Dr. Megan Anna Neff on Self-Care for Autistic People

Debbie:

Well, hey there, Megan and welcome back to the podcast.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

It’s so good to be back with you. I’m looking forward to this conversation.

Debbie:

Yeah, me too. We talked about this book when you were last on my show. And it was yeah, I was like, Oh, we’ll have to have you back for that when it comes out. So here we are. And we’re going to be talking about your, your book, Self Care for Autistic People, for people who haven’t heard our previous conversation, and maybe aren’t familiar with your work beyond the bio that you know, your formal bio, could you just take a few minutes and introduce us to your work in the world?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

That’s right. Yeah, my work in the world, let’s see. So I’m a autistic ADHD, sometimes OCD psychologist and I’m so bad at the elevator speech. These are really hard for autistic people. And I make things. I make infographics, I write, I really am passionate about educating the world with the mental health world. I kind of have two dual passions. I’m passionate about educating the mental health world about non stereotypical neurodivergence and things that might get misdiagnosed as other things. And I’m passionate about educating neurodivergent people about wellness resources specifically with an eye on how do we adapt some of the things that we’re taught that we’re like, yeah, that doesn’t work for me. And so those are kind of my dual passions when it comes to education. Look, I did it. I did the elevator speech.

Debbie:

Yeah, you did it. Yes, that was very nice, succinct. It all made sense. And I just want to, even before we move forward, encourage listeners to check out your Instagram. And actually, just sign up for your resources, because you send out a great newsletter. I’m on your list. And the infographics that you put together are just so helpful. And I feel like you are just sharing information…the visual representation helps me.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

Thank you, thank you. I think in images and it’s the way I organize my own mind and I’m really happy that it seems to resonate with a lot of people and that’s really meaningful for me.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s awesome. Awesome. So, okay, so your book came out and it is called self care for autistic people. And right as we hit record, we were discussing self care, even just the way that that term can be problematic in some ways. So maybe let’s start there. Tell us why you were hesitant to kind of even tackle this book.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

Absolutely. I love that we’re starting with the complexity. Yeah, so the opportunity came to me, a publisher reached out and they wanted to write this book. And first of all, I loved it because I had just seen a book on self -care for ADHD people come out and I was like, we need one for autistic people. But I was also like, oh, but I’ve never loved that term self -care. And so I had to work through that in my own process of writing this book. I’ll share some of my critiques of what I think self about the term and then share what I think robust, thoughtful, interdependent self care can look like. I think my, if I were to boil it down to the kind of three critiques, self care at least in the States is often tied to consumerism, kind of consume this and you’ll feel better. And so I have some feels about that. Yes, I realize the irony of here I am promoting a book and critiquing self -care as consumeristic. And another area where I’ve had some kind of hesitancy around the term is how hyper -individualistic it can be. And I know that’s a topic that comes up a lot in the neurodivergent community is we often need to live interdependent lives. And in fact, I would suggest interdependence is a really good thing.

And so some of the shallow stories around self care can be very individualistic and miss that interdependence that I think true self care is also care of our planet and care of each other. And then the final critique I have is this kind of band aid approach of you, you create a life where you’re burning out. And then you do an hour of self care on the weekend as this idea of now I should recharge my battery. And there is, there’s often these like mechanical analogies we use, and then be okay to continue to live my grinding life. I shared all these thoughts in a newsletter recently and Sarah Wayland, author of Is This Autism, sent me a quote, I’m gonna botch it, but I loved it. It’s a quote from someone else, it was this idea of self care shouldn’t be about things like bubble baths and chocolates, it should be about creating a life that we don’t need to escape from.

And I love that robust way of thinking of self -care is about how we be with ourselves differently? How do we be in a relationship differently? How do we cultivate a life that we don’t need to constantly be escaping from? So I didn’t articulate it that well before writing the book, but these were the things I was wrestling with when the book is designed as like a hundred, a hundred, I think there’s like 130 different entries. I was wrestling with this. How am I thinking about self -care through a way of cultivating how a person can be with themself differently? That was a really long answer.

