennsylvania cites, and when she was at the University of Pennsylvania, and continues today, she has cited tons of research with her group about the merits of screen time. And obviously, it’s choosing the right programs, and that if you creating with an intent to teach, and that you have that background, we’re seeing lots of reports that show that kids are actually learning and then we do our own formative research, whenever we’re testing something new to really see how kids across the board, both in low income and regular income families are, what they’re doing with our content and the questions that they’re asking about our content, and then how it’s impacting their learning. And again, that’s formative. That’s what we see just in order to better what we do. And then of course, we’re backing that up with Dan Anderson and the University of Pennsylvania Annenberg folks and everybody who’s doing this research, starting way back when in Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers Neighborhood and beyond, about literally the power and the influence that media can have on kids.

Debbie Reber  07:06

Interesting. So I was going to ask how you make sure your show last your shows kind of land with kids in the right way and make sure that the viewers are actually making those, you know, intellectual and social and emotional connections you want them to so it sounds like it. The key there is research. And maybe you could just, you know, from having worked at Blue’s Clues and knowing I know a bit about your process, but maybe you could just share for listeners a summary of what that research looks like.

Angela Santomero  07:33

So yes, so we have a formative research team. And most of them come from teachers college, Columbia University, where we’ve all studied the effects of media on kids and understanding how it affects their learning. So we know, when you go to the program at Teachers College, it’s all about education and child development, and then how it crosses through media in terms of what we can do using instructional technology and media. So like using the power of media to inform what we do. So we have that background. And then what we’ll do is we’ll take, we’ll literally take a second draft of a script in a protocol format, so that each researcher will sit on the floor with kids and say the script in the exact same way, and read the script in this exact same way. And then like in for Blue’s Clues, we’ll play the games that you’ll play on the show. And we’ll record what’s going on with the kids will observe what they’re saying. Whether they’re interested, whether they’re getting the concepts that we literally want to set out, we have an intent to teach. So even though it would be after one program, we want to know that kids are taking away a strategy for Daniel Tiger’s Neighborhood, or really cognitive learning skills from Blue’s Clues. And so we want to look at that. And then we’re constantly going back in, especially in a development process. So that we know that there’s a difference sitting on the floor with kids, when we’re reading this, the script and playing out these games, then when it’s actually on television when it’s on a screen. And so we’ll test it at different stages when it’s on a screen as well to just make sure that we’re maximizing the learning benefits of the program.

Debbie Reber  09:04

Wow, that is very cool. Every time I hear it, I’m always kind of wowed by the lengths that you go to, to kind of make sure at every step along the way that it is going to really resonate and have the impact that you’re hoping it will.

Angela Santomero  09:19

Yeah, and then in the meetings that we have afterwards are kind of, you know, they’re really it really is. I was gonna say argumentative, but there’s like this intense love and vision for what we want to put out to kids. And so we’ll spend I mean, the researchers spend so much time in the groups and then debriefing about what’s going on. And then we’ll sit down with the executive producers and the writers and with the research team and talk about what it is that we can do to make sure that the scripts are better, that we continue to you know, really kind of push the limits of what kids can do and what they need to know and how they need to see it all the way through the production process. And so in a lot of ways I make my job harder for myself because I You know, I get consultant feedback, I get feedback from, you know, any anybody that’s in that particular area of interest that we’re writing about as well as kids and our research all the way through? So it’s really an engaging, interesting and sometimes really difficult process.

Debbie Reber  10:15

Yeah, it’s kind of like, you know, too many cooks in the kitchen. But in this case, you want all of those cooks. But it’s a lot of work, sounds like.

Angela Santomero  10:23

Yeah, and we want to know what everybody is thinking. And then I have to make that call, right? And always who wins? The kids are the ones that win right, what we do right by the kids, that’s literally the first place that we go in terms of any deciding vote or what it is that we need to do to move things forward. 