Debbie:

No, it was a great answer. It is really nuanced. There’s a from that blog post that you mentioned and listeners I’ll have a link in the show notes page for that. I pulled out a quote you said I view self care as a practice that not only focuses on our own well being but also includes the well being of our community. It’s a collective effort that intertwines the significance of nurturing others and our environment with the responsibility of meeting our own needs. And that was just such a lovely way and such a bigger way to think about self care. I never thought of it as something we’re doing for our community. Could you talk about that a little bit more?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

Yeah, I mean, I think this is something that, you know, indigenous cultures have always done really well. And then when, you know, kind of white Eurocentric people took over much of the world, we’ve just we’ve really botched this. And I’ve had the privilege of living in collectivistic cultures, immersively. And it’s such a, it’s interesting. It’s not something that you can be like, these are the traits of a collectivistic culture and now let’s embody them. It’s an energy that is felt, that is experienced. There’s the idea, I think it comes from the Buntu.

Now I’m anxious that I don’t have the citation on that. But it’s instead of, you know, in Western philosophy, it’s I think therefore I am. And for them, it’s we are therefore I am. And it’s such a different way of thinking about existence and being and self, selfhood. And so if the self is always considered as existing in relation, then of course self care is always going to happen in relation. And that fundamental philosophical difference in just how we conceptualize what it means to be a self is gonna be so pervasive in how we think about everything, especially self care, because the self is a different construct. Now I realize I’m getting kind of philosophical with it.

Debbie:

No, I love it. I mean, it’s fascinating. And I’m thinking that I’ve started going to this yoga class recently, I guess, as a form of self care, my therapist made me start going. She’s like, you know, no YouTube, you need to be in person and really restorative, because I’m really trying to support my nervous system. And at the end, each week, the yoga instructor Shana shout out to Shana’s she talks about you know, we talk about the collective energy that we’re putting out and how we’re supporting our community by gathering together in our practice. And I, for me, there’s something about that that really, every time she says that phrase, it makes me feel so just part of something bigger. So I do love that idea. And I again, you know, you said this right up front, it isn’t we think about it as like a bandaid or I often talk about filling our reserve tank and so like using those metaphors but it’s so much bigger than that and I think that’s something I’m glad that we’re starting with this in the conversation as well.

So I just want to share what I have as a definition of self care. And I’m wondering, I’m kind of wondering your thoughts on it. And if you have a way that you define it in terms of what it means beyond the kind of more philosophical definition that you just shared. So I, cause I have a chapter about self care in my book, differently wired. And I, too am trying to get out in front of it. Like, listen,

I’m not talking about going to the spa, like that’s not, you know, for everybody, most people to have the resources and that’s not what it’s about. But I describe self care as being something that is intentional and that it’s just for you. So I guess there’s that individualistic piece, but I think about it as something that I’m saying, I matter and I’m doing this because I know that it supports me. So I’m just, I’d love to hear your thoughts on that. And if you have a way of defining it.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

I love that. So it’s intentional. I really like that because it does take intentionality. And so here, let me, and actually, oh my gosh, this is so neurodivergent. Like I want to nuance self -care and then I want to nuance my nuance thought to self -care. Like I actually do think, so I do think self -care should be interdependent. Also, we know for a lot of neurodivergent people and for parents, okay, let’s start with like autistic ADHD neurodivergent people. A lot of us mask or have become perpetual people pleasers as a way of accommodating our social differences in a way of like, we want people to like us, so I’ll be really pleasing. So the idea of doing something just for us feels wrong, feels hard. So I actually think there also needs to be space for that. Or on the flip side parents if you are a parent of a disabled child doing something just for me, what? No, there’s no time for that. So I think we need to have these conversations about intention of like, interdependence and also it’s okay to take the space that you need. And for many of us, what we need is our nervous system needs some alone time, we do need something just for it. So we can go back and be connected in meaningful ways to our systems we’re part of. So those are my thoughts to that definition. I really like it. And I think a lot of us do need permission to do something just for us. No, I actually, I’ve had that critique, the critique of my critique in the back of my head. So I’m glad that came forward.