Debbie Reber  10:39

Right. Well, I wanted to switch gears. One of the things when we talked about doing this interview together, I knew that I wanted to bring up this particular article from the New York Times from last summer, because I remember when it came out, it really struck me and was also kind of widely shared in social media. So last summer, there was this great essay in the New York Times, The Motherlode section, which actually, I think a few weeks ago changed its name to Well Family. But this was a Motherlode, I think from July of 2015. It was written by the mother of a five year old autistic boy. And the writer Rasha Madkour opened the piece by saying, “We spent 1000s of dollars on therapies, countless hours at trial and error, playdates, in spite of all that, I know just where the credit lies for my high functioning autistic son’s newfound ability to connect with others, Daniel Tiger. That you know, one of the shows you created. So can you maybe just tell us what that essay was about? 

Angela Santomero  11:37

Yeah, that always, that always gets me you know, I don’t care how many Emmy nominations there are out there. But those are the kinds of letters that we get that really make it worthwhile what we do every day, we, you know, what we’ve seen in the formative researches on the social emotional side is that when we’re giving these strategies that we carefully write, and tweak and you know, the composer’s Voodoo highway are amazing it the lyrics and putting everything together with us, we’re seeing how sticky it is. And there’s so many reasons for why that is like, we’re really, it’s really important to us that we took Fred’s curriculum and his legacy and moved it forward, right. And so what he’s all about is the social emotional learning of a child. So when we talk about sharing, it’s about from the point of view of the child, it’s that you can have a turn, but then I get it back. So it’s again from, you know, it’s something different when you’re telling your child to share, and we can talk about that for hours, too, in terms of what that really means. And going into that. But this idea that we drilled it down to this strategy that says to the child, it’s okay, like, you’ll be able to get it back. And then what we do is we have just in a nutshell, we have Daniel Tiger talking directly to that home viewer, right? So you have this immediate bonding with this character, we have a situation that’s very visual, and very emotional and very real, like a sharing situation, for instance. And then we use this strategy, we watch Daniel struggle with how we watch it work. And we do it a couple of times in the course of an 11 minute episode. And then we expand it in a song to show other experiences other generalizable experiences that you can use the same strategy for. And then we repeat the same curriculum in another 11 minute story with a completely different story. And so at the end of a 22 minute piece, we know that it’s really hitting kids. And then we started realizing that it was also hitting children on the spectrum that are now able to articulate their feelings and are able to do things that they might not have been able to do before. That’s amazing.

Debbie Reber  13:41

You know, just listening to you recap how the approach to use within an episode or within 22 minutes, you know, so many of it, so many of those pieces really do resonate in terms of things that we do with Asher and things that I’ve learned over the years that help these kids kind of get things on a social emotional level that some of their peers are more naturally picking up, that acknowledging the emotion is been huge for us. So just kind of, you know, think doing that thinking out loud. And talking about the emotion acknowledging and empathizing it and then the role playing piece too. I mean, that’s another big strategy that we’ve used a lot is taking somebody else’s perspective. And then of course, the repetition piece, so that doesn’t surprise me that is really landing for kids on the spectrum. Our kids who are differently wired are connecting with that. But, you know, when you created the show, and really all of your shows, did you have any sense that they had this potential to support differently wired kids in this way?

Angela Santomero  14:45

You know, we know it wasn’t something that we set out to do. But we’re so about the child and I do believe that, you know, there’s so many similarities when you’re looking at the develop Men have childhood that it doesn’t surprise me either that it’s reaching because we want the what we’re teaching to be so resonant we make it really visual we make it really repetitive we make sure that it’s really emotional when we’re trying to solve a problem because we know from a story perspective that that’s what’s going to have children engaged. So you know, it’s it’s, it’s not a surprise to me that all children everywhere are getting something from it. It’s just, it’s just overwhelming when you realize that the techniques that we’re using and that we’re that we’re showing on the show is resonating that went in. That’s just a strong way, right? And a piece of that too. For me anyway, is this interactivity, right? So we called it interactivity before you know, that was even a buzzword with Blue’s Clues in terms of leaving a pause. And so one of the things that I’ve been exploring in some of my work is this pause and what that really looks like. And it’s not just in the way that we do it for blue, the way that we did it for Blue’s Clues, which is kind of a catchphrase now for all of this, where’s the red circle that like those kinds of drill, it’s not it wasn’t drilling school, and we were doing it, but that kind of play, really what it’s about. For me, anyway, it’s bonding with that home viewer and giving kids a chance to pause and to relate and to reflect and to be part of the experience. And that is also I think, a really big key on why Daniel is resonating with kids as well.