Debbie:

Yeah, thank you. Thanks. I didn’t mean to spring that on you, but yeah, it differs for autistic and ADHD people. All right, so let’s talk a little bit more. You just mentioned some of the, you know, considerations for autistic people, for instance, and taking self care who may be people pleasers, like just moving through the world differently is going to impact how they consider self care. So what other ways would you know, a neurodivergent person experience a relationship with self care differently than a neurotypical person?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

Yeah, so, I think, and you asked a moment ago about how I would define self care and I haven’t, I don’t actually have a distinct answer yet, but one thing I do believe and say often is that self care starts with self attunement, the ability to attune to ourself. If I don’t know moment to moment what I’m experiencing, like, oh, right now I’m having a reverse of response to this light or this is the emotional experience I’m having right now, then I don’t know what I need and then I don’t know how to care for myself. And I think this is a big piece of where self -care differs for a lot of us, or I would even say is a barrier to self -care, whether it’s due to interoception differences. So that’s that, the body awareness of what’s happening inside or alexithymia, which is difficulty identifying emotions or masking or people pleasing or dissociating from our body. We have so many barriers to that very first piece of self -attunement.

And I talk about this a bit in the book, but, and I forgive the dualism. I, for the most part, love my mind, but my body is a very hard place to occupy. And so there’s so much dissociation from it when your body is a place of too muchness that like working with that first piece, which often involves working with sensory regulation and cultivating sensory safety and nervous system safety, like, these are such foundational blocks for self -care that because as a society we don’t yet have a lens to think through sensory safety or nervous, with nervous system that’s catching on, this step often gets missed for us. And then if we’re trying to access self -care kind of higher on the hierarchy, we’re like, wait, this practice or strategy does not work for me. And we might even start to have some shame around like, why did I do these things my therapist is telling me to do and it doesn’t help and that means I’m broken because it’s not working. So those are some of the ways I see it being different for us.

Debbie:

Yeah wrote, you’re always worthy of love and care, recognizing and tending to your sensory needs is one way that you can show your body and mind that affection. And when I read that, that jumped out at me for where people should start if they don’t believe right that they’re worthy of love and care, whether that’s because of depression or PTSD, or we know that so many neurodivergent folks struggle with things like gender dysphoria and body dysmorphia and so, yeah, how do you encourage people to kind of navigate that if they are starting from that place of like, I don’t deserve this, I’m not worthy of this.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

I mean, I think first, you’ve got to identify the block like that belief of I’m not I’m not worthy of self care, like you’ve got to work on that first. There’s a new term, it’s new to me. But it’s, it’s been in the psychology literature. The idea of traumatic invalidation, and how neurodivergent people experience this at very high levels. And even just think about this, like for thousands of reasons we do, but even just thinking about this sensory, right? Like I remember when my child was young, that loud is noisy, right? Like that might be something she would have said. And I’m sure, I hate this, but I’m sure It’s not too loud or it’s, I can barely hear it or like, this hurts or this is spicy. Oh, it’s not too spicy, right? There’s so much of our sensory experience even that we’re having an experience and the people around us are saying, oh, no, it’s not too bright. It’s not too loud. It’s not too X, Y, Z. So that chronic invalidation and that was just sensory. We could talk about social, we could talk about these other things. That often has to be addressed and dealt with before getting to some of the deeper things of addressing this. I also want to say that these ideas are not my own. I have learned so much from people in my community, one of them being Sammy Osonia, who is a therapist, and this is who she brought in this idea in one of our clinical calls about traumatic invalidation and how often before even addressing things like the PTSD, you have to really target this piece of it because it’s so core to our identity. So just want to make sure and give a shout out to where this idea came from.

Debbie:

Yeah, thank you for that. Yeah, I haven’t heard of that concept before. But of course, it makes so much sense. And I imagine that’s just an experience so many neurodivergent people have from a very young age. And also perhaps in therapeutic relationships. And we’ll talk about that in another conversation, because I know we are going to be talking about therapy and neurodivergence. So I’m wondering, in terms of how you hope people come to your book, like, you know, as an invitation to engage with with your book, what, how do you hope to kind of bring them into, to engaging with it and relating with it and and really tapping into all the there’s so many resources in there and ideas that you’re sharing.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah. Well, I hope that they, first of all, wherever they are in their journey of the, do I deserve this, I hope that it does have that invitation of like you do deserve self care, your body deserves care. And even if you have been shamed for your needs, these are worthy, they’re worthy of your attention. You deserve to take them seriously. So I hope that for people. I want it to be a book that holds complexity, and I hope it helps people hold complexity of there’s so much about your autistic identity to celebrate and lean into, and there’s your interests and your passions and your values, and that that’s worthy of celebrating. And also, it’s OK to grieve. There’s hard things about being autistic, and it doesn’t mean you aren’t affirming or loving yourself to grieve your limits or to name that it’s hard. So I hope it’s a place that people can lean into some complexity. And then I that people get to learn ways of being with themselves differently, being with themselves more gently and in a way that again is more attuned and is not so many of us have just this harsh harsh inner critic and I think learning how to deconstruct that and find a way to be with ourselves with gentleness I think that’s really a huge hope I have for people.

Debbie:

Yeah, that’s great. So I want to actually get into the book. So as you were just describing how you hope people engage with it, I have pages of notes and questions here. And the last thing that I wrote that kind of summed up my experience reading it, was your book feels like so much more than a self-care book. Not that there’s anything wrong with just a book about self -care, but as an allistic person, I read your book as kind of like a guide to deeply understanding yourself and identifying, supporting and meeting your needs so that you can experience a more self actualized life. So, you know, it’s not I think when people hear, as we talked in the beginning here, this idea of self care, it’s like, okay, you know, take these breaths, go for a walk, listen to that, you know, like here, and it’s that’s not what your book is. So can you talk about how you organize the book and talk about when you were starting the writing process, how were you thinking you wanted to approach this whole concept of self care?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

First of all, I love your elevator speech in my book and I’d love to steal that from you. It’s so much better than anything I’ve come up with. I just ramble when I try to talk about it. So thank you for that. And that feels really kind. And I really love, you know, when you’re so close to something, it’s hard to know what people’s experience of it. And I really love that that’s your takeaway. As far as my approach, it is broken into, so it’s self -care and then it’s broken into different kinds of buckets. So like social self-care, physical, emotional, sensory, professional. And then within that, there’s also even subcategories. And that was actually something I asked the editor for. I was like, I think autistic brains need more context. Can we have like subcategories for each chapter? But my approach is very educational. So I think that makes sense that you’re like, oh, this actually feels like a guide to understanding yourself. For me, when I was training as a psychologist, the things that always helped me in regards to self care or learning to be with myself differently was when I could finally grasp some sort of educational content that helped me understand what was happening. So that’s always been my approach as a therapist, as a writer is like, let me explain to you what your nervous system is doing. And I think that is actually a pretty autistic approach to self care. Like, let me lead with the data and the information and the science. And then also say and like, and so what? So I forget that that’s an autistic approach, but I think that is woven throughout the book. And that is what makes it autistic is how much it leans on. Let me first unpack this idea and then give you an idea of something you can do because of that.

Debbie:

And in terms of your writing process, you know, again, because it is so comprehensive, I was imagining because I’m a writer and so I’m always trying to get inside the writer’s brain. How did they organize this? How did you know? I imagine that there were some themes or some sections that were very personally relevant to your experience and others not so much, maybe. I don’t know. So I’m just wondering if there were any areas or strategies that maybe weren’t on your radar before you started writing this book, like where your own learning came into this process.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

Um, probably it’s interesting. Okay. I’m laughing at this because I feel like I talked about this a bit on my podcast. Um, and just in general, social self care was the hardest chapter to write. Um, and I think, why am I laughing? That’s interesting. I think, so my, one of the measurements when you get an autism assessment, um, that we look at social motivation and there’s, there’s debate about that word, but mine is very low. So that was the chapter that stretched me the most in that I’m very okay with low social contact. I’m also not, I’ve been married for 15 years, so like I’m not navigating dating right now. And there are some entries around dating and I was just like, I’m really glad I’m not navigating that right now. So that was the chapter where I stretched myself the most in the sense of like everything else in the book. It feels like, yeah, I’ve struggled through this and I’ve figured out some things to work with it. So everything else felt pretty personal, but the social one was the hardest in that way and where I leaned into my own learning quite a bit.