Debbie Reber  16:27

Hmm. Well, I’m also just thinking, you know, when Asher was younger, and not that this isn’t an issue anymore, but he he has opinions about lots of things and he likes to share them so you know, and I’m, I’m sure he’s not alone in that so that pause also giving kids a chance to, to blurt out their answer to kind of, you know, let people know or let the viewer know or let the character know that they know the answer, they have a perspective they have a point of view on it. So it I really love that that piece of it as well.

Angela Santomero  16:58

It will be to give them to me; it just enables them to have that voice and be part of the experience right be part of the conversation. And I love it when I see that I mean it’s just it’s it’s really empowering to me to see a three four year old and you know, with Daniel, it’s been getting older, as well depending on the need and the where the stories are sitting. But it’s so I love it. When I hear the brilliance that comes out of the kids mouth.

Debbie Reber  17:23

They have a lot to say. There’s one other quote from the essay I just wanted to share, I will post for listeners, I’ll post a link to it on the show notes as well because it’s definitely worth reading the whole thing. But another quote is “In a world full of unspoken social codes, the manual to which isn’t pre programmed and children like my son, Daniel Tiger is a chipper guide. In the specialists lingo, Daniel Tiger teaches social skills discreetly that is he explicitly spells them out. And the episodes feature multiple examples of those skills and use. And he’s a peer model. And children tend to learn better from other children then from adults. It’s one thing when your parents tell you to share it’s another when you hear from a gap cast of characters who are as familiar as friends.” And you know, that jumped out to me too, because I think that’s a really tricky spot for a lot of kids who are differently wired is that peer relationship, especially if they’re struggle with the social connection and social skills or social thinking, as we call it, they don’t often get a chance to practice in their day to day lives in preschool, because a lot of kids will be like, you know, they’ll just kind of move on if that kids behaving this way, I’m not really interested, I’ll move on to something else. And so this is kind of a safe way for them to see that model and get to practice it.

Angela Santomero  18:43

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that’s what’s also interesting about animation, that it’s it’s also a safe, it’s also a safe medium, right to be able to practice some of those skills. Because it’s a little you know, it’s a little bit different looking, it’s not necessarily as real as live action. And so we found that there’s some specialness to the idea of having some of these scenarios happen. And then the animated characters are bringing a different sense to it. I never really thought of it that way before, but that’s what I’m hearing more and more lately.

Debbie Reber  19:11

That makes total sense. You know, it also made me think of, we’ve used what are called social stories a lot over the years with Asher and, you know, those are usually stories or books that have a very strong social thinking component that we would read and then discuss together where we look at different characters thoughts and perspectives and emotions and kind of break them down. So I guess in many ways, shows like Daniel Tiger’s Neighborhood, they’re really just social stories, but in a different medium. Would that be accurate?

Angela Santomero  19:43

Definitely. And because of the time that we take to think about or have Daniel express his feelings and have Daniel talked to the home viewer a little bit about thinking through what he should do next, or, or thinking through what this strategy actually means before he does Another action I think that we’re definitely we definitely have that kind of guide when we when you if you look at a script of one of our shows.

Debbie Reber  20:07

I’m curious, you know, I’m sure that that piece in The New York Times wasn’t the first time you’ve gotten that feedback. Is it something that as you’re creating new episodes, are you thinking about when you’re looking at social issues or themes that you want episodes to be about? Are you incorporating or thinking about how this might support kids maybe who have ADHD, or different things going on who are kind of wired differently? Or do you just kind of know, kind of feel safe in your overall approach that you’re going to hit those children as well?