Debbie:

And how did you go about researching, you know, what was your process like?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

Um, for that, it was a lot of that. That’s where I’m really thankful for community. I think a lot of kind of leaning in on what I’ve learned from the autistic community. Um, I would say, and just listen, like listening to my clients, listening to my community, listening to people of like, what are they experiencing if, if they are navigating dating, if they are, um, if they’re in a situation where they want friends, and they’re struggling to make friends. What are the things they’re saying they need and they want? And so yeah, listening, I would say was my main strategy and looking for themes.

Debbie:

Yeah, okay. Yeah. The first self care bucket you talk about is physical self care. So you talk about movement, some of your sub buckets, movement and regulation, sleep, and then body care and hygiene. And body care and hygiene, one of the questions that popped up thinking, I think that people in my community would want to know, because a lot of us are raising kids who have more of a PDA profile. And sometimes that personal hygiene and that self care can feel like a demand. And especially with a younger person who may not feel motivated in the same way that an older, you know, an adult might. So I’m just wondering if you could talk about the relationship between maybe self care in general and someone who is more demand avoidant.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

Wow, that’s a big question. Okay, we need a whole podcast on that. So I mean, again, so much with PDA, preserving the autonomy. And so this is a huge struggle. It’s something that we’re navigating in our family as well. One thing, and different families will have different feelings about this. This personally is where we landed with our family and parenting, and it has worked well. So I’ll just share, yeah, I don’t feel comfortable being like, this is what you should do for LPDA. I’ll share what has worked for us. Being like, doing something that’s good for your body is important. Here’s four things you can choose from. You can do 20 minutes on the treadmill or do a walk. And then having a few, you could go to OT. There’s like four or five options. So there is a like, OK, we need to do something here. That’s important. And here’s your options. Keeping the autonomy through creating options. That’s been one approach. That’s not gonna work for every PDA child, but that has been one of our work around the demand avoidance because it’s a, and I do that with myself. I have a ton of demand avoidance. I’ll be like, okay, there’s this thing. We know this has got, and we’re gonna do it. Here are your options. How do you wanna mark off this thing for today?

Debbie:

Mm hmm. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Yeah, sorry, I didn’t mean to take this in a whole other direction. But that definitely popped up as I read this.That ultimately, in order to benefit from your book, going back to what we talked about in the beginning, the reader has to feel that they matter and that they are worth it, that they are worth taking this time and feeling better. Yeah.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

Okay, now that I have had a second, I’m actually having more thoughts. So with PDA, another thing we know is back to interdependence. That’s really important, and co -regulation. So self-care things that are hard, especially if the parent is able to be in a regulated nervous system, body doubling, body doubling some of those tasks. And then the one, this also came from some wisdom of someone in my community, Claire. She’s a functional medicine provider. She introduced me to the Ferber. I don’t know if you’re familiar, but it’s like a little animal that you co-regulate it, but it also helps you co-regulate. And she mentioned how that’s been useful in the use of ARFID with kids. And so I think that could also, having some of those co -regulation strategies while pairing that with some of the self -care practices that are harder. But then, of course, and this is where I go in the chapter, it is a demand. And if there’s any sensory aversion to it, that’s a huge lift. So the first step is, what are the sensory barriers? Does the kid have dyspraxia? OK, let’s do a stand-up toothpaste. Is it the taste? Is it like, and there’s a lot of new devices on the market now. So first identifying the sensory barriers and then finding some kind of co -regulation, something to pair with the activity.

Debbie:

Yeah, thank you. That’s great. And just so I’m clear, body doubling is that kind of parallel playing for lack of a better word, like doing it next to your child.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

Yeah, so, and then again, like for me, I’m like, I don’t think my child would want to see me brushing my teeth, like, because that would be a sensory experience. But yeah, it’s doing the same thing together. And it’s something that is really helpful for ADHDers, but it’s also, I think it can be helpful from a regulation standpoint.

Debbie:

Yeah. Okay, cool. Thank you. I just want to talk about mental self care, which is another section that you have in the book. And the first thing you talk about is addressing internalized ableism. And that jumped out at me. That’s one of the things we explore a lot, you know, in my parenting community. So can you talk about why that’s so important and what that might look like?

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

Yeah, absolutely. And just to kind of situate it, so internalized ableism, people are perhaps more familiar with the concept of like internalized homophobia or internalized racism, but the idea of when we’ve taken in the beliefs about an identity we have and we’ve internalized it. So for internalized ableism, there’s so much that we can’t do until we’ve addressed things like having boundaries with other people or setting realistic expectations for ourselves. Like any time that we have that, like I should be able to do this. That’s internalized ableism. And actually, I see this a lot with teens and college students where it’s really hard to accept the accommodation that they’ve qualified for. And there’s a few reasons for that. They might not want to stand out, which makes so much sense. But the other one is there’s still a bit of internalized ableism. I shouldn’t need this. And so until we’ve really addressed that, both in regards to like that’s just as terrible things for our self worth and self identity and mental health, but also from a very pragmatic standpoint of what we’re able to access, it limits us quite a bit when we haven’t worked through that yet.

Debbie:

Mm hmm. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for that. And I want to touch on one other chapter and then we’ll wrap up. We can’t go into all everything because there’s so much in here. But I loved that you had a section on our chapter on professional self care self care in the workplace, you know, there were so many powerful tips. And again, it’s not something that you would think, oh, these are self care strategies, but it’s really how do you navigate being a neurodivergent person in a workplace that wasn’t set up to support how you experience the world. So anything you want to share about that section that you think is really important for listeners to keep in mind.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

The two that jump out at me are around self -disclosure and around documentation. So self -disclosure being, you know, I think folks don’t always realize that self -disclosure doesn’t have to be all or nothing, that there are partial self -disclosures. Because this question comes up a lot of, should I self -disclose both to my HR or my employer, but also my co -workers? And so I think just thinking through the pros and the cons of self -disclosure, thinking through what are some partial self -disclosures like, oh, I’m actually, I can’t sit here because I have sensory sensitivities, right? That would be a partial self -disclosure. And coming up with those in advance, I think can really be helpful.

And then the doc, this sounds a little bit cynical maybe, but the document, I have document everything in there. Especially autistic people, I just think we get misperceived, especially because of our relationship to hierarchy as well as, I mean, so many reasons. And then, you know, with the double empathy problem of like, we’re both misunderstanding each other, misunderstandings do happen in the workplace. And I, I learned this the hard way this, this one did come from personal experience of like, just being really honest and realizing, like, being really honest in my communication, too much so, and also realizing like systems are designed to protect themselves and that documenting conversations, documenting if there’s conflict becomes really important. It kind of is a way to protect yourself. So I guess I’m thinking a lot about protection and self-disclosure when I think about professional.

Debbie:

Again, you know, use it freely as you wish. But really, I mean, I’m sure listeners, you’re getting a sense that this is, this really is, it explores all facets of living a life and how to advocate for yourself to show up more authentically for yourself in different spaces and support your nervous system and all of those things. So it’s just very comprehensive and it’s an adorable little book too. I’ll post a picture for those of you on the show notes page so you can see it but definitely check it out. Is there anything that we haven’t touched upon in this conversation that you would want to make sure listeners take away about this project? Maybe you could close them by telling listeners where they can follow you, sign up for your newsletter and learn more about your work.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

Mm -hmm. Yeah, so Neurodivergent Insights is my kind of, never know what to call it, my name, my brand, my something. That’s how you find me. On Instagram, neurodivergent underscore insights, also on LinkedIn and Facebook. My website neurodivergentinsights.com and then yes, as Debbie mentioned, my newsletter, which you can, there’s places on my website where you can sign up for that. Yeah, those are the places folks can find me.

Debbie:

Awesome listeners, I’ll have links in the show notes and definitely I highly encourage you to sign up for Megan and his newsletter. I don’t get a lot of newsletters, but that is one that I look forward to receiving every week. I think it’s a weekly, but it’s great content and your podcast is great too. It’s one that when I meet with my parent community, some you know, one of your previous episodes always comes up in conversation. So really lovely kind of deep dives, theoretical, philosophical, thoughtful conversations. So I will stop gushing now. Congratulations on the new book. It’s again that listeners Self Care for Autistic People. As you’re listening to this, it’s out in the world. Definitely check that out. And thank you so much for everything you shared today and stopping by the show.

Dr. Megan Anna Neff:

Thank you so much for having me. I’ve appreciated it.