Angela Santomero  20:38

Oh, no, we definitely, because of the feedback, we took a closer look at some of the themes that we could tackle with Daniel and with the Fred Rogers company, as a great partner really, were able to come up with some themes like the feeling of being left out, like how to enter play, even though these characters are friends of each other. Like we wanted to create a scenario where, what would it be like to you know, if you’re a little bit nervous today about entering play? How do you do that? How do you start there? Or what happens when a friend says no to you, you know, things aren’t always so happy and chipper around here, like what else? What can we do that, you know, these are things that parents have asked us specifically for and we started to look into it. And also we’ve been playing with aggression, like what do we do? How do we show see in terms of promoting kindness and not promoting violence but how do you do that without modeling it because that’s another thing that we’re really cognizant of is that when we show something even though we’re saying it’s wrong, if you show it it’s going to have many more implications than if you just then if you don’t, so one of the things that we’re working on is is is a strategy where Daniel is about to hit about to throw something up he’s so frustrated that he’s about to be aggressive and when he stopped we stopped him like mom Tiger stops him teacher Harriet stops him and then he learns to stop himself it’s okay to be angry but it’s not okay to hurt and those are the kinds of things that you know I think they have they have implications I think with the kids on the spectrum but I also think for me anyway I’d like to think of it as grow also also growing this audience to be you know, to be much more kind and to and to hope with all of the bullying and gun violence that we have out there as you start to grow up if you start if you have these strategies and skills with you that you might have other choices.

Debbie Reber  22:26

Absolutely. You know, that is one thing I think about a lot that the things that I have worked really hard with with Asher over the years because he can be very intense especially when he was younger when things didn’t go his way his reactions were quite big and so we’ve spent a lot of time working with him on in the moment coping strategies on how to kind of diffuse that so the reaction isn’t as big and I often think you know, this is something that most adults don’t have the capability to do. And you know, I love that you’re kind of modeling that and showing it to preschoolers. I think yeah, it’s something everybody can benefit from.

Angela Santomero  23:06

Totally I mean we’re hearing also I love when I hear that parents are saying I’m learning. I had a dad email that’s dear or over Twitter talking about that they’re learning some things from the show as well which, which you know, is just lovely.

Debbie Reber  23:20

Yeah, that’s awesome. Well, so that that was something I wanted to ask you about, you know, How can parents I don’t know whether it’s co viewing or you know, How can parents kind of take this medium that that you’ve created and you know, the end kind of capitalize on the conversations are the opportunities that they bring up for kids? Like how can they then take it to the next level in their home?

Angela Santomero  23:43

I love this question because I think what I found is that the parents that are the most playful and relevant to their kids’ lives where they think it’s okay to talk about Daniel Tiger as if Daniel is a friend of their child’s or any, anything that they’re into, right? Anything that they’re reading any anything that they’re really excited about to using that character as a way in to their to the conversations that you want to have to model so for instance, the way that they talked about in the New York Times article is exactly what we tell parents is you know, if you’re a little bit more aware of some of these strategies where they’re your child is singing one of the strategies as they’re trying a new food, you know, like take it on and use it and keep and keep it going. And I think whenever you’re you’re, whether it’s you have time to co view or you just have time to play it out. You know, if your child is talking about a pretend character, take it on and take that experience and take that conversation to another level. And sometimes parents are a little bit weary of doing that, too. They’re worried about it. I don’t know if it’s more of a worry that these fantasy characters are real or not, it doesn’t matter. You know, it’s really just about something, the way that your child is expressing themselves. And then the more you can bring that into your everyday life, the more learning will continue to happen. You know, we do it as adults all the time. I’m constantly talking about the characters that I’m watching on my show. So I don’t really obviously I don’t see any problem with that. But I do see the benefits of putting it in putting anything that you want your child to be learning or doing in your own morals and values in the words that children can understand. And sometimes the shows can help you do that.

Debbie Reber  25:22

Yeah, I could see kind of just being on the playground and saying and seeing something happening. And what would Daniel Tiger do in this situation? What do you think he would do? Yeah, that makes total sense.

Angela Santomero  25:32

Yeah, exactly. Oh, and I’ve tried that with my um, well, she was 10 at the time, she’s now 12. But, and she looks at me, and she says, “don’t Daniel, Tiger me, mommy.” So they’re my field limits. And when you do that, exactly, as you know, of course, I have to use characters from her world, not necessarily from me.

Debbie Reber  25:50

It happens to all of us. Yeah, no, I love that. That’s definitely true. I mean, that’s a strategy we use a lot in our home. My son is very, you know, I always used to say, when he’s reading a book, it’s like watching a movie to him, that he’s very engaged in the fiction worlds that he participates in, whether it’s books or television, or movies. And we use that to our advantage all the time. And you know whether we’re co watching something with him, and we’ll pause it and have a conversation about it. And what do you think he’s thinking right now? What would you do in this situation? There’s so many ways to kind of extend the experience, and they’re usually pretty interested in it because it’s starting with something that they are focused on.

Angela Santomero  26:37

Yeah, we’ve had some of the best conversations about those kinds of things. You know, even I remember about Cinderella, and just literally how awful the stepsisters were. And we had this just constant dialogue about that which just helped with for us at the time, it was all the sibling rivalry stuff, right? It really just helped us color that conversation.

Debbie Reber  26:57

Well, listen, before we head out, are there any other tips or thoughts that you want to share kind of I don’t know, if you have some go to tips on how parents can tap into kids television to support their kids learning and social emotional development, any other strategies for us?

Angela Santomero  27:15

I would say that one of the thoughts that just came into my head was to be part of the conversation like on the Facebook pages that constantly asking for what it is that you’re looking for. creators, like me are always looking at our viewers and the parents who are watching the shows and what they’re looking for. And we listen, you know, and so there’s a lot that we take from that. So being part of an active in that community, I think, is also just helpful for us to kind of give back what it is that people are, are looking for, or needing and then you know, I think it’s websites like yours and people that are really kind of doing things that are that are pushing the limits, I think we’re you know, there’s a lot of view and do getting kids active and creating something, making something writing the ending to a story. Just kind of play based is what I talk about a lot in terms of the kinds of books and articles and activities that parents are, you know, that that we found the most helpful as we’re creating our shows, and that what we’re doing in our own print parenting community.

Debbie Reber  28:10

Yeah, very cool. I love that idea, too. That’s a great tip to just ask for what you want and be part of the conversation. That’s something I’m trying to get parents everywhere to do with every aspect of raising their kids: be more vocal about your experience and what you need, so we can get it. Very cool. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. This has been what I love talking to any chance I get but so fun to talk with you about all of this stuff. And before we go, where can people find out more about you and all of your many projects,

Angela Santomero  28:41

Angelesclues.com is something that I use to just try to update everybody on what’s going on. And then of course, all of the Facebook pages for each individual show for Daniel Tiger’s Neighborhood or Super Why, Creative Galaxy, or Wishinpoof which are both on Amazon.

Debbie Reber  28:58

Alright, that’s great. And then I’ll put the links to all of those shows and Angeles clues in the show notes for everyone listening so definitely check out her shows you’ve got three networks to choose from. So you should be able to find her shows and they’re all I’ve seen them all I’ve been a part of one of them and, and they’re all high quality great shows so thank you again, Angela, so much. It’s been great to talk with you today.

Angela Santomero  29:24

Thank you.

Debbie Reber  29:27

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the tilt parenting podcast. To learn more about Angela Santomero and all of her many projects and she’s got a lot going on believe me, visit her online at www.angelasclues.com I’ll include a link for Angela’s website as well as information on all of her TV shows in the show notes for this episode, which you’ll find at www.tiltparenting.com/session10. For more information on all of the podcast episodes, visit tiltparenting.com/podcasts. If you like this podcast we encourage you to subscribe over on iTunes as well as leave an honest review. subscriptions and reviews help us get more visibility so more parents can become aware of tilt. Lastly, for more information on tilt the revolution for parents raising differently wired kids and to sign up to be part of the community, visit www.tiltparenting.com